Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[Tax-chick]

The United Church of Christ used the Lord’s Prayer, too ... at least when we were attending in the 70’s.

[ears_to_hear]

You're merely speculating with no data, and in point of fact you're wrong. (I hope you really mean "concentrating" and not "consecrating".)

That is what Catholics HERE have told me when we say they are praying to and worshiping Mary .So are you worshiping and meditating on Christ or Mary?

[Tax-chick]

But wine has the beneficial antioxidants. You want to live forever, don’t you?

[Frank Sheed]

He left us a Church that He Himself configured, not us:

(iii) The function of Peter

Our Lord established His kingdom with officials through whom He could dispense His gifts of truth by way of doctrine, and of life by sacrament. The kingdom was to be in the souls of men since apart from that it could have borne no fruit; but it was not to be only in the souls of men. We must complete such phrases of Our Lord as “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you” and such phrases as “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a city upon a hill.” But for the protection of the truth and the preservation of the integrity of the channels of life, Our Lord made still further provision by choosing one of the Apostles and giving him special functions. When He first called the Apostles, He said to Simon, the brother of Andrew, “Thou shalt be called Peter”—a word which means “rock.” When the end of His time upon earth was drawing near, He made clear the reason for the change of names, “Blessed art thou Simon son of Jonah; it is not flesh and blood, it is my Father in heaven that has revealed this to thee. And I tell thee this in my turn, that thou art Peter and it is upon this rock that I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; and I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shalt be loosed in heaven” (Mt 16:18-19).

At the Last Supper, when the dispute arose among the Apostles as to which would have first place in His kingdom, Our Lord settled it with the words; “Simon, Simon, Satan has claimed power over you all, so He can sift you like wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith may not fail; when after a while, thou has come back to me, it is for thee to be the support of thy brethern” (Lk 22:31-32).

After His Resurrection, Our Lord appears among the Apostles and three times asks Peter if he loves Him. As Peter answers each question with an affirmation of his love, Our Lord utters the three phrases: “Feed My lambs,” “Feed My lambs,” “Feed My Sheep” (Jn 21:16-17). Taking any one of these episodes, we must see that the function entrusted to Peter was very great; taking them all together, we see it is enormous. In the first, he is to be the rock upon whom the Church (which Our Lord here calls also the kingdom of heaven) is to be founded. He is to have supremacy in the kingdom, for Our Lord promised him the “keys” which are a symbol of supremacy; and he is to have a final power of regulation and discipline, for his permissions and prohibitions are to be ratified in heaven. At the Last Supper, something is made explicit which before was certainly present but implicitly. He is to safeguard the unity of the brethern, whom otherwise Satan would scatter like chaff, because by the prayer of God his own faith would not fail, would be unfailable—which brings us to the very word infallibility. The third is the richest of all. Peter is shepherd the whole flock, the little ones and the great. He is to feed them. With what food? The spirit of man needs three kinds of food and Our Lord came to provide them. “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.” So truth is food. “My meat is to do the Will of Him that sent Me.” So law is food. ‘The food I shall give is My flesh for the life of the world.” So sacrament is food. Peter must feed the flock with truth and law and sacrament.

Notice most particularly how in all this Our Lord, about to leave the earth, is conferring upon Peter His own special titles. Christ is the foundation (1 Cor 3:11), and He makes Peter the foundation. Christ is the key-bearer—”He bears the key of David so that none may shut when He opens, none open when He shuts” (Rev 3:7)—and He makes Peter the key-bearer. It is to Christ that the power belongs to hold these whom God has given Him, but He gives to Peter the charge of being a support to the brethern. Our Lord had said, “I am the good shepherd”—and He makes Peter to be the shepherd. All this is in line with what we have already seen about the Church as a whole. Our Lord was truthgiver and lifegiver, and the Church is to be truthgiver and lifegiver: that is to say, He will continue to give truth and life through the Church. Our Lord is rock and key-bearer and shepherd: He will continue all that each title implies through Peter. Church or Peter, it is all the same. Neither matters save as an instrument through which Christ has chosen to work.

This then was the provision Our Lord made for the souls of men that they might come to Him, be united with Him and receive His gifts till the end of time. His kingdom would grow as it moved outward and onward toward its two limiting points—all the nations of the earth and the end of time—and there would be some increase of complexity in its structure to meet new needs created by its growth. But all would be within the living framework He established upon earth—one kingdom with a smaller body of officials serving the great body of plain citizens, and among the officials one who is head over the rest and the servant of all. So the kingdom was, when the Holy Spirit descended upon it at Pentecost. So it still is. So till the end of the world it will be.

Theology and Sanity, Frank J. Sheed, ISBN 0-89870-470-7, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1993, Part III. Creation. 20. The Kingdom, (iii) The function of Peter, pp. 286-289.

[AnAmericanMother]

We've been trying to tell you -- the meditations are on the Life of Christ!

Here are the Mysteries:

The Joyful:

The Annunciation
The Visitation
The Nativity
The Presentation
The Finding in the Temple

Luminous:

The Baptism of Christ
The Miracle at Cana in Galilee
The Coming of the Kingdom
The Transfiguration
The Institution of the Eucharist

Sorrowful:

The Agony in the Garden
The Scourging at the Pillar
The Crowning With Thorns
The Via Dolorosa
The Crucifixion

Glorious:

The Resurrection
The Ascension
The Descent of the Holy Spirit
The Assumption of Mary
The Coronation of Mary

If somebody absolutely freaks out about the last two (although they prefigure the blessed soul's reward in Heaven), they can just think about the other 18.

[Frank Sheed]

This is irrelevant as Satan can and does imitate God and preform false miracles.

Have you ever heard "in Unity there is strength?" Satan is good at doing that--sowing disunity. In fact St. John recounts in his Gospel that Christ told Peter that the Apostles would be "sifted like wheat" but that He (Jesus) had prayed to the Father for him (Peter) to keep his brothers united. Sounds like a serious passage to me.

[ears_to_hear]

Really? I have attended MANY services at Baptist churches, AOG's , Methodist ,.Wesleyan, Nazarene, Church of Christ and many other non denominational churches, I am a Presbyterian and I have never heard the "Our Father" used as a part of the service NEVER.

Now if you are a Catholic and were attending an ecumenical service, perhaps it was prayed in an attempt at some false unity,

The fact is we do not use it .I have never seen or heard it used in 30 years.

[AnAmericanMother]

Never been to a UCC service . . . just never happened to wind up there. Been to JW services, Pagan services, Hindu weddings, you name it . . . but never heard the Lord's Prayer there.

Heard of a church today that I had never heard of before -- the Church of Unity. Not sure what it is, going to try to find out because a college friend of my daughter is a member.

. . . . at least she is now, until my daughter with her Excess of Convert Zeal gets after her . . .

. . . sometimes she scares me, she really does . . . she even makes Monsignor lift his eyebrows. She's back in town for the summer, working at our vet's office and singing in the choir on Sundays.

[ears_to_hear]

I meditate on both.

How remarkable your mind must be !

James puts it this way

Jam 1:8 A double minded man [is] unstable in all his ways.
Jam 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded.

[GoLightly]

Most Protestants do not say the "Our Father" Let alone repeat it over and over. I have to wonder if he was ever really a protestant.

I say it pretty much every day, but not over & over again. I've no poetry in my heart, so most of my prayers are far from elegant.

[Pyro7480]

God glories in His saints. All creation gives glory to God. All, meaning including the demons. It infuriates Satan and his minions to no end that even now, they as part of creation, gives glory to God. They continue to rebel and blaspheme, but they can’t help the fact that they were created by Him.

[AnAmericanMother]

My mother was raised Presbyterian, and I went to Peachtree Pres with my grandparents quite a bit. They always said the Lord's Prayer after the Prayers of the People.

I'm looking at an Order of Worship for a Presbyterian church on line right now - it's the first one I came to.

Give Thanks to God

The Prayers of the People begin this portion of the service. These prayers of intercession for individuals, the church, and the world may be spoken or sung and conclude with The Lord's Prayer.

[Frank Sheed]

My body is a vehicle for my soul. My soul will live forever. I know that this life is just a short journey that leads into the next no matter how many operations, exercises, etc. we might do.

There is an Army base not far from here. A veteran from Vietnam returned and was processed out of the Army. He was struck by a bus as he left the base and was crossing the boulevard passing the main gate.

When your number is up, it is up...

[tioga]

The center of the Rosary is Jesus. To me, Mary represents man’s acceptance of Jesus. We should all accept, love and devote ourselves to Jesus. When I pray the first joyful mystery and read the Biblical quotes referring to the Annunciation I start right out embracing Jesus. Mary said yes...and so do I......I am immersed in His life from His Conception to His Ascension.

I pray and spend time with Jesus in other prayer as well.

[AnAmericanMother]

An awful lot of Presbys out there are saying the Lord's Prayer as part of their Order of Worship

[Ransomed]

I would think a big part of worshipping would be to admit that something is being worshipped. I’m Catholic and I don’t worship Mary, and no Catholic pal of mine has ever admitted to me that, “yes, the Protestants are right, I’ve been worshipping Mary all this time!! Here is the secret Mary worshipping handshake, don’t tell or you’ll swing by yer rosaries!!!” Hell, even satanists admit to worshipping satan, why in the world do you think Catholics wouldn’t admit to worshipping Mary if that’s what they actually do? Fear of receiving the scorn of their fellow Christians?

Freegards

[ears_to_hear]

I assume that is the Presbyterian church USA ? We do not use any prayer books in the PCA.

[Frank Sheed]

If I had been in the Navy when I was younger, I think I would have some choice poem of his tattooed on my arm. As it is, I just love the “rosary quote” as he ran for Parliament.

F

[Enosh]

"We prefer to approach the throne of God with our words"

Jesus, of course, is the Word.

Our Catholic brothers agree with us on this one.

[AnAmericanMother]

Cracks me up every time I read it.

I understand that the crowd responded very favorably. Englishmen love (1) an underdog; (2) an honest man.