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The New Testament: In Medio Ecclesiae
Catholic Faith ^ | Jan 2001 | Thomas Storck

Posted on 06/07/2007 4:07:42 AM PDT by markomalley

The New Testament: In Medio Ecclesiae
by Thomas Storck


One of the strangest things about the theology of Protestants and of others, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, who claim to base their doctrine on Sacred Scripture, is their use of Scripture as a judge, even an enemy, of the Catholic Church. That is, by treating Scripture as independent of the Church, instead of as something produced by the Church, they erect the Bible, particularly the New Testament, into something it was never intended to be, an entirely independent source of sacred doctrine. In this article I intend to show from the text of the New Testament, especially from the Acts of the Apostles, that invaluable history of the Church in the early Apostolic era, that the text of the New Testament must always be viewed in medio ecclesiae, in the midst of the Church, something of, by and for the Church, a book that cannot be understood apart from the Church and which can never rightly be separated from the Church, let alone made into a judge of the Church.

The first thing to understand, and a fact that can hardly be denied, is that the creation of the Catholic Church preceded the creation of the New Testament. Thus all the documents of the New Testament, the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles, all the various epistles, and the Book of Revelation (Apocalypse), were written by members of the Church, presuppose the existence of the Church, and reflect her teaching and liturgical practice. In the Acts of the Apostles we possess an account of the spread of the Gospel from the time of the Ascension of our Lord until shortly after St. Paul's arrest and detention in Rome. Any open-minded reader of Acts must see that from the very beginning it focuses on the work of the Church. Although all the details are by no means clear to us, the fact of the Church appears on every page of the book of Acts and must be obvious to anyone who looks at it without prejudice. Let us take a tour through that book to highlight some of the major points which reflect or presuppose the existence and doctrine of the Church.

Before doing so though, it would be well to say a word about when the Acts of the Apostles was written. For if it is not, in fact, an historical account of the earliest life of the Church, compiled from contemporary accounts, in fact written by St. Luke, companion of St. Paul, then its historical value is much less. The traditional date of the composition of Acts is about 63 A.D., that is, a mere thirty years after our Lord's Ascension. Thus concerning those events which Luke himself did not witness, such as the Ascension or the day of Pentecost, he was able to interview the participants themselves. Therefore we need have no hesitation about accepting the work as a perfectly reliable historical document. With this in mind, let us begin our journey through Acts, focusing on those elements which in some way involve the place and role of the Church.

At the very beginning of Acts, right after Jesus's Ascension is narrated, we have the account of the selection of Matthias to take the place of Judas among the Apostles. We should note here that it was Peter who initiated Matthias's selection, but for the purposes of this article, we will concentrate on the fact that already this early band of followers of Jesus Christ is acting, not only like a corporate body, but a body with officers and procedures, and at least some sense of its future mission. It was not simply some unorganized band of men who were inspired by the teachings of Jesus or who individually received enlightenment from the Holy Spirit, but a regularly constituted organization. In other words, here already we have in germ the Catholic idea of the Church, a body with officers, created by God and which received from him its authority to carry out the work of making disciples of all nations and bringing the means of grace to the human race.

Next follow the events of the day of Pentecost, when God the Holy Spirit came upon the early Catholics and endowed them with the power of preaching the Gospel throughout the world. Here also the institution of the Church is apparent: Peter preaches the first Catholic sermon, and "those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls" (Acts 2:41). Added to what? To the Church, of course, and added by means of an external and public rite, Baptism, not by a merely subjective salvation experience. And what did these new converts do? They "devoted themselves to the apostles's teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers" (Acts 2:42).

Here we would do well to pause and look more closely at this last phrase, "to the breaking of bread and the prayers." What exactly does this mean? We, of course, can be sure that it refers to the Eucharist, to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. But does the text say this exactly and without any doubt? No, for this is just one example of how the New Testament presupposes knowledge of the Church's practices in order to be fully understood. Were we "Bible-only" Christians, and seeking to emulate the life of the Jerusalem church, what would we do? Break up pieces of bread while we engaged in prayer? The point is that the book of Acts, like the rest of the New Testament, does not explain a very great amount of what it mentions or alludes to, simply because St. Luke was assuming that its readers, faithful Catholics, would understand it in a Catholic sense. We will see this happen many times as we proceed with our discussion.

The next incident in Acts that we will look at is the institution of the order of deacons in chapter 6. When confronted with a disagreement between Greek-speaking and Aramaic-speaking Catholics, the Apostles created and ordained the first deacons to take charge of the distribution of food. Here again the Apostles act with consciousness of their own authority. They clearly consider the Church to be one body of believers over which they rule. And all this happens, we should note, before any book of the New Testament exists. Unlike Protestants, they do not "search the scriptures" to find out what they should do, because either by command of Christ Himself, given to them orally when He was on earth, or by the continuing inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they, as rulers of the Church, know what to do to meet the needs and continuing crises of her existence. They clearly claim an authority that derives immediately from Jesus Christ, not simply from Jesus Christ by means of the written Scriptures, as Protestants today perforce would. The question of the creation of deacons, moreover, is akin to the question of the Sacrament of Confirmation or the conferring of the Holy Spirit. Let us look at how Acts treats this subject.

Chapter 8 of Acts contains the account of the visit of Peter and John to Samaria so that the new converts there "might receive the Holy Spirit" (8:14-15). The way St. Luke recounts the experience of various new converts with the reception of the Holy Spirit is a good example of how the bare text very often cannot be understood apart from knowledge of the Church's doctrines and practices. On the day of Pentecost God the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles and the other members of the Church (chap. 3), and Peter promises the three thousand who were about to be baptized that they "shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (3:38), but nothing is said about there being a sepa-rate rite for this. What can we conclude from that? Nothing really, though the "Bible-only" Christian might wonder about the correct manner that the Holy Spirit is to be given to believers. Indeed, in the account of the Ethiopian eunuch who was baptized by Philip (Acts 8:27-39), there is no mention of the newly-baptized receiving the Holy Spirit. Though after Paul is converted he is told that he is to be "filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 9:17), again nothing is said about a separate rite for this, only that he was baptized (verse 18). And finally, in chapter 10, Cornelius, a gentile, together with his friends and relatives, receives the Holy Spirit while Peter is preaching, and immediately afterwards they are baptized by Peter's command. So here we see accounts of people being baptized with no mention of their receiving the Holy Spirit, and yet of others who receive this gift before their Baptism. But in chapter 8, as I said, Peter and John are expressly sent to Samaria because the Holy Spirit "had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." And those Apostles then "laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit" (Acts 8:17). Now what can these various narratives teach us?

I think that the "Bible-only" Christian would be perplexed here, or at least he ought to be. If he seeks to follow the teaching and practice of the New Testament Church, how is he to handle the matter of receiving the Holy Spirit? Is this for everyone or only for some? And who can confer the Holy Spirit? If only apostles, then is there anyone living today who can do this? But Catholics, knowing the practice of the Church, can see that Luke simply omits to mention the conferring of the Holy Spirit on the three thou-sand converts of the day of Pentecost or on the Ethiopian eunuch. There is no implication here that receiving the Holy Spirit is optional or simply a part of baptism. And although the early Church undoubtedly witnessed many supernatural charisms that no longer are given or are no longer common, in this matter of receiving the Holy Spirit we can see the current Catholic practice of the Sacrament of Confirmation (or chrismation). All the newly baptized are to receive the Holy Spirit, which is the reason Peter and John were sent to Samaria. And since, at this early date, it is likely that the Apostles had not yet ordained or consecrated anyone else to the priesthood, there was no one else able to confer Confirmation, which is why they had to ask Jerusalem to send someone to administer this sacrament. And if in any particular account of someone's conversion the reception of the Holy Spirit is not mentioned, this is simply an oversight by the author, it does not imply that this is optional or unimportant. But the reader of Acts who does not have the framework of the Church's teaching to help him understand has no way of knowing this. He would be in doubt about who is to receive the Holy Spirit, when (before or after Baptism), and by whom the Holy Spirit is to be conferred.

This same confusion about the sacraments is reflected in the interpretation of some Protestants (the Berean Baptists) about I Corinthians 1:17. There Paul is deploring the divisions in the church of Corinth and he states that he is grateful because he himself had baptized very few of the Catholics there. Then he says (verse 17): "For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel." From this these Protestants have concluded that baptism is optional or unnecessary and that the Church in the time of St. Paul did not regard it as obligatory. Again, looking at this passage with the Catholic fullness of faith, we recognize simply one of St Paul's characteristic overstatements. But how are Protestants, using only the bare text of Holy Scripture, to deal with this objection?

In a similar vein, the question of who is the proper subject of baptism has also been a controversy between Catholics and many Protestants. That is, can infants be baptized? Does the New Testament say anything about this one way or the other? In fact, the text of the New Testament is not clear on this matter, but we might pause and look at a phrase that occurs in connection with Baptism, namely that someone is baptized `and all of his household' or a similar phrasing. Does `all his household' include children below the age of reason? From the text of the New Testatment, we do not know definitely, for some Protestants would argue that, just as the statement, "All the family enjoys reading books," excludes infants, so here there is no implication that infants are included either. The point is, that the New Testament text is not definite. But would Jesus Christ leave his followers in doubt about a matter of such great importance? Would he leave his followers merely a book, a book that can and has been interpreted a thousand different ways? Without the existence of the teaching, believing and worshipping Church, we would be in the dark about not only Baptism but about many equally important questions of faith and practice.

To return to the Acts of the Apostles, in chapter 13 we begin to read of Paul's various missionary journeys. And here again we see the Church in action, for Luke states that Paul, and his companion St. Barnabas, returned to the cities where they had preached the Gospel and "appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting . . . " (14:23). Now who are these "elders?" They are previously mentioned in Acts 11:30, but, unlike the order of deacons, no account is given of their creation. And to make matters more confusing, they are sometimes equated with another office, that of bishop (e.g., Acts 20:17 and 28, Titus 1:5-7). What can one conclude from this? If one looks at the names of the officials who lead various Protestant congregations today, sometimes one will find a pastor, sometimes an elder, occasionally even a bishop. For, again, the text of the New Testament does not set forth clearly a system of church government. A Christian who seeks to rely solely on the Bible would be confused by the variety of titles and functions. But we Catholics know that whatever names may have been used in the early Church, there are three distinct orders of ministry, bishops, priests and deacons, that are of divine institution. But from this we can see two important facts: First, that the New Testament church regarded itself as an institution which required officials, and that these officials were not free-lance agents nor did they receive their authority from their congregations; and secondly, that the bare text of the New Testament does not allow us to make any certain judgment about the powers and authority of bishops or elders and their relationship with the Apostles. Again, only our knowledge of the Church and her teachings and our recognition of the fact that, despite our inability always to understand the meaning of some of the New Testament passages, we have in the constant practice of the living Church a sure method of interpretation, allows us to avoid the confusion that ought to exist for one seeking in the biblical text alone all his theological and ecclesiastical knowledge.

In the next chapter of Acts (chap. 15) occurs one of the great events of the Apostolic Church, the Council of Jerusalem, called to decide whether the newly-converted had to submit to circumcision and keep the Mosiac law in order to become Christians. Or in other words, whether all Catholics had first to become Jews. This event alone ought to be enough to put to rest forever Protestant notions of ecclesiology, for in this serious crisis about what Christians must believe and how they are to act, it is not by consulting the Scriptures nor by individual prophecies from the Holy Spirit, but by the hierarchy meeting together and listening to the Apostles, particularly Peter, that a decision is reached. And when a decision is reached, not only is it imposed on the whole Church authoritatively, but the actual decree that is sent out begins: "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us . . . "! (15:28). What group of Protestant pastors would ever presume to speak in the name of God the Holy Spirit himself? Yet here the Catholic Church does so with no hesitation or hint of embarrassment. And to this day the Catholic Church continues to speak with authority and the world is still astonished by it, much as it was astonished at that Church's Founder "for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes" (Matthew 7:29).

Although there is much else that might be mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles, Msgr. Ronald Knox sums up well the career of the Church as it is recounted in that book:

From the very outset of the Acts, you have the impression that the Church has sprung into being ready-made. Not that it has no lessons to learn from experience, needs no fresh revelations to guide it. But it knows already how to deal with each fresh situation that arises, and does so with a wonderful sureness of touch.

It would be beyond the scope of this article to review the entire New Testament in the same manner in which we have just reviewed parts of the Acts of the Apostles. But I would like to call attention to two more passages, Colossians 4:16 and I Thessalonians 5:27, each of which also illustrates something of the Catholic nature of the New Testament Church. In these passages St. Paul commands the letters he has just written to be read aloud in the congregations. In Colossians he writes: "And when this letter has been read among you, have it read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and see that you read also the letter from Laodicea." And in I Thessalonians, "I adjure you by the Lord that this letter be read to all the brethren." Now what seems interesting to me about these verses, is that very likely the practice of reading such letters aloud was common and was carried out in the case of all of St. Paul's letters, even though only twice does he specifically mention it. And what does this mean? It means that, unlike the Protestant notion of biblical interpretation, the Pauline letters were meant to be read in the context of the local church by the local clergy, and no doubt commented upon and the difficult passages and expressions explained for the benefit of the faithful. There was no notion of each believer taking his Bible into his study, reading it and coming up with his own interpretation. The Scriptures were read and interpreted within the local church. In fact, doubtless at least some of those in the congregations Paul addressed could not even read. So here again, when we actually look at the practice of the Church of the New Testament, far from seeing in it Protestant ideas and Protestant practices, we see ample evidence of Catholic faith and practice, often, it is true, not fully grown, but existing in germ. And in many other passages, we have allusions to practices and deeds which are not explained by the passage, and leave the reader in doubt about what the Apostolic practice really was. In both these cases the Catholic Church is the key to understanding the New Testament. As Catholics we must learn to see the New Testament as the prime book produced by the Church, a book that is in many ways unintelligible without the Church. If we do this, then we can rejoice with the Apostles and St. Paul, as we repeat:


  1. The Catholic Church in the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation of the Second Vatican Council, Dei Verbum, nos. 9 and 10, teaches that "Sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God, which is entrusted to the Church . . . It is clear, therefore, that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others."

  2. Catholic Biblical Association, A Commentary on the New Testament (Catholic Biblical Association, 1942) p. 365; John E. Steinmueller, A Companion to Scripture Studies, (New York : Joseph F. Wagner, c. 1943), vol. 3, p. 219. John A. T. Robinson, in his important book, Redating the New Testament (Philadelphia: Westminster, c. 1976), suggests a date of "62 or soon after" (p. 92). Robinson in this book carefully reexamines a hundred years of biblical scholarship and reaches surprisingly traditional conclusions about the dates of the New Testament books. On the other hand, Richard J. Dillon and Joseph A. Fitzmyer in The Jerome Biblical Commentary (Englewood Cliffs, N.J. : Prentice-Hall, c. 1968) give a late date of 80-85 A.D. for Acts, which depends on their late date for Luke (p. 165). But their whole argu-ment seems to me vitiated by a fallacy of positing the consequent. Cf. pp. 118-19.
  3. Although this article does not explicitly deal with the primacy of the Apostle Peter, I will just note here that it is impossible not to see, from the text of the New Testament, that Peter was the leader of the apostles, and ipso facto, of the entire Church.
  4. Catholic writers would do well to apply the term Catholic more often to the earliest Christians, for if we truly believe that it was Jesus Christ who founded the Catholic Church, and no other church, then it follows that the apostles and the earliest Christians were Catholics, and rightly called by this name, although the name itself did not come into use, as far as we know, until some time later, St. Ignatius of Antioch (early 2nd century) making the first recorded use of the term.

  5. This occurs in Acts 16:15, 16:33 and I Corinthians 1:16.
  6. It is generally thought that in the early Church the titles bishop and elder were used interchangeably for the same office (that of priest) until approximately the time of the death of the Apostles. Elder in Greek is presbyteros, that is presbyter or priest.
  7. If someone were to read a diocesan newspaper without knowing anything about the Church, he might be confused by the use of the terms pastor, associate pastor, parish priest, monsignor, parochial vicar, curate, etc., and might conclude that they referred to different offices of ministry. And to make matters more confusing, in many countries monsignor is a term of address for a bishop.
  8. Ronald Knox, The Belief of Catholics (Garden City, N.Y. : Image, 1958) p. 119.

Thomas Storck writes from Maryland.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History
KEYWORDS: bible; luke; newtestament
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To: vladimir998
Actually, as J Van Engen notes in the Elwell Evangelical Dictionary, “Protestants once vigorously attacked all stories about Peter’s end, but the best evidence, as most scholars now agree, indicates that he in fact died a martyr in the time of Nero and that his cult originated very early in Rome, though Cullmann believes he was probably executed rather than buried at the present St. Peter’s on the Vatican Hill.”

Now that is an interesting statement: "his cult originated very early in Rome". One would not use that to describe the church founded by the apostle Peter, but it would be fitting to use it to describe the followers of Simon Magus, who came to Rome during the reign of Claudius and had a 25 year bishopric. And since Vatican Hill was a pagan graveyard where sorcerers, magicians, soothsayers, and seers, like Simon Magus were buried, one would expect to find his body buried there --- not Peter's. Peter's bones are in an ossuary at Dominus Flevit on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem where you would expect them to be.

141 posted on 06/07/2007 7:51:29 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
Good luck in your search. I don't think you will find anything until maybe the 3rd century. And while you are at it, check on that 42 AD date again, because Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus, and Hippolytus all tell us that it was Simon Magus who came to Rome in 42 AD and had a long ecclesiastical Roman bishopric there that ended under Nero ------ not Simon Peter.

NOW I REMEMBER YOU.

OK, never mind. We've had the discussion before. I've proven you wrong before. And I won't waste any more time on you.

Have a great night. I will, however, pray for you that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes of understanding. In the meantime, may God bless you. I leave you with the words of St. Paul:

Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of partisanship, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in that I rejoice.

And I, too, rejoice.


The rest of this post is for the listening audience...who might not be familiar with the refutation given several months ago...

Clement of Rome (1st Epistle to Rome, ch 5, circa 95 AD):

But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes. Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation. Through envy and jealousy the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours; and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.

St. Irenaeus (Adv. Haer, III.3, circa 175-180 AD)

2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.

Hippolytus (Refut. Haer. 6.15 circa 200-223 AD)

The disciples, then, of this (Magus), celebrate magical rites, and resort to incantations. And (they profess to) transmit both love-spells and charms, and the demons said to be senders of dreams, for the purpose of distracting whomsoever they please. But they also employ those denominated Paredroi." And they have an image of Simon (fashioned) into the figure of Jupiter, and (an image) of Helen in the form of Minerva; and they pay adoration to these." But they call the one Lord and the other Lady. And if any one amongst them, on seeing the images of either Simon or Helen, would call them by name, he is cast off, as being ignorant of the mysteries. This Simon, deceiving many3 in Samaria by his sorceries, was reproved by the Apostles, and was laid under a curse, as it has been written in the Acts. But he afterwards abjured the faith, and attempted these (aforesaid practices). And journeying as far as Rome,3 he fell in with the Apostles; and to him, deceiving many by his sorceries, Peter offered repeated opposition. This man, ultimately repairing to Â… (and) sitting under a plane tree, continued to give instruction (in his doctrines). And in truth at last, when conviction was imminent, in case he delayed longer, be stated that, if he were buried alive, he would rise the third day. And accordingly, having ordered a trench to be dug by his disciples,3 he directed himself to be interred there. They, then, executed the injunction given; whereas he remained (in that grave) until this day, for he was not the Christ. This constitutes the legendary system advanced by Simon, and from this Valentinus derived a starting-point (for his own doctrine. This doctrine, in point of fact, was the same with the it Simonian, though Valentinus) denominated under different titles: for "Nous," and "Aletheia," and "Logos," and "Zoe," and "Anthropos," and "Ecclesia," and Aeons of Valentinus, are confessedly the six roots of Simon, viz., "Mind" and "Intelligence," "Voice" and "Name," "Ratiocination" and "Reflection." But since it seems to us that we have sufficiently explained Simon's tissue of legends, let us see what also Valentinus asserts.

emphasis mine

The reader will note from the emphasized text that Peter rebuked this Simon Magus in Rome.

Hippolytus (On the end of the world, 49.1)

1. Peter preached the Gospel in Pontus, and Galatia, and Cappadocia, and Betania, and Italy, and Asia, and was afterwards crucified by Nero in Rome with his head downward, as he had himself desired to suffer in that manner.

Tertullian (Prescr. Adv. Haer, 32)

But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men,—a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. In exactly the same way the other churches likewise exhibit (their several worthies), whom, as having been appointed to their episcopal places by apostles, they regard as transmitters of the apostolic seed. Let the heretics contrive something of the same kind. For after their blasphemy, what is there that is unlawful for them (to attempt)? But should they even effect the contrivance, they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles, will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory, so the apostolic men would not have inculcated teaching different from the apostles, unless they who received their instruction from the apostles went and preached in a contrary manner. To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine. Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith.

Emphasis mine

Ibid, ch 36

Come now, you who would indulge a better curiosity, if you would apply it to the business of your salvation, run over the apostolic churches, in which the very thrones of the apostles are still pre-eminent in their places, in which their own authentic writings are read, uttering the voice and representing the face of each of them severally. Achaia is very near you, (in which) you find Corinth. Since you are not far from Macedonia, you have Philippi; (and there too) you have the Thessalonians. Since you are able to cross to Asia, you get Ephesus. Since, moreover, you are close upon Italy, you have Rome, from which there comes even into our own hands the very authority (of apostles themselves). How happy is its church, on which apostles poured forth all their doctrine along with their blood! where Peter endures a passion like his Lord's! where Paul wins his crown in a death like John's where the Apostle John was first plunged, unhurt, into boiling oil, and thence remitted to his island-exile!…

And there's more. But I think any reasonable reader should be able to see that it was the common belief that Peter resided in Rome...and was martyred there.

142 posted on 06/07/2007 8:12:43 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: P-Marlowe

The original autographs are long disappeared like the Ark of the Covenant. That we have what they contained is owing to Tradition, As for the Septuagent, I am unsure why you insist, with the rabbis, that only works in Hebrew are canonical. It suits their Tradition but not ours.


143 posted on 06/07/2007 8:21:28 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHOa)
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To: Bainbridge
Oh, your intention is to help smooth things out by calling the “Separated Brethren” schismatics? Yes, I know the dictionary definition. You are either deceitful or a fool.

Please refer to my post post #43, where I explain in exhaustive detail that I am not referring to an extremely small subset of them.

My intention is hardly to smooth things out with schismatics (see my usage of the term in post 43). My intention is to encourage my fellow Christians to put on the whole Armor of God so that the schismatics (see my usage in post 43) cannot wile them away.

While I may be a fool, I am not deceitful.

144 posted on 06/07/2007 8:22:05 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: Running On Empty
I think it’s personal to call someone a fool. Our Lord advised us against doing that.

It also is personal to call someone deceitful if you aren’t absolutely sure of that person has the intention to deceive.

Thanks.

Unlike some, I tried to thicken my skin before coming to Free Republic. So if somebody wishes to call me a fool, or deceitful, or worse, that's their business. Don't matter to me at all! A person who is hurt by name calling on an Internet board has no business posting on one.

But, again, thanks.

145 posted on 06/07/2007 8:24:45 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: RobbyS
The original autographs are long disappeared like the Ark of the Covenant.

One can piece together the original using deductive analysis in comparing all extant early manuscripts.

The fact of the matter is that I accept that God has preserved his word through the ages. It is the most well documented book in the history of the earth.

146 posted on 06/07/2007 8:31:30 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Bainbridge
You are either deceitful or a fool.

Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal!
147 posted on 06/07/2007 8:41:14 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: P-Marlowe

I agree that the Bible is probably the most reliable text in history, thousands of copies as opposed to hundreds for other ancient texts. However, “piecing together” requires a “priecer,” and one must know first which of the books are to be included in the collection.


148 posted on 06/07/2007 8:41:20 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHOa)
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To: Uncle Chip
Since Irenaeus wrote decades after Ignatius, how come Irenaeus doesn't call the Church in Rome "the Catholic Church". If it was so well known as such then how come its proper name as the "Catholic Church" is not used by Irenaeus or other writers until the 4th century.

This might come as a shock but the writings of Irenaeus and Ignatius were not influenced by the splintering of Christendom over a millenium later following the Reformation.

You're carrying way too much baggage from the 16th century onwards and projecting it back in time. Your whole thinking is colored by the actions of Protestant reformers whom Ignatius and Irenaeus never even dreamed of. Forget Luther, Calvin and the ongoing debate about whether we are the Catholic Church or the Roman Catholic Church. Instead, hop into your time machine and travel back to a time when the need to identify the spreading Christian religion as universal, or Catholic or catholic was not a pressing polemic issue. The exact point at which Christianity had spread sufficiently throughout the then known world for it to be named "catholic" or "Catholic" was not marked by an official declaration. Some writers may have used this term earlier than others. This does not sunder the connection of the present day Catholic Church to the first apostles. It simply indicates that there was not a synchronous adoption of the word "Catholic". And why would there need to be?

You've approached the topic with the preconceived idea that today's Catholic Church has no connection to the apostles and taken the fact that the name does not appear immediately, or is used sporadically in early Christian writings as proof of your hypothesis. Very loose logic. As if the early Church fathers knew they would have to prove apostolic succession to a generation of Protestant skeptics who would appear 20 centuries later and would have called themselves "The Catholic Church" from the get go, in the same way that I might name a newly formed organization "The Augusta Vintage Car Club".

Silly and very sloppy.

149 posted on 06/07/2007 8:41:25 PM PDT by marshmallow
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To: RobbyS

Do you know the name of God?


150 posted on 06/07/2007 9:02:33 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

I know that his name is not P-Marlowe.


151 posted on 06/07/2007 11:14:36 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHOa)
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To: RobbyS
Seriously.

Do you know the name of God?

152 posted on 06/07/2007 11:20:23 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

Seriously, which name do you want?


153 posted on 06/07/2007 11:31:36 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHOa)
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To: RobbyS

Never mind.


154 posted on 06/07/2007 11:36:35 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: marshmallow
LOL!!!

See Post #142.

you can add error-ridden to your list of concerns...

155 posted on 06/08/2007 2:34:25 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: markomalley
And there's more. But I think any reasonable reader should be able to see that it was the common belief that Peter resided in Rome...and was martyred there.

Nice avoidance of the issue put before you. None of those quotes say that Peter was Bishop of Rome for a day, or a year, much less 25 years. Furthermore, residing somewhere does not make one a bishop --- otherwise we could all assume that title.

All those quotes do is demonstrates the evolution of the legend of Peter in Rome --- with later writers adding their own little touches to the legend from apocryphal literature, culminating with Eusebius who can't find anybody to cite for his outrageous statement except the blue sky over Rome.

Where is this great legend in the early writings of Josephus, Tacitus, Justin Martur, Clement of Rome. How do you get any kind of Roman Bishopric for Peter out of what Irenaeus said. And neither Tertullian nor Hippolytus say anything about Peter being the Bishop of Rome. The legend of Peter grew out of the apocryphal literature of the time, showing that even church fathers were often incapable of separating fact from fiction.

There is more evidence that Simon Magus had the 25 year bishopric in Rome leaving a Christian cult behind when he died than there is that Simon Peter was there at all, much less a bishop there.

156 posted on 06/08/2007 4:48:49 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip; markomalley
I don't have all day to refute you on this, so I'll be brief.

From Tertullian's quote as posted by markomalley:

For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. In exactly the same way the other churches likewise exhibit (their several worthies), whom, as having been appointed to their episcopal places by apostles, they regard as transmitters of the apostolic seed. Let the heretics contrive something of the same kind.

From this statement, we see that an Apostolic See was planted in Rome by St. Peter. Only the Apostles or their successors (the bishops) could consecrate a bishop. We do know that St. Clement regarded himself the successor to St. Peter in this regard based upon his writings.

There is more evidence that Simon Magus had the 25 year bishopric in Rome leaving a Christian cult behind when he died than there is that Simon Peter was there at all, much less a bishop there.

Yet modern historians (many of whom have no reason to support mainstream Christianity) seem to have missed this point; very curious indeed.

157 posted on 06/08/2007 5:08:20 AM PDT by GCC Catholic (Pray for your priests and seminarians...)
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To: marshmallow
Silly and very sloppy.

Yes, it was very silly and sloppy of Ignatius, Clement, Justin Matryr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, all the early patriarchs until Eusebius, who was under the employ of Pontiff Constantine [under whom the term "catholic Church" was capitalized and capitalized upon], to forget to write about Peter's mythological Bishopric in Rome.

That sloppiness required Eusebius [under the employ of Pontiff Constantine] to have to pluck that Bishopric out of the thin air over Vatican Hill, or dig it up from the shallow graves below, where of course the bones of Simon Magus [the Simon who was the Bishop of a Roman Christian cult] lie to this day.

Yes --- very silly and sloppy of those early patriarchs to say so much about Simon Magus there in Rome and so little about Peter. Their sloppiness made Eusebius and subsequent RCC propagandists work their poor little imaginations so hard to try to make something appear out of nothing.

158 posted on 06/08/2007 5:39:27 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: GCC Catholic
For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter.

Then Tertullian disagrees with Irenaeus who says that Peter and Paul, not Peter alone, appointed Linus as the first bishop of Rome --- not Clement. So who is right?

And many church historians say that until the middle of the 2nd century, the churches everywhere, even in Rome, were managed not by a single bishop or presbyter, but by a college of presbyters.

Yet modern historians (many of whom have no reason to support mainstream Christianity) seem to have missed this point; very curious indeed.

Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, even Eusebius never missed it. Eusebius even complained that the disciples of Simon Magus, almost 300 years after his death, were pouring into the church of his day bringing their heresies and idolatries with them.

159 posted on 06/08/2007 5:57:36 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
Point well made; This is what I get for thinking before my coffee kicks in. The Catholic Encyclopedia explains the discrepancy in the ordering: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm. Also, it is entirely possible that this passage refers to ordination to the priesthood, which also can only be done by the Apostles and their successors.

Also, Eusebius' complaints only make it clear that Simon Magus was in Rome and had heretical followers. It does not prove that Simon Peter was NOT in Rome, and it does not prove that the See of Peter, as led by Linus, Clement, and others, were the followers of Simon Magus. Besides, you missed my point, namely that many modern historians would probably love to use your argument to undermine Christianity in general and the Catholic Church specifically, yet they don't.

160 posted on 06/08/2007 6:22:08 AM PDT by GCC Catholic (Pray for your priests and seminarians...)
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