Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Eucharist: The Lord's Supper
Catholic Biblical Apologetics ^ | July 23, 2004 | Paul Flanagan and Robert Schihl

Posted on 06/10/2007 4:48:46 AM PDT by markomalley

Roman Catholic Christians share with most Christians the faith that Jesus Christ, on the night he was betrayed, ate a final or last supper with his Apostles. This final meal was also the celebration of the Jewish Passover or Feast of the Unleavened Bread which commemorated the passing over of the Jews from the death in slavery to the Egyptians to life in the Promised Land.

Christians differ in the meaning this Last Supper has to them and the Church today. Catholic Christians together with other historical Christian Churches (e.g., Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Christians, Lutherans, Anglicans and some Episcopalians, etc.) believe the literal words of Jesus - that the bread and wine are truly his body and blood. Other later Christian Churches profess a mere symbolic meaning to the words of Jesus.

The faith of the Catholic Church is based on both a fundamental principle of hermeneutics and the constant faith of the Church from Apostolic times.

The Catholic Church teaches that the first principle of hermeneutics--the science of the translation and interpretation of the Bible--is the literal meaning of the text.

Spiritus Paraclitus Benedict XV, September 15, 1920
As Jerome insisted, all biblical interpretation rests upon the literal sense ...
Divino Afflante Spiritus, Pius XII, September 30, 1943
... discern and define that sense of the biblical words which is called literal ... so that the mind of the author may be made clear. ... the exegete must be principally concerned with the literal sense of the Scriptures.

The definition of the literal sense:
The sense which the human author directly intended and which his words convey.

The first writer of the New Testament was the apostle Paul. His Letter to the Corinthians was written as early as 56 AD, earlier than the first Gospel, Mark's, written about 64 AD. Paul was also not an eyewitness to what he wrote but testifies to his source.

1 Cor 11:23-29
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

The next New Testament text in chronological order would have been Mark's Gospel. Written about 64 AD, in Rome, Mark, not an eyewitness, probably heard the account of the Last Supper he recorded from the Apostle Peter.

Mk 14:22-24
While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, and said, "Take it; this is my body." Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it. He said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed for many."

The third account of the Last Supper could be Matthew's. Matthew, the tax collector Levi, was an eyewitness to the meal. He was one of the twelve Apostles. Matthew probably wrote his Gospel in the 70's.

Mt 26:26-28
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body." Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins."

Luke's account of the Last Supper, written from the standpoint of a Gentile convert and a non-eyewitness, probably heard the details of the Last Supper from Paul. Luke was a traveling companion of Paul. Luke also wrote in the 70's.

Lk 22:15-20
He (Jesus) said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, for, I tell you, I shall not eat it (again) until there is fulfillment in the kingdom of God." Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said, "Take this and share it among yourselves; for I tell you (that) from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me." And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you."

The beloved disciple, John, the last of the New Testament writers, wrote his Gospel in the 90's. John was an eyewitness to the events of the Last Supper (Jn 6:30-68).

Jn 6:53-56
Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him."

Hence Catholic Christian belief in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist rests upon the literal meaning of the words of the Last Supper as recorded by the Evangelists and Paul.

The uniformity of expression across the first four authors affirms the literalness. Belief in the real presence demands faith--the basis of new life as called for by Christ throughout scripture. But faith in signs conferring what they signify is the basis also for the Incarnation--appearances belying true meaning. The true significance of the real presence is sealed in John's gospel. Five times in different expressions, Jesus confirmed the reality of what he means.

Jn 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.
Jn 6:53
Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Jn 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life.
Jn 6:55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Jn 6:56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

The best way a person can make a clear literal point is repetition of the same message in different ways. Jesus did this. Those around him clearly understood what he was saying--cannibalism and the drinking of blood--both forbidden by Mosaic Law.

Jn 6:60,66
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?" ... As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

Had these disciples mistaken the meaning of Jesus' words, Jesus would surely have known and corrected them. He didn't. They had clearly understood his meaning--Jesus' flesh was to be really eaten; his blood to be really drunk.

Non believers often respond that even at the Last Supper, the apostles did not sense that they had flesh in their hands and blood in their cup. But Jesus is God. The creative literalness of the words: "This is my body; this is my blood" must be believed. God cannot lie. And God can turn bread into flesh and wine into blood without the appearances of bread and wine changing.

Medieval philosophers and theologians called this expression of Divine Truth and Creative Power "transubstantiation". Yes, God can change the substance of any created matter while the appearances remain unchanged. And this demands faith.

Paul confirms elsewhere in his letters the reality of the real presence.

1 Cor 10:16
The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

The persuasion of the Church from Apostolic times about the objective reality of these words of Christ is clear from many documents.

Irenaeus (Asia Minor, 140 - 202), Tertullian (Rome, 160 - 220), Cyprian (Carthage, 200 - 258) are just a few of the earliest who attest to the objective reality of the words of Christ.

In the Church in Alexandria, Athanasius (293 - 373) and Cyril (376 - 444) equally attest to the literal meaning of the words of Christ at the Last Supper.

In the Church in Palestine, Cyril (Jerusalem, 315 - 387) and Epiphanius (Salamis, 367 - 403) also affirm in their teaching the same reality.

Unanimity is found across the universal church until the 11th century. Berengar (Tours, France, 1000 - 1088) was one of the first to deny the real presence by arguing that Christ is not physically present, but only symbolically.

The Council of Rome (a local council), 1079, taught against Berengar that the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ.

By the 16th century, some Reformers (excluding Luther) also taught that Christ's presence in the Eucharist was only figurative or metaphorical. Since there were other opinions being taught as truth (figurative presence and metaphorical presence) a teaching authority (see Chapter 5) had to be appealed to discern error from the truth. The way of the Church was to follow the model of Acts 15.

The Council of Trent (1545 - 1563) defined the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the Eucharist as both the continuing sacrifice of Christ and a real sacrament. The institution of the Eucharist as sacrament was contained in the words "Do this in remembrance of me."

The Mass: Synagogue Service and Last Supper

Roman Catholic Christians celebrate the Eucharist in the liturgical act called the Mass. The word Mass comes from the Latin missa ("sent"). It was taken from the formula for dismissing the congregation: Ite missa est ("Go, the Eucharist has been sent forth") referring to the ancient custom of sending consecrated bread from the bishop's Mass to the sick and to the other churches.

The Mass contains two parts: the liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Liturgy of the Word is a copy of the Jewish synagogue service of the first century: readings from Scripture followed by responses from the congregation often from the Book of Psalms. The Liturgy of the Eucharist is a reenactment of the Last Supper. A celebrant does what Christ did: take bread and wine and say the same words Christ said and then share the now consecrated bread and wine with the congregation.

Roman Catholics believe that the bread and wine become the real Body and Blood of Jesus Christ and remain such until the elements are entirely consumed. The Body and Blood not consumed at one Eucharist are reserved for the next celebration of the Eucharist and venerated as the Body and Blood of Jesus.

Remembrance: One Sacrifice--Calvary--Continued

Roman Catholic Christians take the word of God seriously and seek to remember Christ in the Last Supper "as often as" possible. And in doing this proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.

1 Cor 11:24-26
"This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
Lk 22:19
"This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me."

Catholic Christians also believe that there is only one sacrifice, Jesus', but following the command "as often as" to proclaim the death of the Lord, the sacrifice of Christ is made physically present to every Christian in all places in every age. The Eucharist makes the atemporal aphysical actions of Christ's redeeming action truly present to us always and everywhere. This is incarnational.

Following the word of God, Catholics also know that Christ is not and cannot be resacrificed. This has never been the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Heb 10:12
But this one (Jesus) offered one sacrifice for sins ...
Heb 7:27
He has no need, as did the high priests, to offer sacrifice day after day, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did that once for all when he offered himself.
Heb 9:25-28
Not that he might offer himself repeatedly ... But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice. ... Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many ...

The constant faith of the Church from the Apostolic Fathers attests to the fact that the Mass was the one Sacrifice of Calvary made present to the faithful.

Cyprian (Carthage, 200-258), Letters, No 63:9 (To Caecilian)
In which portion we find that the cup which the Lord offered was mixed, and that that was wine He called His Blood. Whence it appears that the blood of Christ is not offered if there be no wine in the cup, nor the Lord's sacrifice celebrated with a legitimate consecration unless our oblation and sacrifice respond to His passion.

The 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church makes this statement explicitly.

Catechism Section 1085
In the Liturgy of the Church, it is principally his own Paschal mystery that Christ signifies and makes present. During his earthly life Jesus announced his Paschal mystery by his teachings and anticipated it by his actions. When his Hour comes, he lives out the unique event of history which does not pass away: Jesus dies, is buried, rises from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of the Father "once for all." His Paschal mystery is a real event that occurred in our history, but it is unique: all other historical events happen once, and then they pass away, swallowed up in the past. The Paschal mystery of Christ, by contrast, cannot remain only in the past, because by his death he destroyed death, and all that Christ is -- all that he did and suffered for all people -- participates in the divine eternity, and so transcends all times while being made present in them all. The event of the Cross and Resurrection abides and draws everything toward life.
Catechism Section 1104
Christian liturgy not only recalls the events that saved us but actualizes them, makes them present. The Paschal mystery of Christ is celebrated, not repeated. It is the celebrations that are repeated, and in each celebration there is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit that makes the unique mystery present.

Transubstantiation

The Roman Catholic Church through history approached her faith life with the clarification of language. That is, she translated the essentials of revealed faith into the vocabulary of living language.

Transubstantiation reflects Roman Catholic faith in the literalness of the words of the Bible.

Jesus (omnipotent God) said: "This is my body; this is my blood." And again Jesus said: "I am the bread of life;" "My flesh is true food; my blood is true drink;" "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood ...;" etc.

Roman Catholics take Jesus at His word: the bread is his body; the wine is his blood.

From the Apostles at the Last Supper until today, the bread and wine of Eucharist looks and feels and tastes like bread and wine in the eating and drinking.

Similar to all of God's Word, faith is essential. Faith in what? In the words of Jesus even though the bread does not look, feel, taste like flesh; even though the wine does not look, feel, taste like blood.

Medieval philosophers and theologians sought simply to label this simple biblical faith: Jesus said that bread is his body and wine is his blood even though it did not appear to change into visible flesh and blood.

Transubstantiation means the substance part of the bread and wine elements changes; but the accidental parts--sight, taste, smell, touch--do not. Catholics believe that since Jesus said it and He is God, he can do it. They believe! "Transubstantiation" merely labels it.

In everyday life, it is not at all uncommon to believe in things man cannot perceive by the senses: wind, electricity, love, peace, etc. All the more when Jesus says it.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; eucharist; realpresence; transubstantiation
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 301-302 next last
To: Dr. Eckleburg; markomalley

Thanks Doc. I was just turning the other cheek when I ignored this attack.

Markomalley, disagreement on doctrinal issues does not constitute a personal attack. Similarly, a personal attack does not constitute a doctrinal argument.


61 posted on 06/10/2007 2:20:13 PM PDT by pjr12345 (But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:20)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Biggirl; pjr12345
It is not only RC doctrine but it is also Bible-based that Jesus would build His church on the rock of Peter.

So say you. Your Church says Jesus built His Church on the rock of faith confessed by Peter. Not on the man but on his faith.

Catechism Of The Catholic Church

424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.

62 posted on 06/10/2007 2:20:44 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: ichabod1
OK, that's just blasphemy.

Not blasphemy, heresy. I am not a blasphemer; I am a heretic.

Please, let's get our labels correct!

63 posted on 06/10/2007 2:24:36 PM PDT by pjr12345 (But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:20)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: markomalley
Catholic Christians together with other historical Christian Churches (e.g., Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Christians, Lutherans, Anglicans and some Episcopalians, etc.) believe the literal words of Jesus - that the bread and wine are truly his body and blood.

The author of the article misrepresents the Anglican understanding. Here is what the "Articles of Religion" state "Of the Lord's Supper", included in every Book of Common Prayer:

Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions.

The Body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper, only after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the Body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper, is Faith.

The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshipped.

With the exception of a small minority of high church Anglo-Catholics, the vast majority of Anglicans do not believe in transubstantiation.
64 posted on 06/10/2007 2:26:48 PM PDT by stripes1776
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: OLD REGGIE; All
424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.

Well what is it then??? Is Peter the 'Rock' or is it his 'faith'??? C'mon Catholics, weigh in...

65 posted on 06/10/2007 2:27:20 PM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

Sorry, I missed this post, I had to go plant some trees.


66 posted on 06/10/2007 2:29:33 PM PDT by tiki
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Iscool
Who would want to experience His crucifixion???

Whole lotta people went to Mel Gibson's movie. Meditating on His suffering is supposed to help us realize what He went through on our behalf.

67 posted on 06/10/2007 2:35:23 PM PDT by GoLightly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: GoLightly
The Mass has the power to take the congregation to a different space/time, so everyone in the congregation is experiencing the original crucification.

I've theorized this concept as well. I call it the "Gene Roddenberry was a catholic" theory. What happens is that the priest opens up a worm hole in the space-time continuum. He then reaches through, grabs a hunk of flesh and fills his chalice with blood. As he retrieves these items through the worm hole, the structure of their DNA must be altered in order to stabilize them in our dimension. The miracle occurs in the fact that bread and wine are the most stable substances in which to transform flesh and blood into. All of this occurs so fast that no one in our world is the wiser.

68 posted on 06/10/2007 2:47:14 PM PDT by pjr12345 (But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:20)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: tiki

I hope you arranged to receive payment for planting those trees through Algore’s carbon credit company!


69 posted on 06/10/2007 2:59:20 PM PDT by pjr12345 (But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:20)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: GoLightly; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe
No that's what they want us to think. Reseach the term in persona Christi
70 posted on 06/10/2007 3:01:23 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: Ransomed
The writer of Hebrews answers your question. Any repeated offering of Christ's one-time, perfectly accomplished sacrifice contradicts God's word. As Calvin noted, to repeat the offering over and over makes a mockery of Christ's single, completed atonement for all the sins of His flock.

"Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." -- Hebrews 10:7-18

Rejoice. We have been redeemed.

"Be not afraid. Only believe." -- Mark 5:36

71 posted on 06/10/2007 3:03:44 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: GoLightly; Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; xzins
From one website:

http://cfpeople.org/SeminarianWritings/Sem033.html

By virtue of sacramental consecration, the ordained priest does not simply become a functionary.

This consecration does not set him apart to simply perform certain tasks in the Church. No, by virtue of the sacramental consecration which the priest receives, he is ontologically changed. He is configured to the Person of Jesus Christ, Head and Shepherd, in a new way in his very being. "The relation of the priest to Jesus Christ, and in him to his Church, is found in the very being of the priest by virtue of his sacramental consecration/anointing and in his activity, that is, in his mission and ministry." Just as at Baptism and Confirmation the Christian is sacramentally marked on the soul, so is the man who is ordained a priest marked sacramentally and configured to Christ the Priest.

72 posted on 06/10/2007 3:07:40 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: 1000 silverlings; GoLightly; Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; xzins

I was not aware of that the priest is also a changling. More and more evidence accumulates in support of My Star Trek theory!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1847830/posts?page=68#68


73 posted on 06/10/2007 3:11:22 PM PDT by pjr12345 (But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:20)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies]

To: GoLightly; 1000 silverlings; ears_to_hear; P-Marlowe; pjr12345; HarleyD
The RCC is predicated on the erroneous belief that priests are actually, factually and materialistically different from other believers.

INSTITUTES OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION
by John Calvin
Chapter 18
OF THE POPISH MASS.
HOW IT NOT ONLY PROFANES,
BUT ANNIHILATES THE LORD'S SUPPER.

"...Let us show, therefore as was proposed in the first place, that in the mass intolerable blasphemy and insult are offered to Christ. For he was not appointed Priest and Pontiff by the Fathers for a time merely, as priests were appointed under the Old Testament. Since their life was mortal, their priesthood could not be immortal, and hence there was need of successors, who might ever and anon be substituted in the room of the dead. But Christ being immortal, had not the least occasion to have a vicar substituted for him. Wherefore he was appointed by his Father a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek, that he might eternally exercise a permanent priesthood (Heb. 5:6,10; 7:17,21; 9:11; 10:21; Ps. 110:4; Gen. 14:18). This mystery had been typified long before in Melchizedek, whom Scripture, after once introducing as the priest of the living God, never afterwards mentions, as if he had had no end of life. In this way Christ is said to be a priest after his order.

But those who sacrifice daily must necessarily give the charge of their oblations to priests, whom they surrogate as the vicars and successors of Christ. By this subrogation they not only rob Christ of his honour, and take from him the prerogative of an eternal priesthood, but attempt to remove him from the right hand of his Father, where he cannot sit immortal without being an eternal priest..."

...We deny that they are priests in this sense, namely, that by such oblations they intercede with God for the people, that by propitiating God they make expiation for sins. Christ is the only Pontiff and Priest of the New Testament (cf. Heb. ch.9): to him all priestly offices were transferred, and in him they closed and terminated. Even had Scripture made no mention of the eternal priesthood of Christ, yet, as God, after abolishing those ancient sacrifices, appointed no new priest, the argument of the apostle remains invincible, "No man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron," (Heb. 5: 4.) How, then, can those sacrilegious men, who by their own account are murderers of Christ, dare to call themselves the priests of the living God?..."


74 posted on 06/10/2007 3:19:50 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: 1000 silverlings

Absolutely stunning.


75 posted on 06/10/2007 3:23:51 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies]

To: GoLightly
To a Jew who didn't really believe that Jesus was Lord, it would be a perversion of Passover.

Think about it...if a Jew didn't really believe that Jesus was Lord, why would he make the connection with Passover?

76 posted on 06/10/2007 3:37:49 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Not so fast, Sky King.

Jesus then said, "THESE WORDS are SPIRIT and they are life."

This is where folks who don't accept transubstantiation have lots of reason to take a different stand.

OK, I could see how you could take that. I don't agree. But I guess if I were to deny the obvious (at least to my little papist mind) meaning of that section and had to allegorize it, that would be a good place to start.

Sky King????? What's up with THAT?

77 posted on 06/10/2007 3:40:10 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: GoLightly
No, the priest is like a placemarker for Christ, but isn't actually Christ.

Thank you for correcting him/her. The expression is in persona Christi -- "in the person of Christ" -- a placemarker is an interesting way to put it...

78 posted on 06/10/2007 3:41:58 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: pjr12345
Markomalley, disagreement on doctrinal issues does not constitute a personal attack. Similarly, a personal attack does not constitute a doctrinal argument.

Then state your disagreement and have a discussion. Your attacks on my faith are just that, attacks.

As you, if you bother to read, should see, I am able to engage politely when people actually approach like they wish to have a discussion.

Screams of heresy and blasphemy (or implications thereof) are not a discussion...they are a blatant attack.

And if you're going to have that attitude, then you would do better in acting in accord with the scriptures I've pointed out to you...it would be far more Christ-like on your part.

Oh, and by the way, I haven't attacked your faith at all...and so please don't waste the bandwidth stating something about "beam in eye" or similar...

79 posted on 06/10/2007 3:46:19 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: pjr12345
I am a heretic.

Oh gee...you may have took me wrong. The scriptures I quoted were for your use against us papist heretics. I wasn't calling you a heretic. I was giving you instruction for how to deal with us Cat-o-lik Heretics. Please re-read the scriptures quoted in that light.

80 posted on 06/10/2007 3:50:00 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 301-302 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson