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To: Quix
I still contend that Holy Spirit and a local congregation submitted to HIM . . . remains the safest and best location of said authority and anointing . . . it’s not perfect and flawless and guaranteed pure . . .

but I’ll put my stock there over some loftier ecclesiastical body of power mongering bureaucrats . . . of any denomination . . .

Well, let's take a look at what the Scriptures say about doctrinal disputes:

In Acts 15, there was a dispute as to whether new converts need obey the Mosaic law (Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved). Paul and Barnabas disagreed with them (Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them). The people from the local church dispatched them to get advice from the elders in their hierarchy (Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question) to get a ruling.

There continued to be a disagreement (But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.").

So a council was convened with the hierarchy representing the entire Church (The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter.)

There was considerable discussion and debate. The council finally came up with a decision on the matter and published the findings of the council, believing that the Holy Spirit had moved the council toward that end. The letter was written in the name of those present at the council on the authority of the Church (Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsab'bas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, with the following letter: "The brethren, both the apostles and the elders, to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cili'cia, greeting. Since we have heard that some persons from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.")

Paul and Barnabas were entrusted with this letter and distributed it. (So when they were sent off, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter.)

They communicated the council's findings to the people and those findings were accepted, resolving the dispute (And when they read it, they rejoiced at the exhortation.)

That, Quix, is the way that disputes are scripturally resolved. You will note that it was not all dependent upon the leader of a local community as the final authority, it was resolved by the use of a council with the hierarchy from the entire Church.

You ask a very good question about 'proper.' That's a big reason why this collegial approach was used in the early Church (starting with this council). No one person could be deceived and fly off into left field.

150 posted on 06/13/2007 12:36:35 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: markomalley

Certainly I was aware of that in Scripture.

I still have the bias that St Paul had the bias that

the local congregation had enormous clout . . . and that he preferred local congregations to handle such things.

IN rare cases . . . OK, convene the windy pontificators and thrash it out for the whole denomination.

But I have the biased inference, assumption, extrapolation that Paul KNEW what evils such oversight bodies would promulgate . . . and was none too thrilled at the prospect.


173 posted on 06/13/2007 10:13:26 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: markomalley; wmfights; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; Alex Murphy; All

It has appeared to me . . .

my betters pinged will please need to set me more straight or affirm yea or nay on the below . . .

It has appeared to me . . .

that the RC edifice has glossed over some critical aspects to the handling of problems that you described.

Congregations were NOT wedded in some sort of organizational structure with clear lines of authority, commitment, responsibility, etc.

The Councils constituted were not routinely and chronically empowered, encamped, emboldened, arrayed . . . installed . . . as a static governing body lofting down pronouncements from on high at every need and request.

Communications and travel then did not afford such a bureaucratic administration much functionality but it was not even attempted in that fashion.

For however many 100 years after Christ . . . such councils were much more ad hoc collections of

INFORMALLY RECOGNIZED

AND

OVERTLY HOLY SPIRIT AFFIRMED

Senior Brothers in the Faith . . . who had

DEMONSTRATED WITH SIGNS FOLLOWING

THAT THEY INDEED HAD WALKED WITH JESUS either in their flesh or in The Spirit

SUFFICIENTLY

that their Holy Spirit born wisdom

WARRANTED

attention and following.

= = = = = = =

The RC edifice would have us believe rather inaccurately that

Jesus gave Peter the position and keys to the Federal Reserve Board of Directors for a thereby established

ORGANIZATIONAL BUREAUCRATIC HUMAN STRUCTURE ORGANIZATION.

I find that quite far from Scripture;
quite far from history;
QUITE FAR FROM THE TRUTH.


187 posted on 06/14/2007 4:19:33 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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