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The ABSOLUTE Primacy of Christ
Irish-Catholic and Dangerous ^ | April 12, 2007 | Danny Garland, Jr.

Posted on 06/13/2007 4:39:26 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary

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To: fr maximilian mary; fortheDeclaration; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; pjr12345
Please show me the scripture, where Paul, or anyone else in the bible, speaks of the new Adam having a new Eve. There is no Eve, for all, whether they be male or female, are of Christ Jesus when born anew.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

She was chosen by God through no righteousness of her own. She was in the line of David, that was her greatest asset. All Jewish women hoped to bear the Messiah, that was the "desire of women" spoken of in the bible.

We all know Mary is blessed among women, but let's face it, she was never aware of who Jesus was. She had to ponder things in her heart.

Lastly, here is one thing that the Catholics don't bother to explain, yet by reading the writings of popes etc. come to light. The Catholic church teaches you that you have no access to Jesus, except through Mary. None, zip, nada, totally unbiblical. That is why the big push to indoctrinate you all into her role as co-redemptor, mediator, the one offering up the divine victim, and whatever. Now that is just sad

151 posted on 06/15/2007 9:25:00 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: Uncle Chip

Salome is Queen of the Desert. No wait, that was Priscilla of Australia


152 posted on 06/15/2007 9:27:49 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: fr maximilian mary; Dr. Eckleburg; fortheDeclaration; P-Marlowe; GoLightly; pjr12345; ...
Here's from Vatican Council II:

It was held in the mid-1060s, and gave Virgin Mary the titles Co-Redeemer, Mediator, Advocate: (The real reason it has not been officially accepted, it seems is that the idea is a huge obstacle for ecumenism, and that is the only reason)

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix. (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 62, pp. 382-383).

"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Ireneus says, she being obedient (note not Jesus) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. (!!! she not only saved herself, now she saves us!) Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...’ death through Eve, life through Mary.’ This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 56, pp. 380-381).

153 posted on 06/15/2007 9:45:59 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: 1000 silverlings
Salome is Queen of the Desert.

or Queen of Peace --- Shalom.

154 posted on 06/15/2007 9:46:48 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: fr maximilian mary

Pope Paul called Mary, the mother of God. Therefore, what is she if not equal to God Himself, a la PP2? She either is God, is a god, is a goddess


155 posted on 06/15/2007 9:51:27 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
What exactly is meant by "will(ing) the Trinity"? Rather than taking the usual FR tack of seeing something I don't understand and hollering "UnBiBlIcAl!!!!!!! HeReTiC!!!!!!!!!", I'll ask. What does that mean?

I suspect the author means the covenant of Salvation

Each member of the Trinity has a specific role. The Father creates and elects
The Son saves and judges
The Holy Spirit convicts, leads and teaches

Theologians employ a special phrase ("the economy of the Godhead") to describe the united operation of the three Persons. In whatever activity God engages, the three Divine Persons move in perfect unity, harmony, and cooperation. For example, Creation was the work of the Father (Gen. 1:1) by the Son (Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2) through the agency of the Spirit (Gen. 1:2). Compare also Genesis 1:26-27. There was no conflict, difference of opinion, or disunity within the Godhead in the work of Creation. The combined operation of the Godhead is also displayed in the resurrection of Jesus. Scripture attributes Christ’s resurrection to the Father (Acts 2:24; Acts 13:30), the Son (Jno. 2:19; Jno. 10:18), and the Spirit (Rom. 1:4; Rom. 8:11; I Per. 3:18). Although the three Persons of the Godhead have their respective offices and distinct identities, yet a marvellous oneness and unanimity prevails.

The work of the trinity

156 posted on 06/15/2007 10:40:39 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: ArrogantBustard; P-Marlowe
Read it again ... he's referring to Jesus' human nature. Human nature is created.

Can you give us a scripture that speaks to the "Sacred Heart" of Jesus?

If the term "Sacred Heart " refers to the human/ created heart of Jesus why do Catholics honor that ?

157 posted on 06/15/2007 10:43:43 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: ears_to_hear
Here's a site for you, notice whose heart comes first, lol

http://www.thesacredheart.com/

158 posted on 06/15/2007 10:45:58 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: fr maximilian mary
But not all Christians believe in the ABSOLUTE primacy of Christ. In other words, many view the primacy of Christ as a relative primacy—relative to man’s sin. For them the sole or primary reason for the Incarnation is Redemption from sin. If man had not sinned, Christ would not have come. Whereas Scotus and others held that when God willed to create He willed first to predestine the humanity of Christ to glory through the Incarnation and then willed to predestine us in Christ (sin or no sin) so that the primacy of Christ is not relative to (or occasioned by sin)

Two questions

1) Did God foreknow that men WOULD sin?

2)If men had never sinned what would the role of Christ had been? Would He have died on the cross?

159 posted on 06/15/2007 10:47:34 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: Danny Garland Jr.
By any chance are you a Nestorian?

No. I live in a house.

Seriously... I am a Christian by the grace and mercy of Christ. I study the Bible, accept it as God's Word and full revelation to man. I try to conform my beliefs and life to its teachings, rather than contort it (and thereby God) into my image.

160 posted on 06/15/2007 10:52:52 AM PDT by pjr12345 (I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! Romans 7:25)
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To: Alex Murphy
I don't think anyone's disputing that point. The problem here is that, according to the article, your Bl. John Duns Scotus claims (or the author, claiming on his behalf), that the Trinity itself - the divisions of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - was the first thing that God created.

That is terrible theology, and violates the nature and attributes of God as immutable and eternal

161 posted on 06/15/2007 10:55:54 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: Danny Garland Jr.
I say, nevertheless, that the Fall is not the cause of Christ’s predestination. Indeed, even if one angel had not fallen, or one man, Christ would still have been predestined thus—even if others had not been created, but only Christ. This I demonstrate thus: anyone who wills methodically first wills an end, and then more immediately, those things which are more immediate to the end. But God wills most methodically; therefore, He wills thus: first He wills Himself, and everything intrinsic to Himself; more directly, so far as concerns things extrinsic, is the soul of Christ. Therefore, in relation to whatever merit and before whatever dement was foreseen, He foresees that Christ must be united to Him in a substantial union...”
The “willing of himself” is meant I suppose in the way Fr. Maximilian Mary explained. Love is of the will and God loves Himself.
I also agree that this discussion should focus on the Incarnation of Christ and His Absolute Primacy and the implications thereof.

Do you believe that God is all knowing? Do you believe that God has perfect foreknowledge?

If that is the case how could God NOT KNOW that men would fall?

162 posted on 06/15/2007 11:04:39 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: fr maximilian mary; 1000 silverlings; pjr12345; fortheDeclaration; P-Marlowe; ears_to_hear; ...
The Holy Bible, the Word of God, says that henceforth all generations shall call Mary blessed.(Lk. 1:48).

"BLESSED," one syllable.

Not "bless-ED," with the accent on the second syllable.

God blessed Mary by making her the mother of Jesus Christ.

However, she is no less a sinner than any of us. She required a savior like you and I. And nothing in Scripture gives Mary a retroactive pass from before her birth.

The concepts of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary are anti-Scriptural fantasy which literally feminizes the church and further erodes the concept of Trinitarian Fatherhood.

The foundation of Marianology is found in the history of the cult of Cybele and the cult of Isis. One and the same.

"The Cult of the Virgin Mary: Psychological Origins"
by Michael P. Carroll

163 posted on 06/15/2007 11:21:21 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; fr maximilian mary; 1000 silverlings; pjr12345; fortheDeclaration; P-Marlowe; ...

“BLESSED,” one syllable.”

It is the same word used to describe the condition of all in the Kingdom of God as Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount. The verb form is what is used to bless the bread and cup for communion or the multiplying of the bread for the feeding of the 5,000. Either way, the “blessing” was not special to Mary.


164 posted on 06/15/2007 11:36:45 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: fortheDeclaration; 1000 silverlings; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; pjr12345; P-Marlowe; ...
"Learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart." (Mt. 11:29)

"A new commandment I give you, that you love one another: that as I have loved you, you also love one another. By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." (Jn. 13:34-35).

165 posted on 06/15/2007 12:22:49 PM PDT by fr maximilian mary ("Imitate Jesus, love Mary as your Mother." Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: fr maximilian mary

Who’s the guy with the beard?


166 posted on 06/15/2007 12:34:24 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
He's somehow married to this person


167 posted on 06/15/2007 12:39:53 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: fr maximilian mary

All too often those in error push “the love of God” to deflect any criticism of their teachings. It’s basically the “can’t we all just get along” tactic, or perhaps the “love will keep us together” one.

Let’s look at what Jesus said about loving Him:

John 14:15 — If you love Me, keep My commandments.

If you truly love Christ, denounce the false doctrines of the RCC. I suggest you begin with mariology.


168 posted on 06/15/2007 12:44:34 PM PDT by pjr12345 (I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! Romans 7:25)
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To: fr maximilian mary
"Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.

Rejoice in the LORD, ye righteous; and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness." -- Psalm 97:10-12

"Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good." -- Romans 12:9

169 posted on 06/15/2007 12:50:35 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: fr maximilian mary
"A new commandment I give you, that you love one another: that as I have loved you, you also love one another. By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." (Jn. 13:34-35).

Amen.

Wherefore rebuke them sharply that they may be sound in the faith (Tit.1:13)

170 posted on 06/15/2007 12:54:09 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: 1000 silverlings

I think these are my great grandparents, as my mother has their picture hanging in the hallway.


171 posted on 06/15/2007 12:57:26 PM PDT by pjr12345 (I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! Romans 7:25)
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To: ears_to_hear
If that is the case how could God NOT KNOW that men would fall?

Amen. The more we read Scripture, the more we understand there is no time limit in the past to God's predestination. He is the beginning and the end of ALL things.

No man can fully grasp this truth. Who could? But our inability to understand completely does not negate the fact of who God is and what "sovereign Creator" means.

All that exists is by the perfect will and predetermining, creative decree of God. For Christians, this is part of the good news of the Gospel -- Christ, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

172 posted on 06/15/2007 12:58:31 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Amen to your post.


173 posted on 06/15/2007 1:00:02 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: pjr12345

I saw them as a kid. People were tougher back then, the hearts were all bloody, took up the whole chest cavity.


174 posted on 06/15/2007 1:02:10 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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