Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Scientists certify Our Lady of Guadalupe tilma
Western Catholic Reporter ^ | June 18, 2007 | By RAMON GONZALEZ

Posted on 06/17/2007 2:37:44 PM PDT by NYer

In 1531, the Virgin Mary appeared to Mexican peasant Juan Diego. To prove to all that the apparitions were real, the Virgin imprinted an image of herself on Juan Diego's tilma, a thin cloth made of cactus fibres.

This type of tilma normally decays in 30 to 40 years. But Juan Diego's tilma is still miraculously intact and the same as it was when he wore it.

Over the centuries, many have expressed doubts about the divinity of the image, but Prof. Victor Campa Mendoza has no doubt whatsoever.

"This is not a human act but an act of God," he says in Spanish, adding he has accumulated enough evidence to prove it.

The first is in Revelation chapter 12 which speaks about a woman remarkably similar to Our Lady of Guadalupe, including the fact she was accompanied by the sun, the stars and the moon and that she was pregnant.

Four-petal flower

According to the Nahualt culture, Juan Diego's culture, Our Lady is pregnant in the tilma. This is clear by the shape of her waist and by the four-petal flower resting on her womb, which in Nahualt culture is a symbol of pregnancy, Mendoza said.

A professor of ethics at the Technological Institute of Durango, Mexico, Mendoza has done extensive analysis and research on Juan Diego's tilma for the past 30 years and has written several books on Our Lady of Guadalupe, including the Mantle Codex, the Nican Mopohua and his latest, Guadalupan.

He is currently on a speaking tour of several U.S. and Canadian cities. Blessed Sacrament Parish in Wainwright sponsored his trip to Alberta. He made presentations at parishes in Edmonton, Wainwright, Lloydminster and Vegreville.

In a brief interview in Spanish and during a PowerPoint presentation for 35 people at St. Martin's Parish in Vegreville June 12, Mendoza spoke candidly about Our Lady and gave further evidence of the supernatural origin of her image. He used a large canvass of Our Lady for the presentation and with a large ruler he pointed to details in the image.

Carlos Lara of Wainwright, who interpreted the presentation, said in his native Mexico Our Lady is popular and nobody questions the divinity of the tilma. But presentations like Mendoza's are necessary for skeptical westerners.

The universe

Mendoza noted Our Lady's tilma shows the radiant rays of the sun surrounding her as she appeared, wearing a blue-green mantle that depicts the universe.

Also fascinating is the pattern of stars strewn across her mantle. According to Mendoza the pattern mirrors the exact position of constellations on the day her image appeared on the tilma, Dec. 12, 1531. He used a graph to prove it.

It has been found that by imposing a topographical map of central Mexico on the Virgin's dress, the mountains, rivers and principal lakes coincide with the decoration on this dress, he said.

The fact that the tilma has remained perfectly preserved since 1531 is a miracle in itself, according to Mendoza. After more than four centuries, Juan Diego's tilma retains the same freshness and the same lively colour as when it was new.

Analysis shows that there is no trace of drawing or sketching under the colour, even though perfectly recognizable retouches were done on the original.

He said a professor from NASA conducted an independent analysis in 1979 and concluded that there is no way to explain the quality of the pigments used for the pink dress, the blue veil, the face and the hands, the permanence of the colours, or the vividness of the colours after several centuries, during which they ordinarily should have deteriorated.

Much research has also been conducted regarding mysterious images that appear in Our Lady's eyes. The images reflected in her retinas are of the moment when she left her imprint on Juan Diego's tilma and Mendoza showed enlarged pictures of those images.

Peruvian Jose Aste Tonsmann, an expert in digital image processing, produced them. The figures in Our Lady's eyes' reflection show the people historically known to have been present at the unveiling of the tilma in 1531 - Bishop Zumarraga, his interpreter, Juan Diego and several family members.

Further proof of the supernatural origin of the tilma comes from St. Luke, who in 71 AD painted a portrait of Our Lady that is remarkably similar to Our Lady of Guadalupe, noted Mendoza. "This is a true sign that this an act of God," he said.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: guadelupe; juandiego; mx; olg
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-118 next last

Prof. Victor Campa Mendoza demonstrates the cloth's veracity.
1 posted on 06/17/2007 2:37:48 PM PDT by NYer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...
Thank you all for your prayers!

I am truly humbled by the response to Sandyeggo's thread. Rest assured of my prayers for you, as well.

2 posted on 06/17/2007 2:40:00 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...
Thank you all for your prayers!

I am truly humbled by the response to Sandyeggo's thread. Rest assured of my prayers for you, as well.

3 posted on 06/17/2007 2:41:05 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
There are lots of pictures of Our Lady of Guadalupe in these threads. Check it out!

The Story of Guadalupe: Hope for Our Violent World

Our Lady of Guadalupe: Protectress of the Unborn

Was Our Lady of Guadalupe Wrong?

METHODIST CHURCH DISPLAYS VIRGIN OF GUADALUPE

GUADALUPE DEVOTION IS CROSSING INTO PROTESTANT DENOMINATIONS

 
A Novena to Our Lady of Guadalupe

Relic From Guadalupe Tilma to Tour U.S.

The Amazing Truth of Our Lady of Guadalupe

Our Lady Of Guadalupe

Celebrating 470 years of an ongoing miracle, the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe 1531

Science Stunned by Virgin of Guadalupe´s Eyes

OUR LADY OF GUADALUPE [Read only]


4 posted on 06/17/2007 2:54:02 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer; Ross Jeffries; DieHard the Hunter; rogernz; victim soul; Rosamond; sfm; G S Patton; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic Ping List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to all note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

5 posted on 06/17/2007 3:50:30 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Studying Juan Diego’s Tilma

I am a paleontologist at Cornell University, where I teach a course about determining the age, materials and place of origin of artworks. Three years ago, Dr. Gilberto Aguirre, a physician in San Antonio, Texas, invited me to join a team examining the tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

He was interested in small images said to be found in the eyes of the icon and hoped I could comment on the age and composition of the fabric and pigments. I made two trips to Mexico City, did tests on fibers at Cornell and reported to Dr. Aguirre, the archbishop of Mexico City and his staff.

Various news reports had suggested that the tilma was a fake, that it was made in Europe and brought to Mexico by Franciscan priests or, perhaps, that it was painted in Mexico over the image of a dark-eyed Aztec goddess.

People who support the “European origin” theory argue that the tilma cannot be of local manufacture because it has lasted too long. Local cloth, made from woven cactus fibers, lasts for a few years, maybe a decade. The tilma has been displayed for hundreds of years. They argue the tilma must be woven from European linen or cotton.

Two fibers loaned to me for microscopic examination (and reportedly removed from the tilma’s outer edge when it was stored during the Mexican Revolution) do not, it seems, come from native cactus plants.

I was also able to rule out cotton, wool and linen (fibers that might have been used in Europe). The tilma seems to be made from woven hemp, from a plant that is native to Mexico. This could explain the tilma’s remarkable state of preservation. Hempen cloth can last hundreds of years. It is one of the strongest fibers known.

People who support the “Aztec goddess” theory argue that photographs taken in ultraviolet light show an underpainting or “pentimento” of a dark-eyed, somewhat frightening woman.

I pointed out to Church authorities that ultraviolet photography does not expose images beneath other images. Rather, ultraviolet light shows most clearly the application of paint on top of another image. Ultraviolet light shows where an original has been “touched up,” usually with a clear varnish. The “dark-eyed” maiden of the “Aztec goddess” theorists is simply the original image with large, circular patches of varnish added over the eyes. Conservators often use such patches to protect a surface. Ultraviolet photos could help modern conservators remove this added varnish layer.

To see if there is really an underpainting on the tilma, photographs need to be taken with light from the infrared part of the spectrum.

Theories about European origins and an Aztec goddess are simply incorrect. Simple scientific tests can rule these out.

I hope that future testing will be permitted. An examination using neutron-activation analysis and X-ray fluorescence could shed light on the pigments of the image, the history of the tilma and, importantly, could direct attempts to conserve and safeguard this image.

John J. Chiment teaches in the Department of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at Cornell University in Ithaca, New York.
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:8GZ8Fr8dA38J:www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Jul2002/Feature1.asp+Father+Jose+Luis+Guerrero,+the+2002+canonization+of&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3


6 posted on 06/17/2007 3:57:28 PM PDT by fatima (Remember our Troops with a little prayer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: fatima

JUAN DIEGO’S INTERCESSION MIRACLE SUMMARY

THE MIRACLE

20 years before Juan Diego’s Beatification, JJ was born. Dona Esperanza’s unique son, who alone, with great efforts, a brave heart and a special faith in God and Virgin of Guadalupe, showed him a life of studies, work and knowledge of the Only Truly God.

JJ was educated in very good schools. His physical and intellectual developments were normal and start to bright between his partners. Only with common problems in many families.

3rd May 1990, in his third floor department in Mexico city, near 17:00 o’clock, he falls from the balcony after fighting with his mother trying to stop him. He falls in concrete soil. Struk in his right orbit and chin without being stopped by anything, neither his own arms. Curious people were already in the street trying to help without success. Seeing the fall and stroke think he is dead but JJ, without loss conscience, stands up and seat down in the street. An ambulance is called and carries him to a very renown Hospital.

Immediately is transported to Radiology Section to make head and neck Computed Axial Tomography studies. Medical Director receives the young man, who is very agitated. The mother, very preoccupied, asks for prognostic. She is told her son is going to die soon and possible before will have four limbs paralysis. Director tells her, if she has faith, tries to ask God and Virgin of Guadalupe for a miracle. The mother answer “ I have already did it, asking Juan Diego’s intercession” to save JJ to die.

Imagenology studies shows an enormous skull basal fracture. Extended from right orbit and cheek till left ear. It passes over delicate neurologic, arteries and veins elements without produce any lesion. Inflammatory lesions and cerebral edema dues to hemorrhages are reported. Finally, he got his skull broken without other bones fractures.

In the Intensive Care Unit is attended by specialists who only give support measures. 6th May, only three days after, a decision is taken : do not start any measure to useless prolong patient’s life. Catheters and ventilators are retired and suddenly the young man awakes stands up from bead and start to have meals. Just at same moment in Our Lady Virgin of Guadalupe’s shrine, the Juan Diego’s Beatification Celebration Ceremony is taking place. Lesions disappear spontaneously and JJ is recovered without problems added. 10th May, when in Mexico Mother’s day is celebrated, he is sent to a normal Hospital room. Ten days after the traumatism he is sent home in excellent conditions without any complication.

All skull base, passing over a place named “ clivus” and the hipophysis gland, important C. R. L. fistulae and hemorrhages, one in subaracnoidean space, were established as diagnosis. Is remarkable he did not die immediately, also he did not lose conscience, other fractures were not present, niether neurologic, endocrinologic or other invalidating lesions. Also the recovery was so rapid. Without complications or specific treatment.

A month after, tomodensitometries (ACT ) were normal. Continuously supervised, one more year do not present neurologic, endocrinous nor vascular problems and his emotional and intellectual status were satisfactory. Occasionally had little relapses because familiar problems, overlooked with psychiatric treatment. Another tomography one year after, shows a fracture already consolidated in a cervical vertebral structure called “odontoides”. This bone, with a minimum displacement, not as severe as in this case, injure rachidean bulb as a rule. In this place, autonomous functions as cardiac beats, breath and digestive functions are regulated.

He was working as bell boy and as chauffeur nearly five years. With his friends went to parties having a normal life. He continues under strict supervision and three year ago “Juan Diego’s Scholarship” is given him. He finishes studies as Computer Technique. Having very good notes, even the first place some months and his classmates and professors have very good opinions of his behavior. Last year went to United States and right now has a worthy work in a sales institution.

THE PROCESS.

With so unusual evolution, an official Catholic Court was established in order to check the presence of a miracle. Constituted by outstanding Church personalities, as Father J. Milanese already dead, theologians as Mons. Jose Luis Guerrero and Father Victor Garcia Delgadillo, Luis Felipe García, Mons Enrique Salazar as Vicepostulador, and Father Antonio Moya from Opus Dei Prelature. All of them with specialization studies in Rome, Italy. As Notaries, Sor Nieves Rodríguez and Josefima Velázquez. Three physicians were included : Coordinated by D, J.H. Hernandez Illescas, all specialists and university professors. Sessions had place almost every week nearly four years. JJ, his mother and other witness were convoked to declare. They retell the facts, invocations to Juan Diego before the fall and the prodigious evolution.

Other Mexican doctors with very well known scientific quality and irreproachable professional and docent lines. Three neurosurgeons, two orthopedist, three psychiatrics, two internists, a general surgeon, one endocrinologist, one radiologist, one otorrinolaringologist and a forensic specialist. Between them stands out Dr. Horacio Martinez Romero’s participation. He had between other international rewards, one Latin-American Neurosurgery Congress presidency. All doctors are distinguished university professors.

Dr. Javier Amaro, Forensic Medicine specialist working in General Justice Mexican Court, with thousands of autopsies experience, also concluded, having JJ those kind of injures presented, “ we are seeing an inconceivable case”, because he is alive, without any kind of sequel and in perfect physical and mental conditions.

To prove it, an interview in video was made. Common questions were posed to JJ, as studies, hobbies, worries and wishes of future progress. JJ’s answers were very sensible. He shows visually his normal mind.

Since in this case is contributing force application, the opinion of two specialists in Dynamics was asked. Physic Blas Diaz Romero from La Salle University, and Ing. Hugo Acevedo. In separated calculations they determined the young man cervical vertebral spine, usually broken with a 35 kg application force, received more than one and a half tons !!!.

Thursday Saint 1994, in Mexico Metropolitan Cathedral, during the Benediction of the Saint Oil, the “ Mexican Copia Bella “ was placed in a box, sealed appropriately and sent to Rome, Italy. The Eternal City receives it. A new stage begins. Mons. P Molinari of Postulazione Generale Della Compagnia Di Gesu, edits a “Positio” and sends to Vatican Saints Congregation and supervises the Process evolution. Five Italian doctors are called, between them the eminent professor Da Rossa. Their unanimous opinion is “ it is a real miracle”. Then the Theologiens revision comes. They approve the legality of Procedures.

In this moment His Eminency Norberto Cardinal Rivera, Mexico Prime Archbishop, takes very wisely, the Process Direction. With an old and important interest to work on Canonization. Even in his heraldic Coat of Arms we can see the Popocatepetl and Iztaccíhuatl volcanoes guarding Anahuac Valley, and the beautiful figures of Virgin of Guadalupe and Juan Diego!!!. Just as a premonition of love to them and his destiny to bring to a good end Juan Diego’s Canonization Process. He designs as new Postulator Mons Oscar Barba who continues the procedure.

Very known problems begin and it was necessary to exaggerate historic, theological and technical aspects on Juan Diego and the miracle. Then appears the important aportations, in a book, of Mons Fidel Gonzalez, Eduardo Chavez and Jose Luis Guerrero, who actualize, make a revision and include new facts to avoid weaks and wrong voices of some people trying to delay canonization.

Mons. Chavez continues Juan Diego’s Process and from the beginning plays an extraordinary role. By means of conferences, writings, and meetings he seize the opportunity and, under His Eminence Norberto instructions and with Mons Diego Monroy, Dean of Virgin of Guadalupe’s shrine, with all his means and efforts promotes Canonization.

October 2001 Vatican Consistory is finished and His Saintly John Paul II proclaims and signs, the truth of Juan Diego´s Miracle in December 20th. Right now the entire world, especially Mexico and Latin-America are waiting with anxiety, the John Paul II’s illuminated intervention in order to officially canonizes Juan Diego. In accomplishment of Virginal promises, to follow countersign tasks Saint Mary of Guadalupe encomends him to continue being example of compromised laic, evangelizer and also to shine as paradigm of all world aborigines in this convulsed planet.

PRAISED BE GOD, BLESSED THE VIRGIN OF GUADALUPE AND THANK YOU JOHN PAUL II.

http://frpat.com/juandiegoillescas.htm


7 posted on 06/17/2007 3:59:08 PM PDT by fatima (Remember our Troops with a little prayer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: fatima

http://www.sancta.org/eyes.html

The Mystery in Our Lady’s eyes

“Bearded man” image in the right eye.
According to many scientists who have inspected the image, it seems that in her eyes, in both of them and in the precise location as reflected by a live human eye, could be seen many figures that have been extensively analyzed and seem to correspond to the shape and size of human figures located in front of the image.

In 1929, Alfonso Marcue, who was the official photographer of the old Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City, found what seemed to him to be a clear image of a bearded man reflected in the right eye of the Virgin. Initially he did not believe what was before his eyes. How could it be? A bearded man inside of the eyes of the Virgin?. After many inspections of many of his black and white photographs he had no doubts and decided to inform the authorities of the Basilica. He was told that time to keep complete silence about the discovery, which he did.
More than 20 years later, on May 29, 1951, Jose Carlos Salinas Chavez, examining a good photograph of the face, rediscovers the image of what clearly appears to be a bearded man reflected in the right eye of the Virgin, and locates it on the left eye too.

“Bearded man”.
Since then, many people had the opportunity to inspect closely the eyes of the Virgin on the tilma, including more than 20 physicians, ophthalmologists.
The first one, on March 27, 1956, was Dr. Javier Torroella Bueno, MDS, a prestigious ophthalmologist. In what is the first report on the eyes of the image issued by a physician, he certifies what seems to be the presence of the triple reflection (Samson-Purkinje effect) characteristic of all live human eyes and states that the resulting images are located exactly where they are supossed to be according to such effect, and also that the distortion of the images agree with the curvature of the cornea.
The same year another ophthalmologist, Dr. Rafael Torrija Lavoignet, examined the eyes of the image with an ophthalmoscope in great detail. He observed the apparent human figure in the corneas of both eyes, with the location and distortion of a normal human eye and specially noted a unique appearance of the eyes: they look strangely “alive” when examined.
Many other examinations by ophthalmologists have been done of the eyes of the image on the tilma after these first ones. With more or less details all agree with the conclusions of the ones mentioned above.

According to Dr. Tonsmann, from left to right we can see “the Indian”, “bishop Zumarraga”, the “translator”, “Juan Diego showing the tilma” and below “the family”.
A new and interesting kind of analysis of the eyes started in 1979, when Dr. Jose Aste Tonsmann, Ph D, graduated from Cornell University, while working in IBM scanned at very high resolutions a very good photograph, taken from the original, of the face on the tilma. After filtering and processing the digitized images of the eyes to eliminate “noise” and enhance them, he reports he made some astonishing discoveries: not only the “human bust” was clearly present in both eyes, but another human figures were seen as reflected in the eyes too.
Dr. Aste Tonsmann published his last studies on the eyes on the tilma in the book “El Secreto de sus Ojos”, with complete details and photographs of his work . Perhaps one of the most interesting aspects of the studies is his conclusion that Our Lady of Guadalupe not only left us her miraculous image as proof of her apparition but some important messages too. These messages were hidden in the eyes on the image until our times, when new technologies would allow them to be discovered, when they are most necessary.
That would be the case with the image of a family in the center of the Virgin’s eye, in times when families are under serious attack in our modern world. The image of various human figures that seem to constitute a family, including various children and a baby carried in the woman’s back as used in the 16th century, appears in the center of the pupil, as shown in this great image of the right eye highlighting the family, generously provided by Dr. Tonsmann.

HOME | Top | Send this site to a friend | Comments | webkeeper

“Let not your heart be disturbed. Do not fear that sickness, nor any other sickness or anguish. Am I not here, who am your Mother? Are you not under my protection? Am I not your health? Are you not happily within my fold? What else do you wish? Do not grieve nor be disturbed by anything.”
(Words of Our Lady to Juan Diego)


8 posted on 06/17/2007 4:01:03 PM PDT by fatima (Remember our Troops with a little prayer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: fatima

Thank you for posting both those fascinating stories!


9 posted on 06/17/2007 5:25:56 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: NYer

(((Hugs))) And prayers,I had them on Our Lady’s site saved after research.


10 posted on 06/17/2007 5:28:35 PM PDT by fatima (Remember our Troops with a little prayer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...

.


11 posted on 06/17/2007 5:44:16 PM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, insects)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer; Salvation
Good story... Also, there was a traveling picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe that was displayed outside an abortion clinic in Atlanta a few years back -- as part of prayer service and to defend life (by being displayed outside an abortion clinic).

An ardent pro-lifer and very good Catholic was able to see the display and be a part of the event (on a Friday). I had to work.

The next day this ardent pro-lifer (Michelle) was saying the next day she smelled roses (Saturday).

I was skeptical that it was roses, and thought it was flowers blooming from the bushes in front of the abortion clinic (though plant life does not grow well at this abortion clinic).

Michelle corrected me by stating that there were no flowers (visible) in bloom.

I realized that I also smelled the roses, and as I and Michelle was trying to figure out why, Michelle said that the smell of roses came where the traveling image had been displayed...

At that point, I realized that Michelle (as well as myself) had been blessed with a very wonderful grace from heaven -- the smell of roses. This grace was common to people who visited Padre Pio (while he walked this world until 1968) and had favors granted...

Michelle, in the 1990's, along with her friend Scott, were instrumental in closing down an abortion clinic -- by exposing the truth... The abortion industry bulldozed the building almost immediately after this clinic was closed -- it was such a scandal.

Scott is now resident in Yonkers, New York, as one of the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal, the order Father Benedict Groeschel and Father Andrew Apostoli are part of (the CFR's).

To make a long story short, Michelle works very hard for the pro-life group in Atlanta, and I think the smell of roses was a small reward for her -- though she also has 8 children (at last count)...

12 posted on 06/17/2007 9:47:44 PM PDT by topher (Let us return to old-fashioned morality - morality that has stood the test of time...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: topher

Marvelous story! The smell of roses is indeed a grace bestowed by our Blessed Mother, who calls us all to her Son.


13 posted on 06/18/2007 3:50:17 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: fatima

Cloth evaluation aside, a more basic question is how does one know this was “Our Lady of Guadalupe”?


14 posted on 06/18/2007 5:21:18 AM PDT by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Also fascinating is the pattern of stars strewn across her mantle. According to Mendoza the pattern mirrors the exact position of constellations on the day her image appeared on the tilma, Dec. 12, 1531. He used a graph to prove it.

It has been found that by imposing a topographical map of central Mexico on the Virgin's dress, the mountains, rivers and principal lakes coincide with the decoration on this dress, he said.

The fact that the tilma has remained perfectly preserved since 1531 is a miracle in itself, according to Mendoza. After more than four centuries, Juan Diego's tilma retains the same freshness and the same lively colour as when it was new.

Analysis shows that there is no trace of drawing or sketching under the colour, even though perfectly recognizable retouches were done on the original.

Way cool! I'm up on the Shroud, but info about the Tilma is harder to come by. Thanks!

15 posted on 06/18/2007 5:52:38 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
Cloth evaluation aside, a more basic question is how does one know this was “Our Lady of Guadalupe”?

The story and the resulting good fruit are very compelling. While, generally speaking, the Church accepts this event as miraculous, and while Pope Benedict XIV pronounced Our Lady of Guadalupe as the patron saint of Mexico, no Catholic is obligated to believe in this miraculous event.

But I do.

16 posted on 06/18/2007 6:02:29 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Aquinasfan; fatima
From the Story of Our Lady of Guadalupe...

It's a wonderful story but it does not call attention to God once (as is often the case). This is not in keeping with the scriptures in which all things bring glory to God. But, as you can see from the story, God and our Lord Jesus is rarely mentioned.

One has to wonder why Mary would asks for a temple to be built for her and not to God? No one is under obligation to believe this "miraculous" event occur. But one wonders why someone wouldn't raise questions about people popping in on them asking them to erect temples to them.

17 posted on 06/18/2007 7:42:19 AM PDT by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
It's a wonderful story but it does not call attention to God once (as is often the case).

At least in this account. In another account I read that she revealed herself to be "the Ever Virgin Mother of the True God."

This is not in keeping with the scriptures in which all things bring glory to God.

God often chooses to glorify Himself through his creatures. In this case, "to God through Mary." We all can be conduits of grace in some way.

This miracle brought about the conversion of 9 million pagans, so it bore good fruit.

Notice also that the image is Scriptural, in that it accords with this image described in Revelation.

Revelation 12:1

A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

But, as you can see from the story, God and our Lord Jesus is rarely mentioned. One has to wonder why Mary would asks for a temple to be built for her and not to God?

I believe that this is the reason. Mary is the woman alluded to in Genesis whose seed "crushes the head of the serpent." This would have special significance for the native people.

The origin of the name Guadalupe has always been a matter of controversy. The name came about because of the translation from Nahuatl to Spanish of the words used by the Virgin to announce herself: the Nahuatl word of "coatlaxopeuh" which is pronounced "quatlasupe" and sounds remarkably like the Spanish word Guadalupe. Catholic historians translate Coa as serpent; tla is interpreted as "the", while xopeuh means to crush or stamp out. The original Nahuatl translates as "the one who crushes the serpent", an allusion to Quetzecoatl, the serpent god-king of the Aztec religion.
Perhaps in this way, God could use Mary to lead the people away from their pagan religion and to Himself.

But one wonders why someone wouldn't raise questions about people popping in on them asking them to erect temples to them.

The bishop dismissed Juan Diego's visions until the day when Juan Diego unfurled his tilma bearing the miraculous image, and fresh roses tumbled out. This was in wintertime, when roses were not in bloom.

18 posted on 06/18/2007 8:14:41 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
It's a wonderful story but it does not call attention to God once

True God for whom we live, of the Creator of all things, Lord of heaven and the earth

It called my attention!

19 posted on 06/18/2007 8:18:14 AM PDT by Titanites
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
One has to wonder why Mary would asks for a temple to be built for her and not to God?

That's not at all clear from the text.

In point of fact, the "temple" in question is a Catholic church. Every Catholic church in the world is a temple to the worship of Almighty God; not a single one is a "temple for Mary and not for God".

20 posted on 06/18/2007 8:19:56 AM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: Aquinasfan
This miracle brought about the conversion of 9 million pagans, so it bore good fruit.

Notice also that the image is Scriptural

Perhaps in this way, God could use Mary to lead the people away from their pagan religion and to Himself.

The bishop dismissed Juan Diego's visions until the day when Juan Diego unfurled his tilma bearing the miraculous image, and fresh roses tumbled out. This was in wintertime, when roses were not in bloom.


22 posted on 06/18/2007 8:46:03 AM PDT by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Campion
That's not at all clear from the text.

In point of fact, the "temple" in question is a Catholic church. Every Catholic church in the world is a temple to the worship of Almighty God...


23 posted on 06/18/2007 9:00:46 AM PDT by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: sandyeggo
HD-It's a wonderful story but it does not call attention to God once

Sandyeggo-It's right there in the first sentence you put in red font:...

And that's all that is mentioned and then it's in an off-handed way. The rest is about doing things for Mary so that Mary will bless and take care of them.

24 posted on 06/18/2007 9:03:38 AM PDT by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
Harley, the "temple" exists. It was built, past tense. It is not a pagan temple to Mary. It is a Christian church.

Juan Diego was a illiterate Indian. He was not a doctor of reformed theology, or any other kind of theology. Sometimes God reaches us down where we are, even though you don't approve.

25 posted on 06/18/2007 9:21:35 AM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: NYer

God bless all who venerate her!


26 posted on 06/18/2007 9:24:18 AM PDT by rbosque
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Campion
What I’m not hearing is how anyone know this vision of Mary was from God? Every time there's a “virgin sighting”, Mary always ends up looking like one of the natives. Doesn’t that seem a tad odd? Our Lord Jesus, in His resurrected body, still appeared with the imprints in His hands and the wound in His side. In this case Mary probably would have had a sombrero on if it wasn’t for her halo.

I have yet to see Mary looking like a short dark Middle Eastern as she most likely was; rather than the African, Oriental or anything else. It is understandable when people paint pictures of Mary that she appears like this because it is an artist's interpretation. However, when people say that Mary stamped her picture on their T-shirt, then one would hope that it would be an exact likeness of her. If you compare Juan's pictures among all the other pictures from the few who have similar stories, then you would think the likeness would be the same. She wouldn't look like she just came off a catechism card.

It isn't a matter of what WE believe. It is a matter of what scripture tells us.

27 posted on 06/18/2007 9:44:34 AM PDT by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD

“I don’t know anywhere in Catholic doctrine that a church is called a “temple”; do you?”

I heard St. Peter’s in Rome is so called.


28 posted on 06/18/2007 10:48:03 AM PDT by Daffy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
It doesn't matter HOW many conversions it brought about.

"You will know a tree by its fruit." --Jesus

I am sure that we both would agree that if tomorrow 9 million Hindus became Budhists we would not marvel and think this was God at work. From the Budhist's perspective they might.

But we're not talking about non-Christian religions. We're talking about 9 million conversions to Christianity. Does that sound like the work of Satan?

"If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?" --Jesus

So? Doesn't anyone stop and think that this person could have 1) been deceived or 2) been a deceiver?

See above.

Perhaps, except to say that God the Father is not recounted in the story. Mary is talking about coming to her, not the Father.

Sometimes Christians aid other people without invoking God's name. That does't make their actions intrinsically evil. Besides, in the account I read she identified herself as the Mother of God. She also instructed Juan Diego to go to see his bishop --to go to the Church. The connection with Christ's Church is quite clear.

1 Timothy 3:15

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

And the magicians in Egypt were able to do miraculous signs. Simon in Acts was also.

And the devil may appear as an angel of light.

But what fruit did these signs bear? Again, Satan would not work a sign that would result in the mass conversion of pagans. His kingdom would be divided against itself.

29 posted on 06/18/2007 10:54:22 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Daffy
I heard St. Peter’s in Rome is so called.

I believe it's called the St. Peter's Basilica unless they've begun instituting animal sacrifices.

30 posted on 06/18/2007 11:12:57 AM PDT by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: NYer
the four-petal flower resting on her womb, which in Nahualt culture is a symbol of pregnancy

Total cultural integration.

31 posted on 06/18/2007 11:15:48 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Aquinasfan
HD-It doesn't matter HOW many conversions

Jesus-"You will know a tree by its fruit."

We're talking about 9 million conversions to Christianity. Does that sound like the work of Satan?

Sometimes Christians aid other people without invoking God's name. That does't make their actions intrinsically evil.


32 posted on 06/18/2007 11:31:27 AM PDT by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Aquinasfan

Thank God for Our Lady of Guadalupe.


33 posted on 06/18/2007 11:38:27 AM PDT by Nihil Obstat (Kyrie Eleison)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD; Aquinasfan; fatima; Campion
And the magicians in Egypt were able to do miraculous signs. Simon in Acts was also. History, even recorded in scripture, have always been filled with people who can do miraculous things. This is not an indication of anything.

Amen!

We have been warned about those that will mislead. I only know of one instance where God will use humans (we believe are dead) to bring his message to us and that has not occurred yet. In Scripture God reveals his message to us through his Son, the Holy Spirit, or angels.

34 posted on 06/18/2007 11:40:02 AM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
We're talking about 9 million conversions to Christianity. Does that sound like the work of Satan? At great risk of drawing the ire of many Catholics, if we objectively look at this incidence, we are basing this whole situation on an apparition of Mary telling people to construct a "temple" to her so she will bless the people.

But weren't they blessed? They became Christians. In doing so, they were baptized. Adult baptism requires repentance and belief. With this miraculous event, God, working through Mary, established the divine nature of His Church, so much so that millions of pagans were led into Christ's Church.

If people followed her advise, they were not converted because there is no call for repentence and asking God for forgiveness as required in scripture.

But in entering the Church through baptism, they repented of their sins and professed belief in Christ.

God uses all things to His glory so it is entirely possible that some of these people understood the message and "saw the light" so to speak. But, based upon what Juan told everone, this is not the gospel message.

Why would Mary be limited to strictly speaking the gospel message? She led the pagans to Christ's Church, and Christ Himself, as the woman whose offspring "crushed the head of the serpent."

35 posted on 06/18/2007 11:54:38 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD; Daffy
I believe it's called the St. Peter's Basilica unless they've begun instituting animal sacrifices.

Somewhere in St. Peter's the church is referred to as a temple, at least according to Mother Angelica. (I saw this rerun last week).

She herself claims to have been told by the infant Jesus to "build a temple for me." She said that she was confused, because she had never heard of a Catholic temple. But one day when she was in St. Peter's, she saw that it was called a temple.

The Solomonic columns used in the high alter of St. Peter's provide converging evidence. Catholic Churches are heavily influenced by the design of Solomon's Temple.

Finally, we Christians can regard ourselves as completed or messianic Jews. So the idea of calling a church a temple should not pose too great of a problem for us.

My two cents, anyway 8-)

36 posted on 06/18/2007 12:06:45 PM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD; Aquinasfan; Campion
HarleyD, you are quite right to be skeptical about this or any other alleged apparition. It is far more common for an apparition to be the product of wishful thinking, imagination, abnormal mental processes, or hoax than for it to be a true miracle of God: and even demonic deception is always a possibility.

This particular apparition has some strong evidence in its favor; but other FReepers have posted lots of links, so I encourage you to train you critical eye on it, and evaluate things for yourself.

Here's a reasonable hypothesis of why Christ's mother--- if this is His mother---- would want to emphasize so much her own motherhood. And that would be hinted at by the location of her visit. It was the hill of Tepeyac, where previously there had been the pyramid of the Aztec goddess Tonantzin, which means simply "Venerable Mother."

The Aztecs had as great an interest in and reverence for sacred realities as did the pagan Greeks at Areopagus. But it's hard for us even to grasp the profound humiliation and disorientation they suffered when their whole society was shattered by this utterly alien invasion and conquest. It would be very hard for them to accept Christ from the aliens at Castilian knifepoint; Christianity would be seen as something that almost deified the Spanish, while annihilating the Aztec.

So it was necessary for them to be evangelized by "one of their own," so to speak. And thus Mary came, very young, very dark, very much NOT a goddess, hands folded reverently and eyes meekly downcast, using elaborate Aztec iconographic aymbolism to tell them --- as Paul told the Greeks at Mars Hill --- who their "unknown god" really is.

Don't be misled by thinking her whole message is in her words. It's all in her visual symbolism. She is not the Supreme Being. But she is carrying Him.

The fact that she wanted a 'temple' under the authority of Bishop Zumarraga clearly means she wanted to draw people into the church of the Christians, for here many millions have encountered Christ.

If it were not for her, I believe the Mesoamerican people would overwhelmingly be Huitzilopochtli-worshippers to this day.

In fact, thinking of the titanic struggle going on in Mexico even now as we speak, with their vile government oppressing the poor (abort them or export them!), rapidly and comprehensively embracing the Culture of Death (legalizing abortion, promoting contraception, honoring perverse sexuality, and prostitution) I suspect Huitzilopochtli is still a strong contender.

Give a thought to the significance of that snake under Mary's foot. "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and hers..."

37 posted on 06/18/2007 12:32:46 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Ya think?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o; Aquinasfan; Campion; wmfights
...It would be very hard for them to accept Christ from the aliens at Castilian knifepoint; Christianity would be seen as something that almost deified the Spanish, while annihilating the Aztec. So it was necessary for them to be evangelized by "one of their own," so to speak. And thus Mary came, very young, very dark, very much NOT a goddess, hands folded reverently and eyes meekly downcast, using elaborate Aztec iconographic aymbolism

I would suggest the Catholic Church has gone positively wacky with Mary. Even the Orthodox roll their eyes over the Marian doctrine that has been coming out of the Church for the last 200 years. People are seeing Mary more often (thousands of reported sightings yearly) simply because Mary is hip.

It was very poor form for the Spainards to run into Central America to loot and plunder at the same time they were trying to convert the lost souls. However I sincerely doubt that Mary was, or would have been, more appealing to the people than the word of God. God's word, after all, is the power of salvation and the method by which He instills faith. Visions of Mary, while they make make everyone feel good, just doesn't have that type of power.

Milan hospital replaces crucifix with (statue of) Mary to please Muslims

38 posted on 06/18/2007 1:00:30 PM PDT by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
"I sincerely doubt that Mary was, or would have been, more appealing to the people than the word of God."

Be careful not to set up a false dichotomy here. Mary, pregnant, is carrying Jesus, the Word of God. Pretty clearly this is a package deal, not an either/or.

And if you go to the Basilica of Guadalupe (or any other Catholic church) you can't help but notice that the Mass is drenched with Scripture: not only the Epistle, the Old Testament lesson, the Psalm, and the Gospel at EVERY Sunday Mass, but in fact all the prayers are either straight Scripture or based on Scripture.

So if Mary got them into the Church, she got them into the Word.

39 posted on 06/18/2007 1:21:45 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Ya think?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD

You certainly don’t believe, “For God so loved the world, that He sent a book...”?


40 posted on 06/18/2007 1:30:08 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Ya think?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
I would suggest the Catholic Church has gone positively wacky with Mary.

Do you really think that insulting language like this accomplishes anything, or wins anyone to your point of view?

41 posted on 06/18/2007 2:02:29 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
I would suggest the Catholic Church has gone positively wacky with Mary.

I just looked at "The Cult of the Virgin Mary" by Michael Carroll and on page 183 he states;

"The greatest stumbling block to anyone searching for the psychological origins of the Tepeyac apparitions is the fact that there are no accounts of these apparitions that date from the period of the apparitions themselves. There are, for instance, no references to any apparitions occurring at Tepeyac in the writings of Bishop Zumarraga, even though he was supposed to have been a central participant in the drama."

If this is accurate it would seem that the "need" for these apparitions superceeds objective analysis.

42 posted on 06/18/2007 4:09:46 PM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o
Pretty clearly this is a package deal, not an either/or....So if Mary got them into the Church, she got them into the Word.

It's not "pretty clear" and I strongly believe this is an absolutely wrong interpretation. To say it's a "package deal" is nothing more that a Co-Redemptix view and assumes God was incapable of bringing our Lord Jesus into the world any other way; that God needed help to bring about the birth of Christ. I would not make that "assumption". I think God can be a bit creative when He wants to be.

There is nothing in scripture that parades Mary around after the death of Christ. The apostles don't even mention her. Clearly if Mary was so significant to attracting followers then one wonders why there wasn't more history about a church that she started.

And if you go to the Basilica of Guadalupe (or any other Catholic church) you can't help but notice ...

How many Catholic churches have you been in overseas? I have been to quite a few. Nothing personal but I find Catholic churches in Third World countries border on the occult.

43 posted on 06/18/2007 4:17:29 PM PDT by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Campion; wmfights
Do you really think that insulting language like this accomplishes anything, or wins anyone to your point of view?

I didn't mean to be insulting. Would you prefer that I say the Marian doctrine of the Catholic Church, as it stands today, is built upon no scriptural or historical traditions, a tissue of distorted theology and experiences from questionable individuals that cannot verify where they have received their visions from? Would that win you to my view? It's true but somehow I doubt you will be persuaded.

44 posted on 06/18/2007 4:33:04 PM PDT by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD; Campion
Would that win you to my view? It's true but somehow I doubt you will be persuaded.

Campion; a couple years ago, maybe less, you told me that for RC's you view a disagreement with your church's doctrines/dogma as an attack on your faith. I am a Baptist and we question everything and test it against what Scripture says. It is easier to persuade a Baptist than a RC because we do not associate our faith with a particular church.

45 posted on 06/18/2007 6:06:24 PM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: NYer

bumpus ad summum


46 posted on 06/18/2007 8:33:30 PM PDT by Dajjal
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
Harley D wrote:

Cloth evaluation aside, a more basic question is how does one know this was “Our Lady of Guadalupe”?

The short answer is that it has been carefully guarded (but not preserved since 1531). Many Native Americans have touched the cloth before it was put under control probably about 200 years ago. It is a miracle in itself that this piece of cactus cloth did not disentegrate from the handling over about 200 years... But miracles occurred because of the image, and that is why it has been carefully guarded since December, 1531...

Since you ask the question, there are two. Long before the miraculous appearance on the tilma in Mexico City, there was a statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Spain.

In fact, after Cortez conquered Montezuma and his people (in Mexico City), when Cortez returned to Spain, he spent 9 days in front of the statue in Spain (Our Lady of Guadalupe in Spain).

Of course, there was no Mexico City in existence when Cortez conquered the Aztecs. It was their city with pyramids and altars for human sacrifice...

The image (Our Lady of Guadalupe [Mexico City]))had a special meaning to the Native Americans. When the miraculous event occurred, runners when from village to village drawing the image. It was understood by the images, as the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe (Mexico City) has special things that Native Americans understood.

For example, the BLACK QUARTER MOON that the woman is standing on is one of the Native Americans gods.

The fact that the woman is bowing to a higher being meant to the Native Americans that they worshipped a false god.

One way to know is that the original was painted over by the Native American Indians to make her look more like them...

There are a number of certified miracles associated with the original image of Our Lady of Guadalupe (Mexico City) -- an Indian was killed by accident by some celebrations regarding the image (being shot by an arrow). The person was brought before the image and came back to life.

The other occurred in the 1920s when the FREE MASONS tried to blow up the image, but even with powerful explosives, they did not even crack the glass (it was not protected by bullet proof glass back then)...

47 posted on 06/18/2007 11:27:15 PM PDT by topher (Let us return to old-fashioned morality - morality that has stood the test of time...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD; Aquinasfan; Campion; sandyeggo
Harley,

From your source: This is the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe as recorded by Luis Lasso de la Vega in 1649, a translation from the Nahuatl indian dialect. This was written 118 years after the event.

Though your source is good, it is the third and later telling of the story of Guadalupe. The following is taken from the first and oldest account, written about 1540, nine years after the events occurred.

http://www.maryourmother.net/Guadalupe.html

The following account of the five apparitions in three days is based on the oldest written record of the miracle of Our Lady of Guadalupe, the Nican Mopohua, written in Nahuatl about 1540 by Don Antonio Valeriano, one of the first Aztec Indians educated by the Franciscans at the Bishop's Colegio de la Santa Cruz.

"I am the Virgin Mary, Mother of the one true God, of Him who gives life. He is Lord and Creator of heaven and of earth.

I desire that there be built a temple at this place where I want to manifest Him, make him known, give Him to all people through my love, my compassion, my help, and my protection.

I truly am your merciful Mother, your Mother and the Mother of all who dwell in this land, and of all mankind, of all those who love me, of those who cry to me, and of those who seek and place their trust in me. Here I shall listen to their weeping and their sorrows. I shall take them all to my heart, and I shall cure their many sufferings, afflictions, and sorrows.

So run now to Tenochtitlan and tell the Lord Bishop all that you have seen and heard."

Notice the bolded section. It is not recounted in the later source. Most importantly, notice that Our Lady does not request that a temple be built in her honor but that she desires to "manifest Him, make him known, give Him to all people". Also take note that she does so "through my love, my compassion, my help, and my protection".

The story of Guadalupe is much more than Mary's appearance to Juan Diego and the events that followed. Fifteen hundred years earlier, Mary said yes to the angel Gabriel and 9 months later brought forth her first-born son. She did this through her love, compassion, help and protection to manifest Him, make Him known and give Him to all the people. In 1531, she brought Christmas to the New World again desiring to manifest Him, make Him known, give Him to all people through her love, compassion, help, and protection. Thus she brought glory to God by bringing Him to the New World.

48 posted on 06/18/2007 11:47:32 PM PDT by pipeorganman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: wmfights
"The greatest stumbling block to anyone searching for the psychological origins of the Tepeyac apparitions is the fact that there are no accounts of these apparitions that date from the period of the apparitions themselves."

Would this satisfy as coming from the period of the apparations thenselves?

"The following account of the five apparitions in three days is based on the oldest written record of the miracle of Our Lady of Guadalupe, the Nican Mopohua, written in Nahuatl about 1540 by Don Antonio Valeriano, one of the first Aztec Indians educated by the Franciscans at the Bishop's Colegio de la Santa Cruz."

source: http://www.maryourmother.net/Guadalupe.html

From the same source: "He (Juan Diego) died peacefully on May 30, 1548 and was buried at Tepeyac. Bishop Zumarrage died only three days after Juan Diego."

Appears that Don Antonio Valeriano wrote of the apparations while Juan Diego and Bishop Zumarrage were still among the living. Yet we accept the accounts of Jesus eventhough the New testament was written some 30+ years after He ascended into Heaven.

There are, for instance, no references to any apparitions occurring at Tepeyac in the writings of Bishop Zumarraga, even though he was supposed to have been a central participant in the drama."

So that proves that Guadalupe did not occur? Doesn't this college professor know that an argument from silence is useless and proves nothing. All he has is conjecture.

"The greatest stumbling block to anyone searching for the psychological origins of the Tepeyac apparitions"

No, the greatest stumbling block is searching for psychological origins rather than searching for the spiritual origins, or better yet, having faith that God deigned, through the Virgin Mary, to manifest Himself to the Indian people of Mexico.

Some may think that the major and Church confirmed apparations of the Blessed Virgin Mary are rooted in psychosis. Fine, go ahead. Just don't be suprised when we get the following scholarly study:

The Cult of the Jesus, and on page 183 it states:

The greatest stumbling block to anyone searching for the psychological origins of the life of Jesus is the fact that there are no accounts of his life that date from the period of his life. There are, for instance, no references to his life in the writings of his mother Mary, even though she was supposed to have been a central participant in the drama."

Sorry, but all that your author proves is that he is wacky.

49 posted on 06/19/2007 12:57:05 AM PDT by pipeorganman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: pipeorganman; wmfights; HarleyD
And now another side of the story -----

Virgin of Guadalupe a Fraud, Says Abbot

by Conrad Goeringer [June 10, 1996]

"Debate, accusations and anger erupted last week throughout Mexico amidst charges that "the Mother of all Mexicans" -- the Virgin of Guadalupe -- is a legend or hoax. Abbot Guillermo Schulemburg, who operates the enormous Mexico City basilica build in honor of the minor deity, was quoted in an Italian magazine as saying that the peasant Juan Diego (to whom the Virgin supposedly appeared) never existed. According to Reuters, that admission is having the effect of "casting the entire legend into doubt."

"According to the legend, the Virgin of Guadalupe appeared to Diego on a hilltop near Mexico City -- a site which, coincidentally, was sacred to Aztec Indians who populated the region. The dark-skinned apparition supposedly told Juan Diego to construct a temple in her honor; she was soon dubbed the Virgin of Guadalupe, referring to an Aztec term "Coatlallope" which means "the one who crushed the serpent."

"All of which is interesting, especially to religious skeptics who see various social and political factors at work in constructing the legend -- not a metaphysical apparition. Present-day Mexico City sits on top of the old Aztec Island capitol once known as Tenochtitlan. After the founding of the city, the theocratic empire quickly absorbed neighboring tribal groups through a series of "flower wars", and eventually included a good portion of modern Mexico and ranged as far south as Guatamala. In 1521, the Spaniard Hernando Cortes forged an alliance with discontented tribes, and crushed the "Triple Alliance" which ruled the Aztec state.

"While the Aztec empire was warlike and practiced religious rituals of blood sacrifice, Cortes and his Catholic missionaries began their own bloody campaign to dismantle the culture and enslave the population. Huge amounts of gold were appropriated and shipped to Spain (or ended up as sunken treasure which is still sought today.)

"Meanwhile, Christian missionaries began mass-conversion of the newly colonized Indians, and started to graft Catholic rituals and symbols onto the old religious metaphors. The giant Aztec Temple of the Sun was demolished, and rubble from it and other structures was used to fill in the surrounding swampland, including Lake Texcoco. On the site of the old Temple was erected an enormous Catholic cathedral.

"With the political colonization complete, Catholic authorities moved to finish off the social, religious and mental colonization of the indigenous peoples. Was the "Virgin of Guadalupe" part of this process?

"Today, the Virgin is a national symbol. Notes Reuters: "Known simply as 'La Virgen' throughout Mesoamerica, her image, which miraculously appeared on Juan Diego's cloak, is standard decoration in any Mexican home or car." The site of the alleged apparition was earlier a shrine devoted to the worship of the Indian goddess, Tonantzin, known as "Our Mother."

"The Abbot Tells All: The recent flap began when the Mexican daily paper Reforma quoted Abbot Schulemburg as saying: "(Juan Diego) is a symbol, not a reality." The abbot, who is now 81, then claimed he was misquoted, and Archbishop Sergio Obeso Rivera commented that: "The statement of the abbot must have been misinterpreted because you just can't say that (Diego did not exist.)"

"Schulemburg's quote was first thought to have been published in the Italian magazine "30 Giorno": but it then turned out that the Giroro article was based on an interview given "months earlier" (Reuters) with the local Catholic publication known as Ixtus. Reuters reported that "In that interview -- never denied by the abbot -- Schulemburg said Juan Diego symbolized the marriage between Catholicism and traditional Indian religions and said his beatification recognized a 'cult', not a real person."

"Associated Press reported similar wording. Abbot Schulenburg (sic) is reported to have said that the 1990 beatification of Juan Diego by the Pope "is a recognition of a cult. It is not a recognition of the physical, real existence of a person."

"AP also reports that "small protests" broke out once the statement was made public, and that "Demonstrators scrawled graffiti on church walls vilifying the abbot and demanding his ouster."

"Even so, local religious fanatics are apparently unaware that Abbot Schulemburg is not alone in his opinions. "Some church leaders," noted AP last week, "argued the apparition of the brown-skinned Virgin was a fable created to allow the Indians to continue to worship their own goddess. Others said the Spanish made up the story to help convert Mexico's Indians to Catholicism."

"The man who orchestrated the campaign for the beatification to sainthood of Juan Diego is now demanding that Abbot Schulemburg resign.

"A final word about the Virgin of Guadalupe. Today, she is depicted as having fair skin; she stands on the horns of a bull, said to symbolize fertility and potency, or on the outline of a crescent moon -- another symbol of the earth goddess.

50 posted on 06/19/2007 4:32:43 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-118 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson