Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
God did not create evil
Is God the creator of all things, or just some things?
Certainly God does not perform evil. God is all holy. As Creator of all things, He's the first cause of all things. And again, there is Scripture to back up these assertions...
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." -- Isaiah 45:5-7"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Satan is a created being. He has no power other than what the God of all creation permits him.
As human beings, we are all tempted by Satan. But as Christians, we have been given the indwelling Holy Spirit who gives us the strength and will to prevail against all evil.
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you." -- John 16:1-15 "These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
That's like saying a criminal who rejects the law is without the judge and jury.
Fat chance.
But to each his own.
Thank you for the discussion, D-fendr! Hugs!!!
Truly, there is nothing of which anything can be made but God's will - either His creative will or His permissive will.
Nothing pre-exists God - not powers, not principalities, not time, not space, not things, not events.
His Name is I AM and Alpha and Omega.
To God be the glory!
You are the only one who mentioned the word 'obligated.' There is enough biblical material to suggest that, as A-G says "there is no reason to question God's mercy." I don't question it. You do.
If you don't question God's mercy then clearly you must know on what basis he would give you mercy. So why would God show mercy to you?
The mention of the OT as being the foreshadowing is perfectly in line with both particular Churches of the catholic Church and orthodox Faith.
The most important corollary to the understanding that hell is a state and not a physical place, is that we bondmen ourselves to hell by freely and willingly rejecting God.
As for the "hell fire," it is not God's wrath but God's love experienced by those who hate Him.
Thank you for posting this.
1308
The doctrine of the fall of Satan, as well as of the fall of the angels, is found also in Babylonia (Schrader, l.c. p. 464)
Likewise, it is significant to note that
The high development of the demonology of the New Testament presupposes a long period of evolution. In the Gospels the beliefs of the lower orders of society find expression
In other words, popular beliefs and mythology (influenced by Zoroastrianism).
I find it interetsing that Judaism at one point realized that
sin itself, and not Satan, is the accuser (Ab. iv. 11)
I have also maintained that in Judaism of the time when Chirst walked the earth, Satan was not considered the enemy of God or a fallen angel and that this was entirely a Christian (aporcyphal) belief. Your sources confirm this, and the fact that popular mythology had great influence on Christianity, as well as Judaism with some delay:
The Angeology of the Talmud, moreover, proves that, according to the older view (until about 200 C.E.), punishment was inflicted by angels and not by Satan. In the course of time, however, official Judaism, beginning perhaps with Johanan (d. 279), absorbed the popular concepts of Satan, which doubtless forced their way gradually from the lower classes to the most cultured.
Hell was always a place in pagan Greek religions and in Judaism. Even in early Christianity, the vivid imagery of hell (as well as paradise) are taken literally (a very pagan characteristic). In fact, there is no doubt that "hell" is inside the earth, below the earth's surface (where there is fire indeed!).
As your source points out, the really " bad guys" would be thrown into hell while they were still alive by earth "opening her mouth" (Num. xvi. 30).
Morover, it is clear in the OT and other jewish sourcres that God is "in charge" of hell. This is where He sends His "bad" children. But, hell is still a continuation of present life (no fire), except that everyone is stripped of their dignity:
Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol. The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life.
The extent of mythology more than "doctrine" of men is exemplified in the concept of Gehenna (a latter-day jewish development) by this passage
Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire
Clearly, such nonse is similar to many similar descriptions of natural phenomena described in the OT, which is a mixture of popular beliefs, mythology, history and God's gradual revelation.
You might find it interesting that the author sees Hebrews 2 which you have quoted here as having the same meaning as the (apocryphal) Wisdom 2:24 – i.e. that Satan is the one “who brought death into the world.”
I wouldn't expect anything else! The NT is, full of Apocryphal concepts and Septuagint quotes. Which is what makes Protestant rejection of both that much more ridiculous.
The writer of Hebrews was by all accounts an apocalyptic Jew and as such would hold on tho such popular beliefs. Yet we know that death was brought into the world by the sin of our ancestral parents.
Evil has no "life" of its own. It is not something God "created." It is a manifestation of our rebellion against God, of un-Godly things we do.
Are you saying that God will give you mercy because you are such a merciful guy?
Are you suggesting that God will be merciful to everyone?
What exactly are you attempting to say?
It seems to me that you are suggesting two things.
1) Satan is not real, and
2) Hebrews is not inspired.
Who exactly was the character that tempted Jesus in the wilderness?
Funny, I feel the same about you posts.
Isa 45:5-7
KJV no doubt? Isa 45:7 does not say "evil" but calamity, unpleasantness, or misery, etc. neither of which is inherently "evil."
Is God the creator of all things, or just some things?
That is cultism. Christians believed God is good, merciful and just. Any suggestion that God is the creator of evil is un-Christian. If He created evil then He is the source of evil, which makes Him evil, because evil can only come from that which is evil.
Satan is a created being. He has no power other than what the God of all creation permits him
So what? If you are preordained to salvation, as the Reformed proclaim, Satan's tempting will do absolutely nothing as regards someone's salvation or perdition, which makes the whole idea of Satan tempting anyone pointless.
Furthermore, it makes the concept of Satan as a "fallen angel" an oxymoron. If he has no free will, as the reformed theology says, then Satan's "rebellion" is not really a rebellion, is it? And his "fall," then is not his fall at all, is it?
No, because He is.
Are you suggesting that God will be merciful to everyone?
No.
What exactly are you attempting to say?
That God is merciful not because He should be but because He is. "He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Because He is impartial. Because He forgives those who repent.
Satan was never a proper name in Judaism; the correct Jewish rendition of the "name" of this angel is the accuser or ha-satan. Thus, in the east we never speak of "evil" but of the evil (actually crafty) one.
Biblical development of demonology clearly shows a progression of an obedient servant of God (ha-satan) to the personification of evil under the influence of Babylonian Zoroastrianism, which, through popular belief, found its way into Christian demonology through Apocrypha.
I never suggested Hebrews is not inspired. Just because the Protestants don't recognize Septuagint as the inspired word of God and Apocrypha (which even the Apostles considered inspired because they use their concepts), is the Protestants' loss, and possibly even deception.
We could speak of temptation as a tendency to commit evil, to which human nature is subjected at all time, through passions. Since Christ was fully human, felt pain and suffering, and was subject to passion, He was also tempted. He chose to resist those temptations.
Whether evil is personalized or not is irrelevant. The point is that our choices either accept or reject God, and result in good or evil. When we give in to ungodly thoughts and commit ungodly acts, we commit evil. There is no devil or Satan to blame, other than us. Placing the blame on some "evil angel" is clearly passing the buck instead of fessing up to our own responsibility.
And who is that?
Are you questioning the KJV in general or do you actually think the verse is "calamity" and not "evil" in the KJV?
I'll repeat my earlier statement since you didn't address it. Satan is a created being. He has no power other than what the God of all creation permits him.
Or is Satan not a being created by God? Does Satan only exist in Christian "mythology?"
The KJV in general. The word "evil" in particular (Isa 45:7) is misleading.
I'll repeat my earlier statement since you didn't address it. Satan is a created being
Satan is created but he was not created evil.
Does Satan only exist in Christian "mythology?"
Satan exists in the Old Testament Judaism as a different concept from the devil in Christianity.
I am asking you: did God create evil? Is evil a creature of God? Yes or no?
Amen. Colossians are perfect verses.
Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go." -- Isaiah 48:16-17"Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
I guess the same "one" we conveniently blame all our weaknesses on. Sort of like Eve "It wasn't me; the serpent made me do it...poor me."
You were given the answer already but apparently it wasn't to your liking.
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." -- Isaiah 45:5-7"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Fear not, Kosta. God is in control.
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