Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
since Marlowe has asked me not to post to him i don’t intend to take part...
that said it i normally reffered to as the sin of Adam not the sin of Eve...
“There is no devil or Satan to blame, other than us. Placing the blame on some “evil angel” is clearly passing the buck instead of fessing up to our own responsibility.”
Why then in your baptismal liturgy does the Priest ask the parents and godparents, three times, “do you renounce Satan?” if he does not have culpability in sin?
Renouncing Satan (much as renouncing the sins of the Bishop of Rome) has nothing to do with culpability and everything to do with renouncing the ways and beleifs that lead to either.
I suppose there was no serpent either?
Eve was "deceived". If there were no "serpent" and no "Satan", then who deceived Eve?
God is all powerful, all knowing, and all present. Therefore, there is no way when God created Satan that God was not aware that Satan would rebel. God could have created differently, but chose not to.
He chose this particular creation to create. He set it in motion.
Therefore, God is ORIGINATOR of everything, however, He is not the author of evil/wickedness. That came from Satan.
(Evil/calamity is different than evil/wickedness. Floods, for example, are a calamity(evil) and they CAN be directly initiated by God.)
If that is incorrect, please let me know, kosta50.
In other words, the net result is that kosta50’s theology is based on an interpretation over time – and thus, when he debates with us, he is “coming from” a worldview which is counter-indicative to many of us.
Our to put it another way, kosta50’s theology is a “doctrine and tradition of man” per se.
And herein lies a fatal flaw of that worldview: the apostolic succession took it upon itself to pick and choose that which was to be preserved and that which was to be discarded.
The book of Enoch is a great example, the Jews hated it because it referred to Christ so they discarded it - and the Catholics hated it because it referred to angels and demons and they discarded it. This even though it is quoted in Scripture in Jude, in John and in Peter’s epistle – the “rule” which is usually honored for determining what will be preserved or not.
If it were not for the fragments found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, there would be no proof that it existed even though it was cherished by many of the early church fathers and the Ethiopians who kept a version over the millennia which may or may not be faithful – which we cannot fully determine because the chain of custody was broken.
Obviously then, there is no assurance that all of the manuscripts of non-affiliated assemblies survived, perhaps some manuscripts declared practices of the succession, e.g. transubstantiation, to be an abomination. But how would we know?
At bottom, each Christian must decide Whom he will believe – God or a counsel or a trusted religious leader, etc.
For me, there is not contest at all. I happily receive as certain knowledge only God the Father’s revelations in (1) Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God, (2) the indwelling Holy Spirit, (3) Scripture which the indwelling Spirit personally authenticates and (4) Creation, both spiritual and physical. Everything else – including my own sensory perception and reason, ancient manuscripts, the counsel of others et al - is greatly subordinated.
Thus in this discussion – my testimony is that the Lake of Fire is real, the Great White Throne Judgment is real, Hell is real, Heaven is real, Death is real, Life is real, Evil is real, Good is real, Satan is real, Paradise is real, this heaven and earth is real, the new heaven and earth is real.
“Real” includes both physical and spiritual reality.
A thing is true because God said it.
To God be the glory!
No, you didn't give me the answer. Do you believe that God created evil? Yes or no, Dr. E. No hyperboles.
The sin was committed by Eve first. However, Adam was the first to refuse to repent. It was the refusal to repent (Adam blamed God and Eve blamed the serpent—both were passing the buck) that sealed their fate. The rules haven't changed. We all sin, but not all repent and cannot be saved.
Satan is a personification of all evil. Renouncing all evil is not passing the buck. Orthodoxy teaches that we always blame ourselves first, for a good reason.
I appreciate the statement of faith in the received and inspired Word of God.
I would change the above italicized quote from your post, A-G, to say: "God is Spirit, so the spiritual realm is the greater of all realms. The physical or any other realm would be a subset of the greater. There is no realm to which God does not have access."
Is Satan a real person? Was there a person who took Jesus to the high mountain and the pinnacle of the Temple? Or did Jesus take himself there in order to somehow be tempted by his own desires?
If there was no person who took Jesus up to the high mountain and tempted Jesus to worship him, then Jesus, by his own desires, was tempted to worship the personification of evil. Either that or the Gospel writers were just making this stuff up for dramatic effect.
Did Jesus even go to the pinnacle of the temple? Is that story just a fable? Did Jesus take himself up to the pinnacle of the temple because he had some inward desire to worship evil?
This is really weird stuff, kosta. Does your church agree with you on this stuff.
The serpent is temptation presented by the tree. God placed it there so that we would know the limit of our freedom.
So, yes of course the seprent was there, as it is in a cream puff if you are a diabetic. Aything that is a temptation to us is the proverbial serpent, a bait, the "forbidden fruit."
Eve was "deceived". If there were no "serpent" and no "Satan", then who deceived Eve?
Yes, of course. Who else? The temptation was there, the sin was committed by Eve giving in to temptation. The rules haven't changed. This happens over and over every day. And we have no one but ourselves to blame for it.
Our giving in to temptation is the source of sin. It is an act committed by us, by our choice and free will.
Eve did exactly what God told her not to do because she did not believe God but herself because to her "the fruit was good to eat."
Adam and Eve fell from grace because they trusted themselves more than God. Happens every day to all their descendents. The "serpent" didn't do it. They did it. We do it. But we all like to say "the devil made me do it," just as Eve blamed the serpent. That's called passing the buck.
That is correct. Everything God made was good. And yes, calamity/evil is not the same wickedness/evil. Very well said.
God did not create wickendess. The problem is that by calling calamity evil (KJV) leads one to beleive He also created wickedness.
*****The serpent is temptation presented by the tree****
Interesting. Because the bible clearly shows that Eve was not tempted by the tree until the serpent lied to her and told her that she would not die. It was only then that she looked at the tree and saw that it was pleasant to the eye, and she was tempted by Satan’s promise that if she would partake of it, she would become as God.
These were lies. Eve did not lie to herself, she was lied to by the serpent.
Genesis 3:1-6 KJV
(1) Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
(2) And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
(3) But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
(4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
(5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
(6) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
How much more of the Bible don’t you believe? Do you believe that God created the heavens and the earth? How long did it take him? Was there a flood? Did Jonah get swallowed by a great fish?
Jesus seems to believe these were all actual events.
Paul seems to believe that the serpent was a real being:
2 Corinthians 11:3 KJV
(3) But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
On what authority do you deny the personhood of Satan or the existence of the serpent?
It won’t be catholic or orthodox, thank you. The truth doesn’t hurt because it’s not the truth. the Body of Christ is the true church, not a denomination.
Wow, what a GREAT post! This is one of the best answers I’ve seen on these threads. Thank you! JESUS is the head of the Church, the Body of Christ, the ONE true church.
Thank you for your fine and devoted service. Don’t let the ‘turkeys get you down.’
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