Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[adiaireton8]

I still don't know what you think schism would look like, and how it would differ from the present state of Protestant disunity.

You seem to be using the level of unity in families you know as the standard for how unified the Church should be. But Christ has a higher standard for how unified His Church should be. He prays in John 17 that we would be one as He and the Father are one. So it seems to me that you are lowering Christ's standard for the degree of unity in His Church. Paul in 1 Cor 10 makes it very clear that there are to be no divisions among us. But what is a plurality of denominations if not divisions among us? Paul says that we must all agree, that we must all have the same mind and the same judgment. Your position, on the other hand, seems to 'water down' what Paul is saying, and settle for a lower standard of unity.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

A schism is something that tears apart the fabric of belief. Do you believe in Jesus and are counting on his work on the cross to save you? If so, we are united.

So the Montanist, Novatian and Donatist schisms were, in your view, not even schisms at all!

Have you read the fathers and carefully studied the first five-hundred years of Church history?

-A8

[Alamo-Girl]

And which human being has the Holy Spirit and is truly being led by the Holy Spirit?

How to recognize a brother or sister in Christ?

First, we must have "ears to hear" which is a gift from the Father:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. – John 6:65

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. – Matt 16:17

Then we notice the fruits. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit (Matt 7) The fruits of the Spirit are: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control (paraphrased from Galatians 5.)

And when he speaks, we recognize his testimony:

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. – I Cor 12:3

And from that point forward, it is conversing in a Spiritual language - that those who are not brothers and sisters in Christ cannot understand:

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. II Cor 2:6-16

[irishtenor]

But what you are saying is that, unless we totally agree on everything, there is schism. I don’t agree. No one on the face of the earth right now agrees totally with you or me. No one. What we can agree on are the basic beliefs in Christ. There we can have unity.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights!

[fortheDeclaration]

Belief, not works. Belief, not baptism. Belief.

Amen.

Eph.2:8, Rom.3:28.

[fortheDeclaration]

yeah but Christ never broke the covenant God made with the jews,

And who says that He did?

[P-Marlowe]

As is evidenced by this thread, if there is "schism" in the Body of Christ, it is the Catholics and EO's who are the schismatics. Protestants do not claim any spiritual superiority over either each other or over believers who happen to be EO's or RC's. We preach unity in Christ whereas the RC's and EO's preach unity only in regard to their Churches. If you are not in communion with their non scriptural dogma and their man made traditions, then you are the schismatic.

In psychology that is known as projection.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen. Terrific answer to that constant question. If the Holy Spirit quickens our minds and facilitates our understanding of Scripture, the "proof" is in the very real evidence of it -- the fruits of the Spirit.

"The work of the Spirit, then, is joined to the word of God. But a distinction is made, that we may know that the external word is of no avail by itself unless animated by the power of the Spirit...All power of action, then, resides in the Spirit himself." - John Calvin

[Dr. Eckleburg]

That is what all the heretics claimed

What does it matter that heretics mouth error and call it truth?

Without the guidance of the magisterium, people will misinterpret the Scriptures even on "important things".

lol. But according to the word of God, the magisterium is riddled with errors. Why would I put faith in such a misguided organization that gets so much wrong?

Trust the Scriptures, A8, and trust the power of God to accomplish His will and the power of the Holy Spirit to lead you in righteousness.

"Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright." -- Psalm 20:7-8

[fortheDeclaration]

Additionally, the RCC wrongly teaches that a man must be absolved of his sins by a priest and the sacraments before he gets into heaven. This lends a definite nervousness to life that's totally useless. God alone determines the day we're born and the day we die. He knows every step of our walk with Him, and one way or another, He will bring safely home every one of His sheep.

Amen (Phil.1:6)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Visible unity regarding doctrine is important. But correct doctrine is more important.

With that understanding, most Protestant churches contain much more truth and much less error than the RCC.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen. “Form over substance.”

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Heaven help us. We have turned worship of God into worship of self, while deluding ourselves into thinking that it is God whom we are worshipping.

LOL. "Worship of self?"

It's the RCC that worships something other than the Triune God and follows a corrupted worship service that dares to say the Lord's Supper is "invalid" if the "wrong words" are used by the priest.

Form over substance. Magic over mercy.

[DragoonEnNoir]

Elegantly said Alamo.

I would add ( based on the same verses on 'ears to hear" and from 2 Cor ) discernment of scripture.

A co-worker was recently conversing with a friend whom she shares regular time with. They were looking at The Rich Young Man in Matthew 19:16-30. They had just finished reading Christ's reply "Why do you ask me what is good. There is only One who is good." (Mt 19:17), when her friend began laughing.

She asked him, "Why are you laughing?"

He replied, "Because Jesus is really asking him, do you believe I am God?"

The Spirit of God has begun work on this man, and it is evidenced in his ears to hear, his fruit, his growing love of God and His Word, and his increased speaking and understanding of that which has freely been given to us.

[kawaii]

folks who suggest that the repentant theif died under the new covenant and hence needed to baptize and beleive.

[kawaii]

As is evidenced by this thread, if there is "schism" in the Body of Christ, it is the Catholics and EO's who are the schismatics. Protestants do not claim any spiritual superiority over either each other or over believers who happen to be EO's or RC's. We preach unity in Christ whereas the RC's and EO's preach unity only in regard to their Churches. If you are not in communion with their non scriptural dogma and their man made traditions, then you are the schismatic. In psychology that is known as projection.

This is a bit more like denial, and it's on the part of protestants:

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Act 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2Th 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

[kawaii]

to clarify this is directed at the two posters who’ve asked i not post to them i wouldn’t want to offend them by pinging them, the rest of you feel free to have at anything i say...

[fortheDeclaration]

folks who suggest that the repentant theif died under the new covenant and hence needed to baptize and beleive.

The thief did die under the New Testament and his faith in Christ saved him.

The issue in Mark 16 isn't the Baptism, it is the believing, since what is repeated in the second part of the verse is 'and he that believeth not is condemned'

Moreover, Christ gave that command after His Resurrection, so the Baptism is referring to the spiritual baptism of 1Cor.12:13, not water baptism.

[kawaii]

Please explain how he could die under the New Testament when the Old had yet to be fullfilled?

The Temple was not yet destroyed, Christ had not yet risen, the Devil had not yet been confronted in Hell.

what is clear from mark 16:16 is that both are necessary however baptism will not save apostates.

the reason st john the forerunner is in the Bible is the need for both baptisms.