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To: kosta50

“... and it may very well be that what the prophets saw was Christ in their minds but couldn’t express it fully, nor did anyone see it at the time when they were written.”

I believe that is precisely one of the points of +Athanasius the Great in “On the Incarnation”. And its an important point. It can, and is, argued that the pre-figurings of Christ and the Trinity and Panagia which the Fathers and the writers of the NT found in the OT were not there for the OT people, but rather for the generations of the Incarnation and post Incarnation to establish Who Christ is. The thinking is that these pre-figurings are meaningless in a Christian context, without the reality of the Incarnation.

You are of course correct that there is nothing in the OT which explicitly points to the Christ of the NT, but that does not necessarily mean that the pre-figurings found by the Fathers were “retro-engineering”. Perhaps it does, but if the Incarnation is the once for all miracle we believe it is, then that reality could very well lead men to an understanding of scripture which was denied to earlier people.

“The west is missing the point: being a Christian is not memorizing the infallible bible but a way of life, and that way of life is found in the Church.”

Exactly right, because the created purpose of man is to attain theosis, to become like Christ. You mentioned earlier that even the concept of sin is different in the East from the West. As you know, the Greek word for sin is “amartia”. That’s the word the NT uses and it means “to miss the mark” or “to be off the mark”. The mark is Christ. Is this what the West believes? No, not even close. So, what are we taught? Well, as +Symeon the New Theologian says:

“In the future life the Christian is not examined if he has renounced the whole world for Christ’s love, or if he has distributed his riches to the poor or if he fasted or kept vigil or prayed, or if he wept and lamented for his sins, or if he has done any other good in this life, but he is examined attentively if he has any similitude with Christ, as a son does with his father.”

And we learn this leading a Christian life during which we die to the self, our lives being hidden in Christ. We lead that life in The Church as liturgical people.


13,096 posted on 01/29/2008 7:31:39 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; Zero Sum
The thinking is that these pre-figurings are meaningless in a Christian context, without the reality of the Incarnation

Exactly. It's a one-way mirror. Those on the other side could not see, but we can; that mirror being the Gospels, which are, for the lack of a better word retrovision.

The Gospels are the prism through which we can separate the white light of the Old Testament into its component colors.

The world had to wait for Christ to be able to find Him in the prophets' visions without making sweeping generalizations about the entire OT.

For, there is mercy and love in the OT, but its' not that of the Gospels. The New Testament reminds us that law and the prophets are love [cf Mat 7:12, Mat 22:37-41, Rom 13:10]

The love and mercy of the OT are limited to the Jews. But through Chirst we believe God loves not only the Jews but all of mankind. That message was never discovered in the OT before Christ.

but if the Incarnation is the once for all miracle we believe it is, then that reality could very well lead men to an understanding of scripture which was denied to earlier people

That's what I am trying to say. All the visions and inspirations of the prophest could not predict the extreme humility of Incarnation! The extreme humility of the King of Kings born in unglorious way, becoming a man, to a teen-age unwed Mother. Nor could they foresee that He would be tortured and humniliated by mere humans and put to death for our salvation. No one foresaw a humble (the Calvinsits would say "weak") God.

+Symeon the New Theologian...In the future life the Christian is not examined if he has renounced the whole world for Christ’s love, or if he has distributed his riches to the poor or if he fasted or kept vigil or prayed, or if he wept and lamented for his sins, or if he has done any other good in this life, but he is examined attentively if he has any similitude with Christ, as a son does with his father.”

+Symeon the New Theologian is a gold mine of eye-openers. in his "On Faith," he says "I neither fasted, nor kept all night vigils, nor slept on the bare ground, but—in the words of the Pslamist—I humbled myself and God saved me."

13,097 posted on 01/29/2008 8:20:19 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50

***“The west is missing the point: being a Christian is not memorizing the infallible bible but a way of life, and that way of life is found in the Church.”***

If that is what you think, you are WAY off. You should spend more time around REAL protestants. We drink beer and everything :>)

We do encourage people to memorize scripture, but that is not the end all to living a life of Christ. We also encourage charity, loving your neighbor, witnessing, etc.

***Exactly right, because the created purpose of man is to attain theosis, to become like Christ.***

We call it sanctification, the Holy Spirit working in us to be more Christ like.


13,100 posted on 01/29/2008 7:34:39 PM PST by irishtenor (Check out my blog at http://boompa53.blogspot.com/)
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