Posted on 08/13/2007 4:37:16 PM PDT by NYer
Why not? Are you afraid of His Name?
You have yet to substantiate your accusation. Bluster won't work, here, nor simple assertion. Try some facts. You've made an accusation.
Again, in Jesus' Name, I demand that you either substantiate it (which we both know you cannot do), or retract it.
I'd recommend admitting that you're wrong. It's easier that way, because it's true. The Truth will make you free.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
You have yet to substantiate your accusation. Bluster won’t work, here, nor simple assertion. Try some facts. You’ve made an accusation.
Again, in Jesus’ Name, I demand that you either substantiate it (which we both know you cannot do), or retract it.
I’d recommend admitting that you’re wrong. It’s easier that way, because it’s true. The Truth will make you free.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
The problem for you is, it is Christ I believe in and don’t want His name tainted with your FALSE PROPHETS and praying to dead sinners.
Christ isn’t wrong and neither am I in trying to defend Him from being lumped in with false prophets.
Your wordsmithing is like that of a kindergartner. You’re best bet is to knock it off.
If you must, pray to Mary, pray to the your false prophet Fatima but don’t try and boast of your belief in Christ when YOU show OTHERWISE.
I also find it amusing how you snuggle up to the daughter of Mohammad, Fatima and get all beside yourself when she is condemmed and rightfully her father, Mohammad is condemned. I don't pary TO Mary, your "Queen of Heaven" or this Fatima freak. I ONLY pray to Christ - so in your next selective cut/paste include that too. Cuddle up with murders and false prophets and reject BIBLE based Christians - yeah makes sense ONLY if you are Catholic.
Since we both know that you cannot do so, honour and honesty, and the Ten Commandments written by God whom you worship demand that you retract your accusation.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
This is the first I've read a claim that Catholics pray to Mohammed's daughter Fatima. I have read that Muslims worship at the Catholic Fatima shrine in Portugal. But that is not the same thing at all.
More importantly, the claim itself is highly inflammatory not unlike a Jack Chick tract (which is disallowed) - so it should either be sourced, retracted or debunked on this thread.
If the accusation were more specific, ie: "Catholics pray to Mohammed's daughter at the Shrine of the Great Thumb in East Timbuktu", then one could consider "debunking" by illustrating what is actually going on there. But an open-ended, blanket assertion such as was made in #95 does not lend itself to such. So your first two options only apply: proof or retraction.
I further note that this is not a matter of doctrinal dispute. It is a matter of observable fact. Blatant falsehoods as to matters of observable fact are, IMO, beyond the pale of civilised discussion.
The "Fatima" to which Catholics typically refer in a Catholic context is a town in Portugal, not a person, not a dead person, and most certainly not Mohammed's daughter.
It's important as the site of an apparition of Mary, and also the archangel Michael to three children in the year 1917. Fatima (Mohammed's "spiritually wayward" [?] daughter) did not appear at Fatima, the town.
Fatima (the town) may have been named after Fatima (Mohammed's daughter) back when Muslims controlled that part of the world (before the Christians drove them out). Or not.
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary//resources/shrines/ugandanp.html
Marian National Patronages
The following is a listing of Marian patronages with explicitly identifiable and most acclaimed shrines, some of them with miraculous images. This is not a comprehensive inventory of National Shrines, and our listing will be updated periodically.
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary//resources/shrines/ugandanp.html
This is NO “jack Chick” article or whatever his name is. I’m not familiar with this “Jack Chick” character.
More:
“Mary, Our Hope for Peace with the Muslim World”
(Mary, the Mother of God 2002: This homily was given on January 1, 2002 at St. Pius X Church, Westerly, R.I. by Fr. Raymond Suriani.
“Mary, Our Hope For Peace With The Muslim World.”
The following is taken from a recent issue of First Things, which is a journal edited by Fr. Richard Neuhaus:
“After September 11 many American pundits and editorialists asked, Why do they [i.e., certain Muslims] hate us so? One after another, they answered that they hate us because ‘America is free, rich, powerful, and good.’ There is something in that, but for the most part it is smug self-delusion. They hate us because they believe that the West, now indisputably led by America, has marginalized, exploited, and oppressed them for centuries. They hate us for the cultural decadence that we export and that many of them hate themselves for enjoying. They hate us because we have troops on their sacred soil, and they hate us because we support what they view as the alien State of Israel on their land. Intertwined with all the reasons they hate us, they hate us because we are the infidel who has for years beyond numbering in ways beyond numbering humiliated the chosen people of God
http://www.cfpeople.org/FrRay/Mary2002a.htm
Muslims have a deep regard for the Blessed Mother? She’s mentioned over 30 times in the Koran. No other woman is mentioned even once! There she’s described as “Virgin, ever Virgin.” Imagine, the very doctrine certain liberal Christians reject—the perpetual virginity of Mary—is accepted by Muslims!
Concerning his daughter Fatima, Mohammad—the founder of Islam—said this: “She has the highest place in heaven after the Virgin Mary.”
Mary Worship?
A Study of Catholic Practice and Doctrine
Mary Ann Collins
(A Former Catholic Nun)
June 2001
Revised January 2006
INTRODUCTION
Jesus said that the truth will set us free. (John 8:32) However, He did not say that the truth would necessarily be easy to accept. It was painful for me to learn the information that I am about to share with you, but it was also liberating and it led to a closer relationship with God.
As a faithful Catholic, and later as a nun, I was devoted to Mary. The prayers and practices were so familiar. They were taught to me by sincere people. I prayed the rosary, including rosary novenas. I wore a Brown Scapular and a Miraculous Medal. (You can read about these things in the Glossary, which is Appendix C.) I visited shrines that honor Mary. I had beautiful statues of Mary. I attended special services where we prayed to Mary and recited a litany of titles honoring her. I read books about apparitions of Mary, and dreamed of visiting Lourdes and Fatima. I participated in processions honoring Mary. A statue of Mary was put on a platform that was decorated with flowers. There were poles on the platform, so that men could carry it. The men walked through the streets, carrying the statue on the platform. We walked behind the statue, singing songs in Mary’s honor.
Was this worship? At the time, that question never occurred to me. Now, looking back on what I did, I believe that it was.
If modern Catholic teachings and doctrines about Mary are true, then they will not be contrary to Scripture, the writings of the Early Fathers, or the decrees of past popes. For a devout Catholic to question these issues and put them to the test can be painful. It certainly was for me. However, it would be far more painful to have God correct us when we face Him on Judgment Day.
...
Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.” (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said: “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.” (Note 11)
http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html
Fátima to become interfaith shrine!
Delegates attending the Vatican and United Nations (UN) inspired annual interfaith congress “The Future of God”, held during October in Fátima, heard how the Shrine is to be developed into a centre where all the religions of the world will gather to pay homage to their various gods. The Congress was held in the Paul VI Pastoral Centre and presided over by the Cardinal Patriarch of Lisbon José de Cruz Policarpo.
The Shrine’s rector, Monsignor Luciano Guerra, told the Congress that Fátima “will change for the better.” Addressing Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Orthodox, Buddhist and African Pagan representatives he stated: “The future of Fátima, or the adoration of God and His mother at this holy Shrine, must pass through the creation of a shrine where different religions can mingle. The inter-religious dialogue in Portugal, and in the Catholic Church, is still in an embryonic phase, but the Shrine of Fátima is not indifferent to this fact and is already open to being a universalistic place of vocation.”
http://www.dailycatholic.org/no110803.htm
The Mother Of All Religions?
Commentary by Roger Oakland
The article was titled Fatima to become interfaith shrine. I found the first paragraph rather astonishing. Read carefully every word that is stated:
Delegates attending the Vatican and United Nations (UN) inspired annual interfaith congress “The Future of God”, held during October in Fatima , heard how the Shrine is to be developed into a center where all the religions of the world will gather to pay homage to their various gods. The Congress was held in the Paul VI Pastoral Center and presided over by the Cardinal Patriarch of Lisbon José de Cruz Policarpo. [1]
...
Somehow, I have a strong suspicion that the statements made at the Fatima Interfaith Congress are prophetic in nature, and will never be retracted by the Pope or any other Vatican official. We are already headed well down the road to a one world religion in the name of Christ. The Fatima Interfaith Shrine endorsed by the Catholic Church is just one more sign.
One final question: Will the statements made at the “Future of God” Congress held in Fatima , Portugal in October of 2003 be fulfilled? From a biblical perspective, the answer is, yes. We are living in the very period of time the Bible reveals would occur before the return of Jesus Christ.
It’s one more sign of apostasy involving the Catholic church and Muslims. I don’t see it as my role to educate Catholics on what they ALREADY KNOW but don’t want to admit. The fact they don’t want to ADMIT it, also says something ... and it’s not positive.
Fatima is Mohammad's spiritually wayward daughter and Muslims also worship Mary. Catholics and Muslims have much in common. You may want to calm down "ArrogantBustard" or whatever his name is and point out that Bible based Christians don't buy into this garbage. The arrogant and ignorant name calling on behalf of this "ArroganBustard" are NOT appreciated. His accusatory and nasty tone to me are what he tries to accuse ME OF. True hypocrisy at work on behalf of "ArrogantBustard". The hope of Christians is in CHRIST. Not Mary. Not Fatima. Hope is in Christ - He alone died for our sins - not Mary - not Fatima or any other sinner - CHRIST PAID OUR SIN DEBT. If I was petty, I'd expect an apology from this "ArrogantBustard" but I also know even if one was forced it would NOT be sincere. Belief and hope will continue to be placed with a false prophetess, Fatima etc.. How sad.
Catholic leaders are using the common ground of praying TO Mary and worshiping Fatima, the spiritually wayward daughter of Mohammad to bring about “peace and understanding”.
It’s not my fault if you are Catholic and don’t know this.
It’s just another “sign of the times” ... .
As a Bible based Christian, I want NO part of Mary or Fatima worship!
Muslims named the village Fatima when they conquered Portugal. Catholics didn't name the town Fatima.
Mary (Our Lady of Fatima) miraculously appeared to three children at Fatima in 1917. Catholics ask Mary, the mother of Jesus, the mother of God, to pray for us.
So why did God choose Fatima for this miracle? The following is Bishop Sheen's hypothesis.
It is our firm belief that the fears some entertain concerning the Moslems are not to be realized, but that Moslemism, instead, will eventually be converted to Christianity, and in a way that even some of our missionaries never suspect.It is our belief that this will happen not through the direct teaching of Christianity, but through a summoning of the Moslems to a veneration of the Mother of God.
This is the line of argument:
The Koran, which is the bible of the Moslems, has many passages concerning the Blessed Virgin. First, the Koran believes in her Immaculate Conception and in her Virgin Birth. The third chapter of the Koran places the history of Mary’s family in a genealogy that goes back through Abraham, Noah, and Adam. When one compares the Koran’s description of the birth of Mary with the apocryphal Gospel of the birth of Mary, one is tempted to believe that Mohammed very much depended upon the latter.
Both books describe the old age and the definite sterility of Anne, the mother of Mary. When, however, Anne conceives, the mother of Mary is made to say in the Koran: “O Lord, I vow and I consecrate to you what is already within me. Accept it from me.” When Mary is born, her mother, Anne, says: “And I consecrate her with all of her posterity under thy protection, O Lord, against Satan!”
The Koran has also verses on the Annunciation, Visitation, and Nativity. Angels are pictured as accompanying the Blessed Mother and saying, “O Mary, God has chosen you and purified you, and elected you above all the women of the earth.”
In the nineteenth chapter of the Koran, there are forty-one verses on Jesus and Mary. There is such a strong defense of the virginity of Mary here that the Koran, in the fourth book, attributes the condemnation of the Jews to their monstrous calumny against the Virgin Mary.
Mary, then, is for the Moslems the true Sayyida, or Lady. The only possible serious rival to her in their creed would be Fatima, the daughter of Mohammed himself. However, after the death of Fatima, Mohammed wrote: “Thou shalt be the most blessed of all the women in Paradise, after Mary.” In a variant of the text, Fatima is made to say, “I surpass all the women, except Mary.”
This brings us to our second point, namely, why the Blessed Mother, in this twentieth century (1950), should have revealed herself in the insignificant little village of Fatima, so that to all future generations she would be known as “Our Lady of Fatima.”
Nothing ever happens out of Heaven except with a finesse of all details.
I believe that the Blessed Virgin chose to be known as “Our Lady of Fatima” as a pledge and a sign of hope to the Moslem people, and as an assurance that they, who show her so much respect, will one day accept her Divine Son, too.
Evidence to support these views is found in the historical fact that the Moslems occupied Portugal for centuries. At the time when they were finally driven out, the last Moslem chief had a beautiful daughter by the name of Fatima. A Catholic boy fell in love with her, and for him she not only stayed behind when the Moslems left, but even embraced the Catholic faith. The young husband was so much in love with her that he changed the name of the town where he lived to Fatima. Thus, the very place where Our Lady appeared in 1917 bears a historical connection to Fatima, the daughter of Mohammed.
The final evidence of the relationship of Fatima to the Moslems is theenthusiastic reception that the Moslems in Africa and India and elsewhere gave to the Pilgrim statue of Our Lady of Fatima. Moslems attended the Catholic services in honor of Our Lady; they allowed religious processions and even prayers before their mosques; and in Mozambique the Moslems, who were unconverted, began to be Christian as soon as the statue of Our Lady of Fatima was erected.
Missionaries in the future will increasingly see that their apostolate among the Moslems will be successful in the measure that they preach Our Lady of Fatima. Because the Moslems have a devotion to Mary, our missionaries should be satisfied merely to expand and to develop that devotion with the full realization that Our Blessed Lady will carry the Moslems the rest of the way to her Divine Son.
As those who lose devotion to Mary lose belief in the Divinity of Christ, so those who intensify devotion to her gradually acquire that belief.
Christ’s admonition to “Love thy enemy.”, did NOT include capitulation and endorsement of their errors.
I have to disagree...
Muzlims don't know the difference between God and Satan...Their god resides in a black moon rock in Mecca...Their god hates Jews...
You say they mis-understand God...I say they don't know God...
I realize you folks don't believe in the Great Tribulation, but when their god shows up to sit on the throne during the Tribulation, they will fall down and worship him...And the muzlims are expecting him to show up, soon...
When God (Jesus) does show up again, the muzlims will reject Him just as they do now...
Our God of Abraham is not their god of Abraham...They're not going to like our God very much when they meet Him...
That's worth repeating...In bold...
This is false.
To obstinately continue in telling a lie after the truth has been explained to you is to commit the sin of bearing false witness, a sin which is vigorously condemned in the Bible.
Also, to help prevent flame wars, please post the entire sentence when claiming that it is false - emphasing the phrases you claim are false whether separate or in combination. For instance:
As the moderator stated, don’t get personal.
It’s not my fault that this united the spiritually wayward Fatima with Muslims is how the Catholic church is trying to bridge peace with Muslims.
Islam and the Message of Fatima
by Matt Abbott
So just what is the connection between Our Lady of Fatima and Islam? Francis Johnston, in his book, Fatima: The Great Sign, gives a cogent explanation: “The Muslims, who have a certain devotion to Our Lady and recognize her Virgin Birth and Immaculate Conception, were intrigued by the fact that Mary had appeared at Fatima, which was the name of Mohammed’s favorite daughter and regarded by the prophet as the highest woman in Heaven after our Lady. In Zanzibar, the Muslim sultan placed a wreath of flowers at the [Fatima]statue’s feet, while the Muslim chief of the Ismaeli tribe in Mozambique placed a golden necklace about the statue’s neck saying: ‘Thank you, Our Lady of Fatima for the work of love you are accomplishing in Africa’ “ (p. 126).
What faithful Catholic could doubt that Our Lady will play a central role in the conversion of Muslims to the one, true faith: the Catholic faith. It almost certainly will not happen overnight, and, sadly, it may even require much bloodshed. (Consider the Battle of Lepanto.) But it will take place, for we know that in the end, Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart will triumph - once and for all.
http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=712
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/OLISLAM.HTM ^ | September - October 2001 | Fr Ladis J. Cizik, Blue Army National Executive Director
Posted on 10/09/2001 8:21:36 PM PDT by Diago
OUR LADY AND ISLAM: HEAVEN’S PEACE PLAN
Fr Ladis J. Cizik, Blue Army National Executive Director
Islam Islam is an Arabic word that can be defined as “to make peace.” Islam is the religion founded by Mohammed, which considers the Koran as its holy book. In addition, Islam accepts the New Testament of the Christians and the Old Testament of the Jews as Divinely inspired works. Followers of Islam are known as Muslims (also: Moors, Turks, and Moslems) and, just as Jews and Christians, believe in only one God. Yet, over the centuries, Muslims have engaged in tremendous wars with Christians and Jews. It would seem that there is little hope for peace. However, Heaven’s Peace Plan, involving Our Lady, is evidenced at Fatima, Portugal as well as other places around the world.
Fatima
The Moors once occupied Portugal. The village of Fatima was given the Islamic name of the well-loved Princess of the nearby Castle of Ourem. She died at an early age after marrying the Count of Ourem and converting to Catholicism. Baptized with the Christian name of Oureana, she was named at birth “Fatima,” like many other Moslem girls, in honor of the daughter of Mohammed. Of his daughter, Fatima, the founder of Islam, Mohammed, said: “She has the highest place in heaven after the Virgin Mary.”
It is a fact that Moslems from various nations, especially from the Middle East, make so many pilgrimages to Our Lady of Fatima’s Shrine in Portugal that Portuguese officials have expressed concern. The combination of an Islamic name and Islamic devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is a great attraction to Moslems. God is writing straight with crooked lines, as we will see. Fatima is a part of Heaven’s Peace Plan. It is hope for the world.
The Koran
In the Koran, the holy name of the Blessed Virgin Mary is mentioned no less than thirty times. No other woman’s name is even mentioned, not even that of Mohammed’s daughter, Fatima. Among men, only Abraham, Moses, and Noah are mentioned more times than Our Lady. In the Koran, Our Blessed Mother is described as “Virgin, ever Virgin.” The Islamic belief in the virginity of Mary puts to shame the heretical beliefs of those who call themselves Christian, while denying the perpetual virginity of Mary. Make no mistake about it, there is a very special relationship between the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Moslems!
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/OLISLAM.HTM
Yes, Muslims and Catholics share the worship of Mary and the false prophetess, Fatima. This is why the pope is “reaching out” to Muslims - they have this and more in common.
I don’t worship or pray to Mary or this false prophet Fatima. The Bible condemns worshiping anyone but God. For a Christian, this is wrong.
Catholics and Muslims both worship the false prophetess Fatima and Mary. Nothing false about that. Catholic leaders are using this as the original article stated to seek compatibility and “peace” .
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.