Posted on 09/22/2007 6:09:42 AM PDT by NYer
Liddell and Scott is not the only authority to point out that the Greek word βαπτίζω did not mean exclusively, dip, plunge, immerge. Scholars of various denominations point to two passages in the New Testament as indicating that the word was used of something much less than the total immersion of the person. Luke 11:38 recounts that, when Jesus ate at a Pharisee's house, "the Pharisee was astonished to see that he did not first wash (βαπτίζω - literally, "be baptized" or "baptize himself") before dinner." Those who point to this passage say that the Pharisee will not have expected Jesus to immerse himself fully before having a meal and that his surprise will have been at Jesus' omission of the customary ritual washing of the hands.
The other New Testament passage pointed to is Mark 7:3–4: "The Pharisees ... do not eat unless they wash (νίπτω, the ordinary word for washing) their hands thoroughly, observing the tradition of the elders; and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they wash themselves (literally, "baptize themselves" - βαπτίζω)".
Hey, everyone's a Greek Scholar these days...Just pick up one of the numerous Greek translations and 'quote' away...I don't know of Liddel and Scott but there are many who throw their two cents worth in...
Don't worry about the 'Greek'...Look at the context...
Mat 3:11 I indeed WASH you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall WASH you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mar 1:4 John did WASH in the wilderness, and preach the WASHING of repentance for the remission of sins.
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to WASH with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which WASH with the Holy Ghost.
Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be WASHED with the WASHING that I am WASHED with? They say unto him, We are able.
Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judea; and there he tarried with them, and WASHED.
Joh 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and WASHED more disciples than John,
Joh 4:2 (Though Jesus himself WASHED not, but his disciples,)
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be WASHED?
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he WASHED him.
Here's a good one...
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was WASHED, he and all his, straightway.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye WASHED? And they said, Unto John's WASHING.
Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be washed, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were WASHED into Jesus Christ were WASHED into his death?
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all WASHED into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are WASHED for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then WASHED for the dead?
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been WASHING into Christ have put on Christ.
All this washing makes me want to take a bath...And your proof text is:
Luke 11:38 recounts that, when Jesus ate at a Pharisee's house, "the Pharisee was astonished to see that he did not first wash (βαπτίζω - literally, "be baptized" or "baptize himself") before dinner."
You forgot to mention that another translation for your Greek word is to 'make fully wet' which is immersion in the water...
Jesus did not get his hands fully wet, or didn't use water at all...
The other New Testament passage pointed to is Mark 7:3–4: "The Pharisees ... do not eat unless they wash (νίπτω, the ordinary word for washing) their hands thoroughly, observing the tradition of the elders; and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they wash themselves (literally, "baptize themselves" - βαπτίζω)".
So when you take a bath after a day's work, you are baptizing yourself...
Like I said, look at the context...No one is washing themselves or getting washed to get clean...
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Nobody gets washed...In fact, here, nobody gets wet...Baptism is not wash...Baptism is not water...
Baptism in the English was a transliteration of Baptism in the Greek...You get the meaning from the context...Some were baptized into water...Others were baptized into Christ...
That's silly. I don't think anyone here claims baptism "means" water. The act of baptising does make "use" of water however, as illustrated in Scripture:
Not silly at all...Every single time some folks see Baptize, they see water...And every time they see water, they think Baptize...
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Now tell us you don't somehow see Baptize (or WASH) in that verse...There's no Baptism there but people somehow see it there...
They don't think baptize means "water" but they know that water is used in baptism, as did Philip and the eunuch.
And every time they see water, they think Baptize
That is still silly. When I take a drink of water I don't think of batpism.
Now tell us you don't somehow see Baptize (or WASH) in that verse
I don't see the word batpize or wash in that verse, but the phrase "born of water" can legitimately understood to be a reference to baptism as Philip and the eunuch understood baptism in the verses above.
The phrase “born of water” should have been “born of water and of the Spirit” in my post above.
And so to Him I confess.
through the indwelling Holy Spirit and His Word.
I can go for that I just don’t buy the illusion that we’re imperfect and the whole dualism thing.
What is your definition of perfect?
God
Yes, his Son was the only perfect human being however. Without Him in our lives, we can’t be perfect in the way God means it.
If that gets you to Him go for it.
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