Secret theological discussions with the SSPX in Rome?

RORATE CÆLI / Donec Ponam / Le Forum Catholique ^ | October 5, 2007 | New Catholic

[monkapotamus]

Secret theological discussions with the SSPX in Rome?

The Superior-General of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X (FSSPX/SSPX), Bishop Bernard Fellay, granted today an interview to registered readers of the French website Donec Ponam. When asked about the possible removal of the excommunications of the four bishops of the FSSPX by the Holy See, Fellay answered:

In my opinion, the Roman authorities have no grave reason to keep the excommunications. It is therefore a matter of political balance between the FSSPX, on one side, and, on the other, the Progressives with whom these authorities believe they must deal.

Meanwhile, a source at Le Forum Catholique brings the following report (startling, if confirmed):

Bishop Bernard Fellay has officially announced to the members of the FSSPX the establishment of a Theological Committee specialized in the study of Vatican II, which includes Fathers Patrick de La Rocque, Grégoire Célier, Thierry Gaudray, Alvaro Calderón, and Jean-Michel Gleize. This confirms the information coming from sources close to the FSSPX in Toulouse and to the Studium [the Dominican House of Studies in Toulouse] of the Dominican Fathers in that same city regarding long hours of doctrinal discussions which have taken place at a Roman University, in various occasions, between FSSPX theologians and Roman theologians, such as Cardinal Cottier - discussions which have covered the new Mass, ecumenism, and [episcopal] collegiality.

posted by New Catholic at 5:49 PM

[murphE]

What’s with “FSSPX”? For years, I’ve always seen exclusively SSPX. Given that FSSP is a non-schismatic, wholly authorized, truly Catholic group of Latin-Mass-devoted priests, which seems bound to explode in popularity given Benedict’s MP, it seems suspicious that maybe SSPX is purposely trying to sow confusion be adopting the name making its name more similart to FSSP. Are they trying to make people think, “No, wait, I think FSSPX is the legitimate one!”

Oh brother. Your picture should be right next to the definition of "rash judgement" in a catechism. FSSPX, or La Fraternité Sacerdotale Saint Pie X is the name of the society. It has been the name of the society long before the FSSP existed despite you never having seen it. The English translation is abbreviated SSPX.

[livius]

ces discussions prouvent que le Vatican considère avec beaucoup de sérieux les critiques doctrinales de la FSSPX contre le Concile

That's interesting. I wonder if this is Rome's way of sidling into a serious examination of Vatican II.

[livius]

The USCCB intends to delay everything as much as possible - they’re fighting tooth and nail to keep the new (much more correct) translation from coming out.

[livius]

I think it’s easy to say that VatII was good and then the evil “spirit of Vatican II” came along and ruined it.

But one of the problems with the original documents is simply that they are very vague, wordy committee-products that were not even meant to be very rigorous from a doctrinal point of view. VatII was a pastoral council, and in fact as such I don’t even think it had the capacity to define doctrine.

However, there was enough room in the original documents to provide every person with the interpretation that suited him best. And with the breakdown in authority - which I do think had much to do with the concept of “collegiality” in VatII - people just felt free to read these tantalizingly vague remarks any way they wanted.

I don’t think the initial impulse of VatII was evil. But I think something that needs serious consideration is to what extent evil managed to insert itself, via concepts antithetical to established doctrine (although not necessarily confronting it directly and by name, so to speak), into the documents of VatII and the Novus Ordo. The “spirit of VatII” couldn’t have gotten away with all that it did if there had been no justification for it in the Council itself.

[B Knotts]

I didn’t say otherwise; my point, I guess, is that if the initial intention had been to interpret the vague Vatican II documents consistent with Holy Tradition and with previous councils, none of the nonesense would have happened.

The vagueness merely opened up an opportunity to a modernist impulse that had been previously bottled up.

[maryz]

I didn't quite know what to make of it -- how much credence to put in it. It's apparently an interpretation (by a partisan) of whatever "reality" underlies it. I would guess there's something there, but how accurate or, well, over-optimistic the interpretation is, I haven't a clue.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a clear (Dick-and-Jane level if necessary -- and it may be) statement from Rome defining what was intended by V II and what is over the line!

[livius]

I wouldn't mind a clear (Dick-and-Jane level if necessary -- and it may be) statement from Rome defining what was intended by V II and what is over the line!

I think that would be an excellent idea. Also, while people took advantage of the vagueness to create their own interpretations, they found enough force in these docuements to impose their interpretations as binding. So it should be asked to what extent this in itself was an erroneous excess of authority (perhaps an authority they didn't have), and to what extent they actually did discover in the documents some less-than-orthodox statements that they could then use to support their authority.

I don't think VatII will ever be declared a heretical council, but I think there are things in it that definitely merit close examination and possibly could be rejected on an individual basis as heretical or at any rate leading to heretical conclusions. This is particularly true in the case of things relating to the structure and nature of the Church.

And this is without even getting into the destruction of the Mass and the radical change in the concept of the Eucharist that came out of VatII.

[Patriotic1]

I want to be in that river of souls that leads to God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Wow - that inspires a lot of thought. I am attending my first TLM tonight.

[saradippity]

When I go to mass I want to feel the presence of the millions upon millions of souls who have participated in The Sacrifice down through the ages. I don't want some newfangled clean break. I want to be in that river of souls that leads to God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Your statement is one of the most simple,beautiful and true expressions that describe the immense value and awe inspiring effect of the Faith as preserved in the Mass. It also meshes the world we live in with the supernatural world that we live in,although too often,unaware. Thank you.

[rmichaelj]

The TLM can be overwhelming at first. It is such an experience that you can feel a bit self-conscious at first. My Advice-get a good Missal (if you haven’t already). Angelus press prints probably the best lay Missal. They are an SSPX publisher, but most FSSP priests agree that their missal is the best for day to day use.

[maryz]

The vagueness merely opened up an opportunity to a modernist impulse

I remember reading something about V II years ago that said the "reformers" had their agenda set and ready to push through while most of the bishops were "still finding their seats and getting used to the Latin." I wish I could remember where I read it -- it would certainly explain the maneuvering room that made it into the documents.

[Maximilian]

When I go to mass I want to feel the presence of the millions upon millions of souls who have participated in The Sacrifice down through the ages. I don’t want some newfangled clean break. I want to be in that river of souls that leads to God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Please let me add my thanks to those who have commented on your brief yet beautiful description of why the usus antiquior is so infinitely superior to the novus ordo.

[Maximilian]

My Advice-get a good Missal (if you haven’t already). Angelus press prints probably the best lay Missal. They are an SSPX publisher, but most FSSP priests agree that their missal is the best for day to day use.

The priest who offers our local indult Mass uses the Angelus Press missal.

Many of the other missals printed just prior to Vatican II which you can pick up on Ebay use the Confraternity translation for the English version of the readings and prayers. The Confraternity translation is both pedestrian and less accurate.

[Maximilian]

I remember reading something about V II years ago that said the "reformers" had their agenda set and ready to push through while most of the bishops were "still finding their seats and getting used to the Latin."

This is a very accurate description. I have a book published in 1969 called "Keeping One's Balance in the New Church" that says almost those very words. It was published by a mainstream US Catholic publisher to try to explain to bewildered Catholics why their Church was experiencing what Paul VI called an "auto-demolition."

The Dutch bishops in particular had a revolutionary plan in place before the first day, and they were then able to execute it. The US bishops were the ones trying to understand the Latin. Most of them were virtually illiterate in Latin, and I remember reading about one that just gave up and went home.

[maryz]

Seems the Dutch are still at it! ;-)

[irishjuggler]

The priest who offers our local indult Mass uses the Angelus Press missal.

Not to nitpick, but the term "indult" became obsolete on September 14. There are no more "indult" Masses, as the Pope abolished the need for indults.

[monkapotamus]

"The TLM can be overwhelming at first. It is such an experience that you can feel a bit self-conscious at first. My Advice-get a good Missal (if you haven’t already). Angelus press prints probably the best lay Missal. They are an SSPX publisher, but most FSSP priests agree that their missal is the best for day to day use."

While looking for confirmation of the above news, I found a .pdf pamphlet for following the mass at the Dici site.

"For the new faithful who wish to attend the Tridentine Mass, DICI presents this very practical edition. You only have to print the pages of the pdf file, and fold them into to obtain a pamphlet. On the left page, you have the Latin text, on the right page, the English translation.

This pamphlet provides only the ordinary of the Mass, and is not meant to replace a complete missal, but it can prove useful as an introduction to the traditional liturgy. Download the pdf file"

[Maximilian]

Seems the Dutch are still at it! ;-)

These days the church in Holland has nearly ceased to exist, but you are correct that the Dutch bishops didn't stop with their revolutionary plan for subverting Vatican II. Among other things, a short time after Vatican II they released the "Dutch Catechism." This was a neutron bomb of a book, destroying the faith of countless millions of former Catholics.

The 1969 book I mentioned previously, "Keeping your Balance in the New Church," is a very middle-of-the-road presentation of the crisis in the Church at that time. But the "Dutch Catechism" was too much even for that moderate priest-author. He devotes a whole chapter to excoriating the "Dutch Catechism" as pure unadulterated heresy. Even going beyond heresy, its tended towards agnosticsm regarding the entire content of the faith such as the virgin birth and divinity of Christ.

[murphE]

regarding long hours of doctrinal discussions which have taken place at a Roman University, in various occasions, between FSSPX theologians and Roman theologians

It is interesting that Bishop Williamson has signed his most recent communication from Albano, Italy, no?

[Ransomed]

“Communists and homosexual infiltrators nearly destroyed her with the classic method of defeating a free society —using her freedoms against her.”

The hierarchy let us twist for decades. Generations of Catholics who don’t know what’s what. Catholics in some areas have no idea what the Faith stands for, ‘cause they weren’t taught. The most damning part, in my opinion, is that lots of Catholics never had a chance to really know the Church as it is, but only as it was(n’t) shown to them.

Freegards