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Elizabeth: The Golden Age (2007)
National Catholic Register ^ | Steven Gredanus

Posted on 10/13/2007 7:53:43 AM PDT by Frank Sheed

Elizabeth: The Golden Age (2007)

Directed by Shekhar Kapur. Cate Blanchett, Geoffrey Rush, Clive Owen, Abbie Cornish, Samantha Morton, Jordi Mollà.

From a National Catholic Register review

By Steven D. Greydanus

A lurid sort of Christopher Hitchens vision of history pervades Elizabeth: The Golden Age, Shekhar Kapur’s sequel to his 1998 art-house hit Elizabeth.

The earlier film, which made a star of Cate Blanchett as the eponymous Virgin Queen, celebrated the triumph of bright, happy Elizabethan Protestantism over the dark, unwholesome Catholic world of Bloody Mary. Even so, that film’s church-bashing was tame compared that of this sequel, in which everything bad, evil and corrupt in the world ultimately is ultimately the bitter fruit of Religion. And by Religion, I mean Catholicism.

Yes, technically Protestantism might be a form of religious devotion too. But The Golden Age carefully expunges anything like actual belief or religiosity from its minimal portrayal of the faith affiliation of its heroine. Elizabeth might kneel in a brightly lit church in decorously silent, solitary prayer, but it’s Catholics who pray out loud, usually in spooky Latin, read from prayer books and clutch rosary beads, surround themselves with ominous berobed clerics bestowing church sanction on all manner of sinister goings-on, and worst of all, have religious ideas and motivations.

If someone says something like “God has spoken to me,” it’s a sure bet that (a) the speaker is a Catholic, and (b) whatever God had to say spells trouble for non-Catholics. Ditto any reference to “true believers,” “God’s work,” “legions of Christ,” you name it. In this world, God-talk is troubling Catholic behavior; Protestants don’t talk to, or about, God. Their religion is little more than a slogan for conscience, religious freedom, and of course heroic resistance to Catholic oppression.

“I will not punish my people for their beliefs — only for their deeds,” says Elizabeth, conveniently forgetting that in the last movie she rammed the Act of Uniformity through Parliament, outlawing the Catholic Mass and imposing compulsory attendance at Anglican services. In this version of history, the hosts of Catholics martyred under Elizabeth are all traitors and conspirators. “Every Catholic in England is a potential assassin,” Elizabeth’s advisors helpfully remind her in an early scene. Well, then, every Catholic in England is a potential political prisoner too.

Historically, the film is very loosely tethered to events from the 1580s, notably the execution of Mary Stuart (wasted Samantha Morton) and the defeat of the Spanish Armada of Philip II of Spain (Jordi Mollà). Opening titles inform us that Philip (a “devout Catholic,” in case you were wondering) has “plunged Europe into holy war,” and “only England stands against him.” Whom this holy war is being waged against, if “only England stands against him,” is not specified. Presumably the reference is to resistance to Turkish encroachment in the Mediterranean, but far be it from The Golden Age to muddy the waters of Catholic warmongering by mentioning Muslim expansion.

In attacking England, Philip is convinced that he’s on a mission from God: “England is enslaved to the devil,” he declares. “We must set her free.” Certain that God is on his side as he leads his nation into a holy war that becomes a debacle, Philip couldn’t be a blacker, nuttier Hollywood villain if his middle initial were W. Other flirtations with topicality in this pre-election year include assassins and conspirators praying secretly in a foreign language while plotting their murderous attacks, and the Machiavellian Sir Francis Walsingham (returning Geoffrey Rush) torturing a captured conspirator during an interrogation. (Tom Hollander, who costarred with Rush in the Pirates of the Caribbean sequels, is running around somewhere in this picture, an odd juxtaposition in another film that ends with a sea battle with cannons.)

The film does go on to concede that the Spanish have other grievances against the English besides religion, such as the Queen’s tolerant stance on English pirates like Walter Raleigh (Clive Owen) raiding Spanish ships. But it’s all a big circle: The raids are rationalized on the grounds that Philip is Elizabeth’s enemy, and the more gold English privateers seize from Spanish vessels, the less Philip has to wage war on England. That the raids give Philip more justification for going to war hardly matters, since we already know that he’s on a mission from God.

The romanticized Hollywood view of heroic English piracy against the galleons of Catholic Spain in old Errol Flynn–type movies like The Sea Hawk has always rubbed me the wrong way, and it hasn’t gotten any better with the passing of time. Or the substitution of Owen for Flynn.

The film’s romantic intrigues are if possible duller than its religio-political ones, though here at least the actors are able — occasionally — to rise above their material. Not always; in some scenes even Blanchett seems absurdly lost amid the puerility of her character’s romantic woes.

The original Elizabeth imagined the young queen carrying on a flagrant affair with Robert Dudley, the Earl of Leicester (Joseph Fiennes), but ended with its protagonist reinventing herself as a kind of Protestant Madonna figure, an iconic “Virgin Queen” (or at least “Like A Virgin” Queen, to borrow a phrase from another self-reinventing Madonna).

In this film, Elizabeth maintains her celibate image, her singleness given a feminist gloss in a closing monologue: “Unmarried, I have no master; childless, I am mother to my people. God give me strength to bear this mighty freedom.” The freedom of the single career woman!

As in the earlier film, the queen holds herself aloof from the constant pressure to marry and produce an heir, though there is no shortage of unsuitable suitors. There are more sparks with Raleigh, though he is more drawn to dewy young Bess (Abbie Cornish), a favored lady-in-waiting on whom the queen in turn dotes tenderly enough to suggest that the triangle goes all the way around. (There were also hints of something between Elizabeth and a lady-in-waiting in the original film.)

Elizabeth’s wonder at Raleigh’s rhapsodic account of his arrival in the New World is about as close to a positive religious experience as The Golden Age can muster. The ocean, Elizabeth muses, is a very “image of eternity,” and she wonders, “Do we discover the new world, or does the new world discover us?”

When it comes to literal religiosity, though, The Golden Age’s sensibilities are wholly unsympathetic. The climax, a weakly staged destruction of the Spanish Armada, is a crescendo of church-bashing imagery: rosaries floating amid burning flotsam, inverted crucifixes sinking to the bottom of the ocean, the rows of ominous berobed clerics slinking away in defeat.

Pound for pound, minute for minute, Elizabeth: The Golden Age could possibly contain more sustained church-bashing than any other film I can think of. Certainly the premise of The Da Vinci Code was far more objectionable, and The Magdalene Sisters was more absolute in its moral color-coding. (The torture of a young Catholic conspirator, even though guilty, represents a shade of grey that The Magdalene Sisters’s black-and-white approach would never have permitted.)

But in The Da Vinci Code the heavies were a secret cabal within the Church, not the visible hierarchy and all Catholics everywhere. An albino monk assassin is one thing (Opus Dei not being available in the sixteenth century, this film’s priest-assassin is supplied by the Jesuits). Here, “every Catholic in England” is at least potentially an assassin. The Magdalene Sisters may have been agitprop, but it highlighted genuine abuses within a Catholic institution, rather than depicting the Church and the Catholic faith as a force for evil and celebrating resistance to Catholicism as heroic humanism.

How is it possible that this orgy of anti-Catholicism has been all but ignored by most critics? As with The Da Vinci Code, early reviews of The Golden Age seem to be roundly dismissive, while sticking to safe, noncommittal charges of general lameness.[*]

If the object of the film’s vitriol were any group outside Christendom — say, if praying in Arabic were the sure sign of dangerous fanaticism, and if a Muslim prince were making holy war on Christendom with the blessings of all the eminent imams — would there be any shortage of critical objections to such stereotyping? As a lover of film criticism as well as film, I find the reviews more depressing than the film.


* Note: One of the few reviews in a major outlet that doesn’t ignore the film’s anti-Catholicism ran in my local New York area paper, the Newark Star-Ledger. Critic Stephen Whitty writes that the film “equates Catholicism with some sort of horror-movie cult, with scary close-ups of chanting monks and glinting crucifixes. There’s even a murderous Jesuit, played by Rhys Ifans like a Hammer-movie bad guy, or a second cousin to poor pale Silas from The Da Vinci Code.”

A sexual encounter (nothing explicit); brief rear female nudity; some crude language; a couple of gory torture/mutilation scenes and non-explicit execution/killings.



TOPICS: Catholic; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: anglosphere; anglosphererules; anticatholicism; antimoronism; antispaniardism; cinema; elizabeth; goldenage; moviereview; movies
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Same old same old...
1 posted on 10/13/2007 7:53:44 AM PDT by Frank Sheed
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To: Frank Sheed; Lil'freeper

Somehow I am not surprised.


2 posted on 10/13/2007 7:56:02 AM PDT by big'ol_freeper ("Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~ Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Pyro7480; monkapotamus; ELS; Theophane; indult; B Knotts; livius; k omalley; Cavalcabo; sneakers; ..
the film “equates Catholicism with some sort of horror-movie cult, with scary close-ups of chanting monks and glinting crucifixes. There’s even a murderous Jesuit, played by Rhys Ifans like a Hammer-movie bad guy, or a second cousin to poor pale Silas from The Da Vinci Code.”

Just my cup of tea!

Papist-Romanist Franis Xavier Sheed

3 posted on 10/13/2007 7:56:07 AM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: Frank Sheed
Um this is describing how the Elizabethans saw Catholics. I think Catholics are reading to much into this. If you made a movie about Mary, Queen of Scots, you all would doubtlessly picture English Protestants as a murderous bunch of fanatic proto Fascists. After all, they pretty much where that to English Catholics.

It a movie. An act of fiction. You have to have villains. From Elizabeth’s standpoint, the villains were Catholics.

4 posted on 10/13/2007 8:13:35 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Yo Democrats : Don't tell us how to fight the war, we will not tell you how to be the village idiots)
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To: Frank Sheed
Well, from the point of view of Church of England in the 1580’s, this movie’s depiction of Catholics is not exaggerated. People on both sides really did talk as if the other side was in league with the devil.

Someone should make a movie about the Spanish trying to conquer England and The Netherlands whilst suppressing Protestants from the Spanish side.

5 posted on 10/13/2007 8:16:09 AM PDT by jimtorr
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To: MNJohnnie
As I recall, Elizabeth tried to restrain the Protestant Parliament from it’s worst excesses against Catholics. She didn’t force thru the Act of Suppression, Parliament demanded it.

Let’s not forget that it was during her reign that the French tried to kill all the Huguenots (what French Protestants were called) in France. Thousands were murdered in Paris, without warning, in one night.

There was more than enough savagery between Protestants and Catholics to go around during that time.

6 posted on 10/13/2007 8:24:05 AM PDT by jimtorr
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To: Frank Sheed

The first movie had Jesuit assassins did it not?

But I’m not surprised an Indian filmmaker might not treat Christianity evenly.

Shame there are not more truly Christian filmmakers today.

It has been the province of non-Christians and non-believers for almost two generations now.

See the new Vanity Fair “list”

But...the old Jews from the 30s, 40s and 50s played pretty sympathetic to Christendom and America for that matter

it’s all gone now....it’s about destroying culture rather than celebrating it


7 posted on 10/13/2007 8:26:15 AM PDT by wardaddy (Behind the lines in Vichy Nashville)
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To: jimtorr

“There was more than enough savagery between Protestants and Catholics to go around during that time.”

Yes, context is everything. The Catholic church had problems of its own, not least of which was an accellerating loss of its monopoly on knowledge - thanks to Gutenberg’s invention. The Inquisition (no one expects the Spanish Inquisition!) was largely a product of the power struggles of the time.

That said, it was a great movie - we saw it last night. The reviewer just has a burr under his saddle.


8 posted on 10/13/2007 9:08:46 AM PDT by Noumenon ("A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Reagan)
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To: Frank Sheed
Image and video hosting by TinyPic
I enjoyed both the original and this sequal but I'm not Catholic so maybe it didn't offend me like it would them.
9 posted on 10/13/2007 9:49:08 AM PDT by Old Seadog (Inside every old person is a young person saying "WTF happened?".)
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To: Frank Sheed
Opening titles inform us that Philip (a “devout Catholic,” in case you were wondering) has “plunged Europe into holy war,” and “only England stands against him.” Whom this holy war is being waged against, if “only England stands against him,” is not specified. Presumably the reference is to resistance to Turkish encroachment in the Mediterranean, but far be it from The Golden Age to muddy the waters of Catholic warmongering by mentioning Muslim expansion.

Too bad the writer has so little knowledge of European history. They should have found someone with more familiarity with the era to write the story.

For others that share Mr. Gredanus' ignorance, I'll fill in the blanks.

The reference is obviously to the 80 years war, touched off when Phillip tried to suppress the Calvinists in what is now Belgium and Holland.

Bloodthirsty Catholic soldiers killed about 10,000 civilians in Antwerp alone.

10 posted on 10/13/2007 10:19:06 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: Noumenon
The Catholic church had problems of its own, not least of which was an accellerating loss of its monopoly on knowledge - thanks to Gutenberg’s invention.

Your knowledge of history is as impressive as your spelling of "accelerating."
11 posted on 10/13/2007 10:27:35 AM PDT by irishjuggler
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To: Noumenon
That said, it was a great movie - we saw it last night. The reviewer just has a burr under his saddle.

Thanks! May go see it then.

12 posted on 10/13/2007 10:47:24 AM PDT by sionnsar (trad-anglican.faithweb.com |Iran Azadi| 5yst3m 0wn3d - it's N0t Y0ur5 (SONY) | UN: Useless Nations)
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To: sionnsar; NYer; AnAmericanMother; Tax-chick; trisham; netmilsmom

Thanks, but I’ll wait to see a TRUE story and one that is an Award Winner as well—Bella. It won the Toronto Film Festival.

http://www.bellathemovie.com/


13 posted on 10/13/2007 11:36:28 AM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: Frank Sheed

The site requires Flash. Is there a review somewhere?


14 posted on 10/13/2007 11:41:11 AM PDT by sionnsar (trad-anglican.faithweb.com |Iran Azadi| 5yst3m 0wn3d - it's N0t Y0ur5 (SONY) | UN: Useless Nations)
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To: sionnsar

http://www.bellathemovie.com/downloads/Smithsonian.pdf

Winner of the Toronto Film Festival, 2006 (5000 entries; the People’s Choice Winner).


15 posted on 10/13/2007 11:54:39 AM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: sionnsar

http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1809423607/details


16 posted on 10/13/2007 12:01:29 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: irishjuggler

So aside from my spelling, what’s not true about that statement? What do you suppose the Renaissance was all about?


17 posted on 10/13/2007 1:33:28 PM PDT by Noumenon ("A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Reagan)
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To: Frank Sheed; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...
Well, well, well ..... Satan is alive and well and thriving in Hollywood. First the Golden Compass and now this. Here is Bill Donohue, President of the Catholic League, on the topic of this film.


October 12, 2007

Same Old Bigotry in "Elizabeth: The Golden Age"

“Elizabeth: The Golden Age,” a new film about Queen Elizabeth opens today in theaters. There is nothing new, however, about the way British Catholics are depicted compared to their Protestant counterparts.

According to the New York Times, the portrayal of the “Catholic-led holy war” waged by Spain’s King Philip II against Elizabeth, “with its ominous monks and Latin chants, reeks of ‘The Da Vinci Code.’”  And the National Catholic Register's  critic reports that the flick shows that “everything bad, evil and corrupt in the world ultimately is the bitter fruit of…Catholicism.” In contrast, Protestantism represents “conscience, religious freedom, and of course heroic resistance to Catholic oppression.”

Such bigotry against Catholicism is rather old-fashioned. The notion that Catholics are conspiratorial, socially backward and not to be trusted by their enlightened, Protestant neighbors was abandoned long ago by many across the pond. It is far from dead, however. Even now, in the twenty-first century, neither a Catholic nor anyone married to a Catholic may hold the throne in the United Kingdom. This is one of the lingering effects of Elizabeth’s reign.


The only film I plan to see this year is Bella . This Christmas season, I plan to rent or buy any one of the following films for home viewing. Microwave some popcorn, pour a drink, sit back with the bassets and truly enjoy a good movie.

The Fifty Best Catholic Movies of All Time .

18 posted on 10/13/2007 2:57:09 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Frank Sheed; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...
Well, well, well ..... Satan is alive and well and thriving in Hollywood. First the Golden Compass and now this. Here is Bill Donohue, President of the Catholic League, on the topic of this film.


October 12, 2007

Same Old Bigotry in "Elizabeth: The Golden Age"

“Elizabeth: The Golden Age,” a new film about Queen Elizabeth opens today in theaters. There is nothing new, however, about the way British Catholics are depicted compared to their Protestant counterparts.

According to the New York Times, the portrayal of the “Catholic-led holy war” waged by Spain’s King Philip II against Elizabeth, “with its ominous monks and Latin chants, reeks of ‘The Da Vinci Code.’”  And the National Catholic Register's  critic reports that the flick shows that “everything bad, evil and corrupt in the world ultimately is the bitter fruit of…Catholicism.” In contrast, Protestantism represents “conscience, religious freedom, and of course heroic resistance to Catholic oppression.”

Such bigotry against Catholicism is rather old-fashioned. The notion that Catholics are conspiratorial, socially backward and not to be trusted by their enlightened, Protestant neighbors was abandoned long ago by many across the pond. It is far from dead, however. Even now, in the twenty-first century, neither a Catholic nor anyone married to a Catholic may hold the throne in the United Kingdom. This is one of the lingering effects of Elizabeth’s reign.


The only film I plan to see this year is Bella . This Christmas season, I plan to rent or buy any one of the following films for home viewing. Microwave some popcorn, pour a drink, sit back with the bassets and truly enjoy a good movie.

The Fifty Best Catholic Movies of All Time .

19 posted on 10/13/2007 2:58:14 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: jimtorr; MNJohnnie
As I recall, Elizabeth tried to restrain the Protestant Parliament from it’s worst excesses against Catholics. She didn’t force thru the Act of Suppression, Parliament demanded it.

Elizabeth (reinged 1558-1603) executed fewer Catholics in her 45 years on the throne than the Catholic Mary I (reigned 1553-1558) executed Protestants during her brief 5 years. Mary was so ruthless in burning large numbers of Protestants at the stake that the English turned against her, making it a certainty that a Protestent would follow her on the throne.

Movies are not a good way to learn about history. They are not documentaries. Their value is in giving the viewer a dramatic experience. They should be judged on artistic merit.

20 posted on 10/13/2007 3:06:50 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: Frank Sheed

I’m looking forward to this, myself.


21 posted on 10/13/2007 3:07:18 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("Is there any extra food around here anywhere?")
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To: Frank Sheed

“Bella,” I mean. I just don’t care for Cate Blanchett, no matter what she’s in . We saw “Elizabeth,” and all I really liked was the costumes (although I was early Anglo-Norman, myself, I can appreciate Tudor styles for their technology).

I’ve found Steven Greydanus’s reviews very helpful for the past several years.


22 posted on 10/13/2007 3:09:23 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("Is there any extra food around here anywhere?")
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To: Frank Sheed
I’ll wait to see a TRUE story and one that is an Award Winner as well—Bella.

And why do we want to see this? The trailer made it look confusing and unpleasant. Confusing and unpleasant I can get in real life without having to pay $10 a ticket.

23 posted on 10/13/2007 3:12:06 PM PDT by Fairview ( Everybody is somebody else's weirdo.)
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To: Tax-chick

I liked the first one, but the history wasn’t great. I just try to ignore the rampant Anti-Catholicism of the movie. I’ll do that for a good historical epic.


24 posted on 10/13/2007 4:06:45 PM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: Frank Sheed

Oy. How disappointing. I’ve always been fascinated by that time in history. Too bad.


25 posted on 10/13/2007 4:20:23 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Noumenon
Where did the Renaissance take place? In priest-infested Italy? If the Catholic Church was stifling knowledge, how could the Renaissance happen in the most Catholic place in Europe? Most of what you think that you know about the "Inquisition" is pure myth and bigotry. Free YOUR mind.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/madden200406181026.asp
26 posted on 10/13/2007 5:10:05 PM PDT by irishjuggler
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To: Fairview; Tax-chick; trisham

>>>And why do we want to see this?<<<

BECAUSE....

“I like life! Life likes me!
Life and I fairly fully agree
Life is fine! Life is good!
‘Specially mine which is just as it should be!
I like pouring the wine and why not? (eh, Mrs. Tax?)
Life’s a pleasure that I deny not

I like life here and now
Life and I made a mutual vow
Till I die, life and I,
We’ll both try to be better somehow
And if life were a woman she would be my wife
(S says) Why?
(G) Why? Because I like life!
(S says) That’s all very well for you but not for me. I hate life.
(G says) Scrooge, you’re an even bigger fool than I took you for!
Now you listen to me. (Trisham, join in!)
(G) I like life.
(G says) Well, go on!
(S) I like life
(G says) That’s better!
(G) Life likes me
(S) Life likes me
(G says) Good! Good!
(G) I make life a perpetual spree
(S) Perpetual spree
(G) Eating food (Frank smiles)
(S) Drinking wine (Everyone smiles)
Thinking who’d like the privilege to dine me
I like drinking the drink I’m drinking (Guinness, frankly!)
(G says) That’s better, Scrooge!
(G) I like thinking the thoughts I’m thinking
I like songs, I like dance
I hear music and I’m in a trance
(S) Tra la la!
(G) Oompapah!
(both) Chances are we shall get up and prance
(G) Where there’s music and laughter happiness is rife
(S) Why?
(G) Why? Because I like LIFE!

(both) Where there’s music and laughter happiness is rife
Why? Because I like life
See how much we like life!” (JUST AS GOD INTENDED!)

Cheers!

F


27 posted on 10/13/2007 5:19:22 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: NYer
Bella comes out on October 26th.
28 posted on 10/13/2007 5:23:22 PM PDT by It's me
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To: Frank Sheed

I only saw a preview but it was obvious this is fodder for the kind of people who have a fondness for anti-Catholic lies.


29 posted on 10/13/2007 5:36:17 PM PDT by Varda
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To: irishjuggler

Amen. The Renaissance was a by-product of centuries of Catholic enquiry into science, and antiquity (classical Latin, sculpture, philosophy, etc.).

If the Catholic Church has a monopoly on knowledge it was due to her incredibly hard work and support of the arts and sciences.

And you’re right about the Inquisition too. As Henry Kamen showed in his 1998 book, The Spanish Inquisition, most of what we think we know about the Spanish Inquisition is myth.


30 posted on 10/13/2007 6:00:27 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: MNJohnnie

There is something called the black lengend, and the liberal Spanish historian, De Madiaga, no great friend of the Church, devoted a book to the debunking of it. Phillip was a very diffident religious warrior. He did set the Inquistion on the Protestants in the Netherlands for the same reason that Elizabeth set her secret service on the Catholics: they opposed his government of the Netherlands. In 1588 he finally mounted an invasion of England because for many years Elizabeth had aided the rebels in the Netherlands, had even sent an army to help them. The war between England and Spain was mainly a trade war. It was religious in that if Elizabeth were deposed, a Catholic prince would be put on her throne. But heresy was not Phillip’s main objection to the English government.


31 posted on 10/13/2007 8:32:47 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: stripes1776

The executions cost Mary much popularity but Mary was followed by a Protestant was because Elizabeth was a Protestant. The allegiance of the people was to the House of Tudor, which is why the attempt to replace Mary with Jane Grey was a failure. Mary had the beter claim to succession. If Mary had lived another twenty years, England would have remained a Catholic country at least until Elizabeth suceeded her.


32 posted on 10/13/2007 8:40:16 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Frank Sheed

What?

Galadriel was NOT a protestant! I think she was some sorta elven counter-culture hemp-stress or something.

But she still gave Frodo that vial of holy water, so she HAD to have at least spent some time under the ruler of the nuns.

Perhaps she was ticked off that her author, JRR, a Catholic, didn’t let her get medieval on some orcs in the end. Payback can be ugly.


33 posted on 10/13/2007 8:56:44 PM PDT by Ottofire (Works only reveal faith, just as fruits only show the tree, whether it is a good tree. -MLuther)
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To: stripes1776
Elizabeth (reinged 1558-1603) executed fewer Catholics in her 45 years on the throne than the Catholic Mary I

Rubbish. Elizabeth I in the norhtern rebellion alone executed 800 Catholics. Mary was said to have executed 250 people. In Ireland the numbers were far higher. Walter Ralegh himself executed 600 Irishmen who were most likely Catholic in Smerwick.

Anglicism of this day was imposed by pure thuggery in Ireland. Many Priests and fathful were hanged so many as can't be reliably counted.

She was a butcher Queen.
34 posted on 10/13/2007 9:18:22 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: RobbyS
Mary was followed by a Protestant was because Elizabeth was a Protestant.

That is correct. The Protestants were so outraged at Mary's butchery, they insisted that Elizabeth become queen, even though Catholics claimed she was an illegitimate child and therefore ineligible to accede to the throne.

If Mary had lived another twenty years, England would have remained a Catholic country at least until Elizabeth suceeded her.

You don't know that. No one does. That is pure speculation. It is called a fallacy of induction, more specificallly a fallacy of false cause. There are certainly other possibilities. She might have been sent into exile or fled for her life because of a Protestant revolt, and indeed lived for twenty more years. Or she might have been put into prison for twenty years. Or she might have had a conversion experience and become Protestant. No body knows what would have happened. Let's keep the discussion to what happened. When I want wild fantasy, I read novels, not biography.

35 posted on 10/13/2007 9:31:01 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: Dominick
Rubbish. Elizabeth I in the norhtern rebellion alone executed 800 Catholics. Mary was said to have executed 250 people. In Ireland the numbers were far higher. Walter Ralegh himself executed 600 Irishmen who were most likely Catholic in Smerwick.

From The Western Heritage by Donald Kagan, Steven Ozment, Frank M. Turner:

Despite proven cases of Catholic treason and even attempted regicide, she [Elizabeth] executed fewer Catholics during her forty-five years on the throne than May Tudor had executed Protestants during her brief five-year reign.

I tend to trust anything with Donald Kegan's name attached to it. I have read the estimates someplace, don't remember where, but will do some research to find them.

What are your sources? By the way, armed combart is not execution.

36 posted on 10/13/2007 9:49:03 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: Dominick

Shakespeare.


37 posted on 10/13/2007 11:23:24 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: RobbyS
I guess I see your point. For Catholics this is sort of a blood libel. Like the way the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” is for Jews. One of those historic lies that absolutely must be refuted when ever it rears it’s ugly head.
38 posted on 10/14/2007 2:41:56 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Yo Democrats : Don't tell us how to fight the war, we will not tell you how to be the village idiots)
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To: stripes1776

That refers to England alone. Somehow the vile way that England govered Ireland as a colonial master is never brought to the foreground. BTW, Many of the Protestants whom Mary executed were anabaptists and Elizabeth was not much easier on them when she came to power than she was on Catholics. Most of the Anglicans were willing to change their religion to save their necks.


39 posted on 10/14/2007 3:20:06 AM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Frank Sheed

And everyone knows that Catholics are responsible for global warming too! :) Thanks for posting the review. It looks like just another tiresome anti-Catholic film to avoid.


40 posted on 10/14/2007 6:24:05 AM PDT by NewCenturions ( By The Great Horn Spoon !)
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To: NewCenturions; Frank Sheed

Global warming is caused by my Big Van! Bwahahahahaha!


41 posted on 10/14/2007 7:13:34 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("Is there any extra food around here anywhere?")
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To: stripes1776

Outraged or not, the Protestant party came to power only because the country wished to follow the will of Henry VIII, which named Edward. Mary and Elizabeth as his heirs. No one wanted to return to the state of civil war that preceeded the Tudot ascent to the throne. Henry VII and Henry VIII firmly established Tudor rule, because virtually the whole of the nobility and the merchants of the City saw the dynasty as an anchor. When the Protestant Party sought to remove Princess Mary from the succession and place on the throne the very young, and very devout Jane Grey—who likely would have been Edward’s wife if he had lived—the country rose in rebellion. Mary of course wasted much of this good will first by the unpopular Spanish marriage and then by the executions. Furthermore she was unlike Elizabeth, a strong and decisive person, and was uncertain about policy. There was public revulsion at the religious persecutions, but hardly enough to threaten her whole on the country. Most of her victims were anabaptists who were regarded with no great affection by the anglicans, and it was only when they were included in Foxe’s marytology that they became Protestant heroes. What doomed the Catholic regime was Mary’s failure to produce an heir and her early death—she was less than 40. Elizabeth then ascended to the throne and then simply reversed the Marian reforms. Probably she learned from Mary’s mistakes, and avoided marriage while for many years holding out the bait of a marriage. She also saw the misfortunes of Catherine D’ medici and her cousin, Mary Stuart, about the perils of a Queen trying to rule a divinded state. Most English Catholics give her credit for having avoid the horrors of relgious war, as in France, and of the tyranny of Protestant zealots as in Scotland.


42 posted on 10/14/2007 8:37:18 AM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: NYer
I'd add to that list The Left Hand Of God, Humphrey Bogart, 1955.
43 posted on 10/14/2007 9:33:37 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: Tax-chick; NewCenturions

The sad part of all this is that Britain is now barely Christian and will be a Muslim country within a generation. Read the book, “Londistan.”

F


44 posted on 10/14/2007 9:47:18 AM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: Tax-chick
Global warming is caused by my Big Van! Bwahahahahaha!

Actually, the most recent studies have shown conclusively that global warming is most definitely the result of my huge barbecue grill used at our tailgate parties. I have the parking tickets and hate mail from "Greenies" to prove it. Reminds me, I need another couple of cords of hickory wood!

45 posted on 10/14/2007 9:51:54 AM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: onedoug
...For which I skipped Colleen Carroll Campbell's Faith Today on EWTN.

I'm not Catholic, though I deeply respect the Church, as neither am I Jewish, but take my faith from there. (And they really took a licking.)

I'm going to see this film later today. I'll check in here later with my impressions.

46 posted on 10/14/2007 9:53:01 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: Frank Sheed

You’ve got that right!


47 posted on 10/14/2007 9:54:07 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: RobbyS
Good post.

What would really educate people on the 'way it really was' would be to read Eamon Duffy's 'The Stripping of the Altars' and 'Voices of Morebath'. The scholarship is impeccable since Duffy used documents, books and period writings that were previously never touched, thus preventing the true story of England's Reformation from being honestly addressed. Duffy's credentials are impeccable and he is universally regarded as one of the foremost experts on this period in history. To read his works forces you to relearn/rethink everything you thought you knew about the English Reformation.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/002-2759702-6824008?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Eamon%20Duffy

I'm sorrry! I post so little that I forget how to make a link!

48 posted on 10/14/2007 11:19:42 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: NYer

I don’t agree with all of the movies on the “50 Greatest Catholic Movies of All Time. (Quiz Show? Groundhog Day? I wouldn’t have picked Schindler’s list either, because of Liam Neeson flashing his bum.)

Here are the ones I would keep on the list and others I would add below:

Greatest Catholic Movies:
Going My Way
The Quiet Man
Song of Bernadette
Ben Hur
A Man for All Seasons
It’s a Wonderful Life
The Scarlet and the Black

Additions:
The Passion
Sound of Music
The Trouble with Angels
Keys to the Kingdom (Gregory Peck)
How Green was My Valley (Maureen O’Hara, Roddy McDowell)
An Affair to Remember (scene where they visit the aunt)
Yours, Mine and Ours
A Thousand Men and a Baby (a little cheesey with “John Boy”, but a tear-jerker)
Cinderella Man (Russell Crowe)
Count of Monte Cristo (Jim Caviezel)
Lord of the Rings Trilogy
Trouble Along the Way (John Wayne, Donna Reed)
Bella (probably came out after list was published)

I am sure I am missing a bunch. Anyone have any others?


49 posted on 10/14/2007 11:23:46 AM PDT by MockTurtle
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To: NYer

I don’t agree with all of the movies on the “50 Greatest Catholic Movies of All Time. (Quiz Show? Groundhog Day? I wouldn’t have picked Schindler’s list either, because of Liam Neeson flashing his bum.)

Here are the ones I would keep on the list and others I would add below:

Greatest Catholic Movies:
Going My Way
The Quiet Man
Song of Bernadette
Ben Hur
A Man for All Seasons
It’s a Wonderful Life
The Scarlet and the Black

Additions:
The Passion
Sound of Music
The Trouble with Angels
Keys to the Kingdom (Gregory Peck)
How Green was My Valley (Maureen O’Hara, Roddy McDowell)
An Affair to Remember (scene where they visit the aunt)
Yours, Mine and Ours
A Thousand Men and a Baby (a little cheesey with “John Boy”, but a tear-jerker)
Cinderella Man (Russell Crowe)
Count of Monte Cristo (Jim Caviezel)
Lord of the Rings Trilogy
Trouble Along the Way (John Wayne, Donna Reed)
Bella (probably came out after list was published)

I am sure I am missing a bunch. Anyone have any others?


50 posted on 10/14/2007 11:24:10 AM PDT by MockTurtle
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