Posted on 10/19/2007 9:51:40 AM PDT by NYer
I sorry, but I still do NOT see where GOD asked her permission.
You might be right, but this info can't be gleaned from the pictures.
Please do not misconstrue my strong felings on this for an attack, I recognize that you honestly believe what you believe, and it's got support from the bible, I honestly believe what I believe,and it's got support from the Bible too.
No problem. I understand exactly where you are coming from.
MY problem is that I believe the Bible when it predicts things like Mormonism coming along.
I bash on the Clintons
I can
you never know, some anti's seem a bit unbalanced... (it was a joke, OK?)
lol
I see exactly why. My ID stuff will be going away soon, for...
...I just got a FAST connection to the Web guys, so can see your YouTWOB links now! (Will I EVER waste time at high speed now!)
And just WHAT is so ABOMINABLE in that creed??
Angels are messengers from God. The angel Gabriel brings an 'announcement'. Have you ever received a wedding announcement? It requires a response. This is no different. Mary is asked to assent to a truth never expressed before. The angel awaits an answer; it is time for him to return to God who sent him.
No; this is inaccurate.
We say you worship a different Jesus than we do.
The Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonicans because they SEARCHED the Scriptures to see if what they were told was true.
You guys search for a FEELING to see if what you've been told is true.
If God and Christ are in reality not of the same substance, then teaching that they are obscures the scriptures and keeps people from becoming like Jesus.
If God and Christ are in reality of the same substance, then teaching that they are not obscures the scriptures and keeps people from becoming like God.
Let me likewise keep it simple:
Genesis 3:5
"For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Becoming like GOD is not very high on our adgenda.
Sorry; but I do not see where he awaited an answer to a question that was not asked.
Mary was TOLD what was going to happen: it says so in the text. To spin it so that is NOT what the text says... well...
More bad logic.
One. We don't think one is abominable - but just WRONG.
Two. The ideas after the THENS in your statements: where do they come from?
Have you ever received a wedding announcement? It announces a beautiful event that is about to take place and awaits a response from you.
Elsie, in what language was Scripture written?
5 And, behold, it is because that you did not continue as you commenced, when you began to translate, that I have taken away this privilege from you.We are commanded to Study before we ask, not just ask unthinking as you are saying here.
6 Do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner.
7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.
22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:For once, Satan told the truth. Ya just can't trust a liar to even lie reliably, can you.
Mostly Hebrew and Mostly Greek.
With some things being inHittie and a smattering of othe ancient languages in the OLD, and a few other words in amoung the Greek.
This is not true, Joseph smith in D&C 9:5-9
8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.
HUH? How do you mange to SKIP right over what your own Living Prophet® had written??
Let me make it simple:
If God and Christ are in reality not of the same substance, then teaching that they are obscures the scriptures and keeps people from becoming like Jesus.
If God and Christ are in reality of the same substance, then teaching that they are not obscures the scriptures and keeps people from becoming like God.
If one is right, (then implied) the other is abominable, which is why you think what we believe is abominable, and I'm OK with that, what you believe, I think is abominable, But, I still think you are a Christian, and I believe you are sincere in your misunderstanding of the scriptures. I wold be fine with you saying the same thing about me, but your side keeps trying to say i am not a "Christian" because I believe a doctrine you don't.
As I have told many:
"Reality Is. Our job is to get our perspective as close as we can to reality, thus we avoid pain, and come closer to God, who is the only one whose perspective and reality are the same thing. Like the Chinese, I shorten this to two words to express to people who know my philosophy. "Reality Is."
Elsie, Reality Is.
What!!!???
Now you can't even read your OWN words!!!
DU, are you channeling SOMEone else?
Second I never try to draw a conclusion, but leave the logic (obvious as it is) to the reader.
When the logic statement says...
If X or Y then Z
...and you've supplied the Z, then, you HAVE drawn a conclusion by limiting the range of answers that could fit the critiria.
Let me make it simple:If God and Christ are in reality not of the same substance, then teaching that they are obscures the scriptures and keeps people from becoming like Jesus.In Reality God is not Both the same and different substances, one is right, and the other wrong.
If God and Christ are in reality of the same substance, then teaching that they are not obscures the scriptures and keeps people from becoming like God.
If one is right, the other is abominable, which is why you think what we believe is abominable, and I'm OK with that, what you believe, I think is abominable, But, I still think you are a Christian, and I believe you are sincere in your misunderstanding of the scriptures. I wold be fine with you saying the same thing about me, but your side keeps trying to say i am not a "Christian" because I believe a doctrine you don't. As I have told many:
"Reality Is. Our job is to get our perspective as close as we can to reality, thus we avoid pain, and come closer to God, who is the only one whose perspective and reality are the same thing. Like the Chinese, I shorten this to two words to express to people who know my philosophy. "Reality Is."
Elsie, Reality Is.
Teaching false doctrine leads people away from God.
Leading people away from God and reality is abominable in God's sight.
Judging other people and denying what they say they believe is not reality, unless you can prove they are lying.
Denying that they have a perfect understanding of reality is to be in the Beam / mote situation described by Jesus.
I freely admit that I do not fully comprehend the mind of God, Do you?
I state that I am following the light and truth that he has manifested in my life through his son Jesus Christ.
I testify that Jesus Christ is the son of God, that he Died for you and me to atone for our sins on the cross and was resurrected that all me may be reconciled to God and that the bands of death were broken by him.
Is this not the very meaning of the word Christian? someone who believes in and on Jesus Christ?
Definition of the word Christian form Dictionary.com
5 And, behold, it is because that you did not continue as you commenced, when you began to translate, that I have taken away this privilege from you.HUH? How do you mange to SKIP right over what your own Living Prophet® had written??
6 Do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner.
7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.
You've shown NO proof of this assertion.
KJV Philippians 2:5-8
5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
You want to quibble over words?
Ok then.
Do you like this any better?
You guys search for a FEELING to see if what you've STUDIED is true.
Whether you STUDY or are TOLD; it's a FACT that neither are true (IYHO) unless you get 'The Feeling'!
... you shall have a stupor of thought ...
I wouldn't want this curse on me; either!
You might want to look up this word, or maybe this one.
Stop telling me what my opinion is, and stop telling me what I believe, I know and you don't.
Sigh...
So upset because I merely point out what your 'scriptures' say!
I didn't lay the eggs; I merely colored them - red.
You want to 'interpret' them so they do NOT say what they plainly say; I can't stop you.
But for you to blame ME for what your founder wrote is, well... strange.
Of course!
5 And, behold, it is because that you did not continue as you commenced, when you began to translate, that I have taken away this privilege from you.
6 Do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner.
7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore,you shall feel that it is right.
9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?Yet, I have been told be evangelicals it is not to be taken literally, it is just a story... I do not argue what they believe. I tell them I take it literally. on the other had you are trying to tell us how we must read our own scriptures that you don't believe in.
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.Joseph Smith
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Bah!!
That is a CREED!!!
Except that then you take those "Interpretations" and proceed to tell me a Mormon what Momrons believe.
Sorry Charlie; I did not. I merely SHOWED you what the Founder of your Religion wrote.
Anyway, The Focus is on study, prayer and then confirmation which May come by feelings, but that is only one of the ways it can come.
Sorry; but that's NOT what your SCRIPTURE says!
Behold!
But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
**It doesn’t matter if millions believe that, if it does match the original in doctrine, it is not the original church. I don’t care if it started a month after Pentecost 33 A.D.**
Should be: .....if it does NOT match the original....
(arrrgh, I didn’t proof read until today!)
Sorry I didn’t respond promptly, my work sometimes keeps me from the pc for days.
I was raised, instructed in, and followed the trinitarian theory for my first 28 yrs (am now 53). The co-this, co-that, and co-everything, yet separate and distinct thinking is full of inconsistancies. When these snags pop up, the concluding point always is ‘it’s a mystery’.
**Jesus told his disciples, “to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28: 19).**
My version has ‘name’ singular as well, but commas divide the titles (what trinitarians call names).
That’s part of what’s commonly called ‘the great commission’. All of the Lord’s commissions were great, including Luke 24:45-48 “Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures. And said unto them, thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem, and ye are witnesses of these things...”.
These men had been trained by the best, and responded by baptizing in the name of Jesus.
They knew that the saving name of the Father was Jesus. “I am come in my Father’s name...” John 5:43
They knew that the Son’s name was Jesus (multiple scriptures agree).
They knew that the name of the Holy Ghost was Jesus. “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name...” John 14:26
That’s why the apostles, who obeyed Matt 28:19 (and did not simply repeat a command) baptized in the name of Jesus.
The apostle born out of due time, Paul, baptized souls in the name of Jesus. Later he dealt with a Corinthian church that had saints bragging about who baptized them instead of glorying in the Lord: “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?” 1 Cor. 1:13
I consider the trinity description of God to be more confusion than mystery. However, I see on this thread that the Mormons definitely are heavyweights in the confusion category.
That’s ok; for by the info you’ve given me, I’m sure OTHERS will ‘squirm’ in other threads.
Toodle ooo.....
Acts 19:13-16
13. Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.”
14. Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.
15. [One day] the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?”
16. Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.
**As for your argument that coming in the name of someone means you are them, it’s really quite simple, have you ever represented someone (come in their name) without being the same person? (Working for a company, power of attorney, carried a message...)**
Yes, and I could easly have said, “I come to you with a quality product. The founder, CEO, and operations manager will guarantee satisfaction.” In my case, it is one person, my boss.
The Son testified that it was the Father in him doing the works, and telling him what to say. When the Spirit of God left the man Jesus on the cross, he knew it, crying out. But God raised him from the dead.
The almighty Spirit of God is the Father; the Son testified of that (John 4:23,24). This is key: the Son was only devine while the Father was in him, but now is the dwelling place of ‘all the fulness of the Godhead bodily’ (Col. 2:9).
Lord bless
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.You Said: The almighty Spirit of God is the Father; the Son testified of that (John 4:23,24).
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.God is our father because he gave us life as a Spirit, which he has. God is also corporeal for he has a body, are you a spirit, or a Body? Can you be called both a spirit, and a Soul? How about this Scripture:
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.So, Jesus had his own spirit that he was Commending unto the Father.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.You need to stop chopping up the scriptures, here try this:
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.To me reading this, the Nicene creed is the Philosophy and Vain Deceit, I wrote a section on that on my page, here on Free Republic. Yes, Jesus Personified the Godhead in all it's power and Majesty in him is manifest our Journey as children of God from Spirit to Mortal to Immortal. In him truly is the fullness of the Godhead bodily. (see? you and I both interpret the scripture, but differently. You will now probably claim that you are not interpreting, LOL!
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.Jesus says the oneness of the disciples should be like his and the Father's oneness, This is not interpretation, it is exactly what the scripture says.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
The whole trinity idea is based on the thinking of the natural man: “Well, there is a father, that had a son, so that would make two, and a helper fellow, that makes three.”
And the Lord met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth.....say thus.......”God is not a man, that he should lie; or the son of man that he should repent..” Num. 23:16-19
The phrase “God the Father” IS scriptural.
The phrase “God the Son” is NOT scriptural; the phrase “Son of God” IS scriptural. IT IS THAT WAY FOR A REASON.
The Son(fleshly man with a soul) was BEGOTTEN. He was only from the beginning in plan.
test question: Who was the Father of the Son,; the Father or the Holy Ghost? Both? (That’s one of many snags of trinity teaching)
The Father was in Christ; so much so that John the baptist said: “For He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God; for God giveth NOT the Spirit by measure unto him.” John 3:34.
Christ himself said: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath annointed me.....”. Luke 4:18
The Word does not tell you who is speaking, the man Christ Jesus or God the Father, when Christ speaks. You should (without the mindbending of man’s false doctrines) easily see that when Jesus Christ says “I thirst”, or “not my will, but thine, be done”; that’s NOT GOD talking, that’s the mind of a mortal man.
God spoke through Christ much of the time, for example, Luke 10:18: “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven”. Or John 2:19, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up”.
**John 10:17
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.**
Don’t forget the next verse (18): “No MAN taketh it from me, but I lay it down OF myself. I have POWER to lay it down, and I have POWER to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” What is that power? the Spirit of God. Another good one: “Paul an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, WHO raised him from the dead;)” Gal. 1:1
**...God the Father leaving Jesus to die all alone and without the choice to do otherwise. Of course, this is blasphemy,....**
**Why Pray to himself in the third person, why speak of the father in the third person?**
That choice was made when the Son (flesh) said to the Father (Spirit) “not my will, but thine, be done”.
**God is our father because he gave us life as a Spirit, which he has.**
Big ‘S’ as in Holy Spirit (those who have received the Holy Ghost), or little ‘s’ as the spirit that God has given to every man? Rom. 8:16 “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit (small ‘s’) that we are the children of God.”
**You need to stop chopping up the scriptures**
I won’t deny I have slow typing and deficient pc/internet skills.
**God Does not lie, God does not mislead, God does not decieve.**
True.
**why speak from the heavens when Jesus was baptized, was he practicing ventriloquism?**
That’s pretty lame, but your’re using the natural man to understand the things of the Spirit. One omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Spirit of God can dwell IN a man, give supernatural audio visual signs (for John’s benefit), and still manage the rest of mankind at the same time.
**Why speak to Moses Face to Face, was it fakery?**
Hebrew 1:1 (I’m sure you know it)
**Why Use the Father’s testimony**
BECAUSE: John 5:31 “If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.” and another 14:10 “..the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”
**Why appear to Stephen as his is being marytered and confuse people, is he playing with us? playing with Steven?**
Again the natural man interpretation, thinking Stephen apparently saw two entire beings.
Take a look at the numerous ‘right hand’ references throughout the old testament, especially in Psalms. It’s the symbolic place of power and authority.
**Why does he introduce himself as his Only Begotten son?**
Because the Son was the only sinless flesh that was fathered by the Father.
**Jesus says the oneness of the disciples should be like his and the Father’s oneness, This is not interpretation, it is exactly what the scripture says.**
Yes, and that is man filled with the Spirit of God.
John 14:16-20 Jesus taught his disciples that they would receive another Comforter...”even the Spirit of truth....ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.....at that day” (When they receive the Holy Ghost) “ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” Jesus is telling them that he is coming back in another manifestation: AS the Holy Ghost! Paul called it “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Paul also said, “..Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his).
That brings us to the BIBLE experience of receiving the Holy Ghost:
Is being ‘pricked’ in one’s heart a sign of Holy Ghost baptism? No. Acts 2:37
Is hearing the gospel and believing a sign of Holy Ghost baptism? No. Acts 8:12 and 37
When souls are filled with the Holy Ghost (like they were in the Bible) they are yielded to God so completely that he controls their most unruly member, the tongue, and they speak praise unto God in a language they did not previously know. Acts 2:4; 10:44-46; 19:6
This dramatic, supernatural happening is incredible, letting that soul KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE (not warm fuzzies)that God has taken up residence in his body.
I will close with the inspired words of Paul: “but if the Spirit of him that RAISED Christ from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you”. Rom. 8:16
If you have not received the Holy Ghost the BIBLE way, then you don’t have it. Simple as that. (notice I was nice and didn’t make condecending comments and blasphemy accusations)
**His is the perfect example**
Amen, and may the Lord bless as you seek his perfect will.
27 My asheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:Again we can go to the Scripture also in John where Jesus himself gives a definition to his and the Father's oneness: John 17:21-22
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:Knowing that the Apostles did indeed become one but not in some Pre-technology transformer fashion where they physically would join together to become a "Super ApostleTM" but instead became one in heart, might, mind and strength. then that is how Jesus and God are one, it's in the scriptures, we have no need to be confused by a creed created in a council convened by a Pagan in 325 AD to use Christianity to unify his fractured Roman empire. Don't Believe me? I Document it all, including refrences to the Catholic enclyclopedia on line, Here on my page on FR
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.I said: You need to stop chopping up the scriptures
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,This is indeed a beautiful chapter in the Bible:
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.And later in:
1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.If Jesus is the same substance of God and testifies of him self and when Questioned, says the Father testifies of him, he is lying for he is saying there are two witnesses, and in truth, there is only one. We agreed that God id a God of truth, and cannot lie., remember?
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus estanding on the right hand of God,It seems pretty claear to me exactly what Stephen saw, I guess you have to interpet the scriptures in some non-literal way not to be being "fooled".
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.You said: I will close with the inspired words of Paul: “but if the Spirit of him that RAISED Christ from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you”. Rom. 8:16
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.So, The Spirit of God (the Holy Ghost) Jesus Christ as a member of the Godhead, is God and raised himself from the dead, so this is accurate. This Spirit (the Holy Ghost) will quicken our mortal bodies. That makes sense too.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
"It ain't bragging; if'n it's true!"
God have mercy on me; a sinner.
I said: The Son(fleshly man with a soul) was BEGOTTEN. He was only from the beginning in plan.
You said: BZZT, Wrong! We were all planned for, God knows everything, remember, past, present and future. How could he not plan for what was most surely to come since he knew it was going to happen? Besides, it’s scriptural.
I say: You’re agreeing with me and you don’t even realize it, for you said, “How could he not plan for what was most surely to come since he knew it was going to happen”.
Yep, God had a plan in the beginning.
You said: God the Father is the literal father of Jesus Christ. He acted through the Holy Ghost’s power in a way that we were not told how.
I say: So, it took two separate and distinct Gods to father the Christ. The Father needed the Holy Ghost’s help to accomplish the task. The Father couldn’t do it by himself?You admit the trinity doctrine is manmade, yet you seem to be saying that there are two fathers of Jesus Christ.
‘Father’ is a title. How does the Father do anything? He is a Spirit. That’s how he works in mankind..by..his..Spirit.
You said: Now, lets look at a scripture where Jesus declares himself to be God, and when challenged by some of the Jews for “Making himself God”, Jesus points out that all men have the potential to become Gods.
I say: You pride yourself in laying out long passages, yet you interpret them to suit your doctrine (or maybe are simply presenting what you are taught by your teachers).
Why no emphasis on verse 30 “I and my Father are one.” One, not two. Jesus Christ was (and is God) because of the Father IN him doing the works.
verse 34: Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Of course the Lord was quoting from Psalms 82. How about the part where God says:” but ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes”.
I know you will say that I’m interpreting, but I believe that God is referring to men sent to speak the word of God.
You said: Again we can go to the Scripture also in John where Jesus himself gives a definition to his and the Father’s oneness: John 17:21-22
I say: I gave you John 14:16-20 to explain that. (I know, didn’t lay it out for ya, but the meaning is there.)
You said: I truly tell you that your interpretation that Jesus was a man when he died on the cross offends me for it cheapens Jesus’ sacrifice, by having him tied to the stake like the goat baiting a trap, an unknowing, unwilling sacrifice with God leaving at the last minute to allow him to die alone. This is not the Atonement, this is not majestic and great sacrifice of a perfect soul who loved his brothers enough to die for them, this is not what is written in the bible, and it pains me that you actually believe such a base and low interpretation.
I say: My dealing with your trained concept of the Godhead is really what offends you. After all, your concept is two images. You thank me for bringing up Heb. 1:1, then display the whole chapter, then interpret it, as if that means you understand it all.
You say: Jesus is in the Express (exact) image of God the Father (How can you be created in the Express image of some thing that has no image?) (3)
I say: Scriptures must harmonize. You said something about two witnesses. How about Col. 1:15 “Who is the image of the INVISIBLE God, the firstborn of every creature.” Talk about ‘no interpretation needed’
And we continue, verses 16 & 17: “For by him were all things created, that are in HEAVEN, and that are in EARTH, visible and INVISIBLE, whether they be THRONES, or DOMINIONS, or PRINCIPALITIES, or POWERS, ALL THINGS were created by him and for him. And he is before ALL things, and by him ALL things consist.” If you believe in two Godhead images in heaven, your logic has the Father created by the Son.
Also, by your logic, if the Father has his own separate and distinct heavenly knees, he too, will bow to the name of Jesus. Phil. 2:10
But how is this explained: As I have said several times, The Father (Spirit) is IN the Son (sinless flesh).
And how did Jesus Christ stay sinless; by the Father dwelling in him. It’s how he was able to tell his disciples, “..be of good cheer; I have overcome the world”. John 16:33
In the garden, the man Christ Jesus was strengthened by an angel. By your logic, that would be totally unnecessary, since the man Christ Jesus is a separate power of God (just one with the Father, in agreement).
By your logic, in heaven, the image of the Father says to the image of the Son: “You’re going to have to dwell in a fleshly body and die, but I’ll raise you up.” The Father would appear to be a coward by that reasoning. The Father is a Spirit, which “hath not flesh and bone, as ye see me have.” Luke 24:39.
God made himself a body to redeem fallen man. This man was born sinless, yet was tempted in all points. You say I’m not giving him a choice. His choice was this: “I come to thy will, O God”. (Heb. 10:7-10) He had to be made perfect through sufferings. The man Christ Jesus went to the cross willingly; the power of the Father kept him sinless all the way to the cross, and then left him (because you cannot kill deity). The Father raised him up (you kinda let my Gal. 1:1 reference just slide on by).
Your logic has one portion of the power of God crying out to another portion of God. Talk about low and base interpretations.
You said: Jesus sat down on the Right hand of the Majesty on high (God the Father) who has a right hand side to sit on. (3)
I say: You believe the ‘right hand’ is literal (go back and read those verses in Ephesians again, please). Do you also believe that Rev. 5:6,7 are literal as well? You really need to do a study on the ‘hand’ or ‘right hand’. Did Moses use sign language to instruct Aaron and his sons? (Lev. 8:36)
The Israelites were brought out of Egypt ‘with a mighty hand’.
Or how about an ‘arm’? “And he saw that there was no intercessor:”.. (why? because he was yet to be made.)”therefore his arm brought salavation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.” Isaiah 59:16
Would a vision of seeing two images in heaven set the scribes and pharisees into a rage? Not like someone claiming that he sees Jesus Christ in the place of power and authority. They went beserk when that was the apparent claim.
Jesus Christ said, “All power is given me..”. That is harmonious to the claim that the fullness of the Godhead is found bodily in Jesus Christ.
You said: Jesus inherited his name(s) (4)
I say: absolutely, He said, “I am come in my Father’s name..” John 5:43. The Christ also said, “..the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in MY name..” John 14:26.
That is why the apostles baptized in the name of Jesus. They had the revelation of Jesus Christ, and therefore knew the saving name of God.
And the Lord’s water baptism:
You said: But why do it, We have already agreed that God does not deceive.
No deception at all, just additional confirmation to John that Jesus was the annointed one. (Also, since you’re quick with the links, read Acts 10:36-43 real slow a couple of times)
And of my mention of Rom. 8:16:
You said: Well said, but alas, again you end too soon:
I say: that’s fine put entire passages up.
You said: Jesus Christ as a member of the Godhead, is God and raised himself from the dead, so this is accurate.
I say: Inaccurate, read Gal 1:1 again.
You said: Actually, I have met all of your criteria, and then some. I have received the Holy Ghost....
You also said: Are you saying that anyone who has not spoken in lounges has not received the holy Ghost?
Surely you know that that particular manifestation did not always happen, correct?
I say: How can you be sure? In Acts, the born again instances that don’t go into detail don’t say they did not speak in tongues. One instance in Acts 8:5-24, that does not go into that detail does mention a sorcerer. This man had done some startling things, to the point where the Samaritans said, “..this man is the great power of God....”. But after seeing souls filled with the Holy Ghost, offered the apostles money for the power to lay hands on people so that they receive the Holy Ghost. IMO, I don’t think he was moved to that extreme by seeing someone say’ “I accept the Lord as my savior”.
I’m sure you know that Romans through Revelation are letters to the church, to the saints. Those people had already been born again, they had no need of the rebirth being explained all over again (although it is alluded to in some places). People that have not been born again can read the epistles, but they need to read them in that context.
You also said: Those who think the Gift of tongues is babbling with no one who can understand them are greatly mistaken.
I say: I’ve seen babblers that are suspect (that’s another subject), but there are unknown tongues: Paul said: “Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels,..” 1 Cor. 13:1
Also: “For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT unto men, but UNTO God: for NO man understandeth him: howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries”. 1 Cor. 14:2
I say: I believe you repent and practice it. Were you baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins? (he and the apostles demand it)
Have you received the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues? If not, how can you be sure you have, for Jesus, teaching on being born again, said there is a sound heard when everyone receives it: “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou HEAREST the SOUND thereof, but CANST NOT TELL whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is EVERY ONE that is BORN of the Spirit.” John 3:8
My experience was likewise. At church one night, over 25 yrs ago, while I was praising and worshipping God, I began to say unknown words I had not previously spoken. I stopped immediately. A brother praying with me said, “why did you stop?”
I said, “well, I was startled by it, because that wasn’t me doing it.”
He said, “Correct, it wasn’t you. That’s the Spirit of God speaking through you, making his presence heard.”
That is how a soul becomes one with God, the Father in you, just like he is in Jesus Christ. That’s how to become a joint heir.
You said: ..editing links is pretty obvious once you look at a few. It’s still the KJV Bible, even if we have more, grin.
I say: The extras, and the way parts of the rest of the Bible is taught by your organization, is highly suspect to error.
You said: I have hope only in Jesus, may you also have that hope.
Thank you, ‘an right back at cha’ (lingo of my occupation; a humble truck driver)(and if another reply is needed, it might be awhile, that’s that lifestyle I live).
Solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity
157. The solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity is celebrated on the Sunday after Pentecost. With the growth of devotion to the mystery of God in His Unity and Trinity, John XXII extended the feast of the Holy Trinity to the entire Latin Church in 1334. During the middle ages, especially during the carolingian period, devotion to the Blessed Trinity was a highly important feature of private devotion and inspired several liturgical expressions. These events were influential in the development of certain pious exercises.
In the present context, it would not appear appropriate to mention specific pious exercises connected with popular devotion to the Blessed Trinity, "the central mystery of the faith and of the Christian life"165. It sufficies to recall that every genuine form of popular piety must necessarily refer to God, "the all-powerful Father, His only begotten Son and the Holy Spirit"166. Such is the mystery of God, as revealed in Christ and through him. Such have been his manifestations in salvation history. The history of salvation "is the history of the revelation of the one true God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, who reconciles and unites to Himself those who have been freed from sin" 167.
Numerous pious exercises have a Trinitarian character or dimension. Most of them begin with the sign of the cross "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", the same formula with which the disciples of Jesus are baptized (cf. Mt 28, 19), thereby beginning a life of intimacy with the God, as sons of the Father, brothers of Jesus, and temples of the Holy Spirit. Other pious exercises use formulas similar to those found in the Liturgy of the Hours and begin by giving "Glory to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". Some pious exercises end with a blessing given in the name of the three divine Persons. Many of the prayers used in these pious exercises follow the typical liturgical form and are addressed to the "Father, through Christ, in the Holy Spirit", and conserve doxological formulas taken from the Liturgy.
158. Worship, as has been said in the first part of this Directory, is the dialogue of God with man through Christ in the Holy Spirit168. A Trinitarian orientation is therefore an essential element in popular piety. It should be clear to the faithful that all pious exercises in honour of the Blessed Virgin May, and of the Angels and Saints have the Father as their final end, from Whom all thing come and to Whom all things return; the incarnate, dead and resurrected Son is the only mediator (1Tim 2,5) apart from whom access to the Father is impossible (cf. John 14,6); the Holy Spirit is the only source of grace and sanctification. It is important to avoid any concept of "divinity" which is abstract from the three Divine Persons.
159. Together with the little doxology (Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit....) and the great doxology (Glory be to God in the highest), pious exercises addressed directly to the Most Blessed Trinity often include formulas such as the biblical Trisagion (Holy, Holy, Holy) and also its liturgical form (Holy God, Holy Strong One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us), especially in the Eastern Churches, in some Western countries as well as among numerous religious orders and congregations.
The liturgical Trisagion is inspired by liturgical hymns and its biblical counterpart. Here mention could be made of the Sanctus used in the celebration of the Mass, the Te Deum, the improperia of Good Friday's veneration of the Cross, all of which are derived from Isaiah 6, 3 and Apocalypses 4, 8. The Trisagion is a pious exercise in which the faithful, united with the Angels, continually glorify God, the Holy, Powerful and Immortal One, while using expressions of praise drawn from Scripture and the Liturgy.
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