Calvinism on the Rise in Southern Baptist Life

The Christian Post ^ | Nov. 29 2007 | Audrey Barrick

[topcat54]

While I’m not a Baptist, I am greatly encouraged to see the truth of God’s peculiar grace and sovereignty in our salvation returning to the Southern Baptists.

Many Baptists are throwing off not only the shackles of Arminianism but also of the related and pernicious error of Dispensationalism.

[P8riot]

Finally, to your point about being dead in sin, we were all dead in sin before our Baptism.

Baptism doesn't save. It is an outward sign of the covenant, the same as circumcision was. The only sacraments that the reformed church recognizes are baptism and communion.

[the lone haranguer]

Thanks for your comment. I would agree heartily that reading the commentaries are so very important to give a true doctrinal picture of any confession. It is a shame that more people do not take an interest.

More comes out in the commentaries than in any sermon. Witness Philip Melanchthon. He was extremely clear in the original Augustana, but over time and upon more reflection, and in the interest of making peace, he went back and rewrote the Augustana, creating the Variata, a significantly different document purporting to say the same things as the original.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen.

[the lone haranguer]

If Baptism doesn’t save, then God is a liar.

In 1Peter, chapter 3: 18-22, the Holy Scriptures state,”18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.”

Further, The Scriptures state, “He who believes and is baptized shall be saved...” and John 3:5 in which Jesus states “5Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.” (Sounds like Baptism to me)

Baptism saves, based on God’s word itself.

Baptism is the means of grace through which we are visited by the Holy Spirit who works faith in us. We are baptized at Christ’s command. (the last chapter of Matthew)

Holy Communion works in us, giving us the remission of sins. This again is promised by Christ himself. (Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

First, God is not the author of sin. Second, as you note, belief is a crucial element in salvation. Those who are not of the elect are dead in their sin, and are not capable of such belief. One who has believed, and thus been saved, is, by definition, one of the elect. So Calvinism is in full accord with the scriptures.

Amen.

WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH
Chapter III
Of God's Eternal Decree

I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[4] yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[5]

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[7]

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[8]

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11]

VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16]

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.[17]

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]

Footnotes refer to Scriptural proofs found at the site.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen, TC. Progressive sanctification. 8~)

[the lone haranguer]

I am sorry, but I do not understand how you can make the claim when it clearly states in Points 3&4 that God “foreordains some to everlasting death.” and states that “the number cannot be changed.”

From my view, that says that God created some people specifcally for the purpose of sending them to hell. That makes Him the author of evil, if you subscribe to this doctrine. That’s the earthly equivalent of inviting you to dinner at a time I know absolutely, that you cannot come. That’s no invitation; that’s cruelty. How can someone EVER be certain of their salvation given this point of doctrine?

God cannot, under any circustance be evil and yet, that is exactly what these articles of faith make Him. You cannot say that God does all of these things claimed in your confession of faith, but He’s not the author of evil. (Point 1) Either He is or He isn’t. That’s the equivalent of saying a woman is with child, but she’s not pregnant. One directly affects the other.

I agree that God is not the author of sin; Sin came into the world through one man. However, these articles of faith make God the author of evil, because it makes Him a God who treats us as mere playthings, some to save, some to burn, and most definitely not as His beloved children.

[wmfights]

Knowing what will happen based on man’s or rebellious angel’s parts is worlds different that inciting it.

God foreknew everything from before time. Yet God made those that would do evil anyway. The alternative is God does not know what you will do before creating you and just hopes for the best. The latter is not an all powerful God.

If there were any evil in Him, we would know, because He wouldn’t keep His promises.

God's ways are not our ways. He created all things, even those that do evil. Why? In the end those that do evil in some way serve his purpose.

Funny how you change the focus to implying that any who disagree are trying to say God has evil in him, that has never been said.

[the lone haranguer]

I know an outlet will shock me if I stick a fork in it. If I see my kid try to do that, my knowledge does not cause him to do it. At worst, I, by my permissive nature, allow him to do for some purpose.

We completely agree that God foresees all things. He limits His involvement in some, because of His permissive will. See Job. He is all powerful, as you state. I would posit that He is powerful enough to give us the ability to make our own decisions, bad or good. Our decisions create the evil, not God’s willingness to allow us the ability. He doesn’t want to be worshipped by robots; that’s why the concept of free will exists.

As to the author of evil argument, I believe we are talking past each other. He did create all things, knowing that some would go bad. That doesn’t mean He wants them to go bad or that they were foreordained to go bad; it means that free will on our parts and permissive will on His part are acting in concert. I also agree that the evil done by man or allowed by God does have a specific purpose, even if we don’t understand what that purpose is.

Finally, my point about the inherent goodness of God is this. God is perfect, without sin, and without any evil within Him. Take the example of the leaven, with the leaven representing sin. A little affects the whole batch. All I’m saying is that because God is perfect, just, and wholly good, He cannot possibly be the author of evil. Therefore, He could not possibly create some people for the purpose of going to heaven, and create others for the sole purpose of sending them to hell. That would make Him the author of evil, and I do not believe, nor will I ever, that He is that cruel.

I wasn’t trying to accuse or avoid; I was simply trying to say that if God is totally good, He can’t do evil. We, on the other hand, along with angels, can do more than our share. His creation corrupted itself; He didn’t corrupt it. He knew what we would do, and because of free will, He chose not to interfere. Rather, He gained glory for himself through the incarnation of His Son, and Christ’s ultimate sacrifice for us all.

Peace

[Gamecock]

because it makes Him a God who treats us as mere playthings, some to save, some to burn, and most definitely not as His beloved children.

So assuming that election/predestination is not in the Bible (which it clearly is), and man is only wounded not dead, and can come to God of his own free will.....

What if God knows that people won't choose Christ and creates them anyway, knowing full well that they will burn forever. Is that somehow more palatable?

The fact is we are dead and, of our own free will, will reject Christ every time. When God causes us to be born again, we will chose Christ, every time.

Without God showing mercy to some, all would be judged and burn. God shows mercy to glorify Himself. God punishes sin, to glorify Himself.

[P8riot]

Then, by your logic, the thief on the cross, and all those who have come to faith on their death beds are rotting in Hell right now.

[the lone haranguer]

Not necessarily. All of that hinges on God’s grace and His Word. The thief is most certainly in heaven. He died confessing Christ. That applies to deathbed conversions as well. Remember, the Bible also states, “He who believes shall be saved; he who believes not shall be condemned.” This and the other verse aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. That’s up to God.

Baptism is not an absolute requirement for salvation, nor did I state that it was. It is a free gift, given by the grace of God. Except in extraordinary circumstances, why would anyone not want to be baptized?

[the lone haranguer]

I never said that predestination was extra-Biblical. I said that DOUBLE PREDESTINATION was. God certainly knows who will and who will not choose Him. Does He want everyone to choose Him and be saved? Yes. Will everyone? No. God provides the free gift of grace to ALL, just like He provides Universal Atonement. The decision to reject God is the individual’s, not God’s. All of us have an equal opportunity at salvation; some choose to reject it. That’s their doing, not God’s.

Also, I never said that man came to God by his own free will. That’s how man rejects God.

To your rather graphic and sarcastic point about creating people knowing they won’t follow Him, He creates them like He creates everyone else. To do otherwise makes Him unjust. They have the same opportunity to come to faith, just as we do. They reject it. The fault lies not with God, dear reader, but within ourselves. (Apologies to Shakespeare)

How hard must it be for a just and loving Father to create children knowing that they will reject and hate Him, eventually dying eternally?

Finally, God has shown mercy to all so that they may be saved and glorify His Name. Some simply choose to despise it.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

From my view, that says that God created some people specifcally for the purpose of sending them to hell. That makes Him the author of evil,

No, it doesn't. Read Romans 8 and 9.

However, these articles of faith make God the author of evil, because it makes Him a God who treats us as mere playthings, some to save, some to burn, and most definitely not as His beloved children.

No, they don't. God loves His family so much that He has assured them that even though they are fallen sinners, yet He has saved them.

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast." -- Ephesians 2:4-9

[suzyjaruki]

What does “author of evil” mean? AND, where did evil come from?

[the lone haranguer]

Romans 8 and 9 don’t agree with those articles of faith you posted earlier. No where does it speak of those foreordained to death, nor does it point to any situation where God is responsible anyone being sent to hell. That is a result of their individual decisions.

I agree with what you say about God’s love and mercy for His children, but I cannot reconcile that to the articles of faith posted earlier by you. From my perspective, it looks like that mercy is only available to those who are elect, regardless of whether the person believes and conforms their life to that of the Christian.

In short, The articles of faith state that only certain peoples will be saved, the remainder will go to hell, there’s nothing you can do to change it, and only God knows who’s elect. That sounds to me like God likes some of His kids a whole lot more than others. How do you square that with the idea that there is more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents...? If you’re elect, you’re in, no matter what. If you’re not, you’re burning, no matter what. It seems to make that whole passage, not to mention how you live your life, pointless.

I don’t want to sound like I’m sniping; I really do want to understand this, because the more I find about different confessions, I realize that some of my LCMS upbringing may color them more negatively than they deserve.

[the lone haranguer]

Suzy,

Perhaps the good doctor will agree, or perhaps not. My view of the expression, “author of evil”, at least in the context of this conversation, points to the idea that God would do anything unjust, unfair, or that doesn;t agree with who God is. Biblically, God tells us, “ I, the Lord thy God, do not change and therefore thou art not consumed.” (paraprhasing Malachi) If God is perfectly good, he cannot do evil and remain a perfectly good God. Right?

Therefore, if God creates some people as, in my view the Calvinists believe, for the sole purpose of sending them to hell with no hope of redemption, he would be authoring evil upon those people and would not be the perfect God of goodness and love we know him to be.

Basically, using that term blames God for people not being saved, when in reality, it is the decision of those unsaved to reject Him.

That’s a roundabout explanation. Hope it helps.

Peace

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I guess if Romans 8 and 9 and the WCF don't answer your nagging doubts, then you should probably just return to Scripture and keep reading.

For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7

" I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." -- John 17:9

[PAR35]

You started out OK. Then you got off track. Everybody in the world will get, at the worst, justice. No one will get any less than he deserved. God has, however, chosen some for mercy, rather than justice.

Limiting God to foreknowledge sounds good to sinful man, but it isn’t Biblical.

With regard to your question about Baptism, baptismal regeneration is neither Reformed, nor Biblical. While it is a sin (in the reformed formulation, ‘a great sin’) to neglect that sacrament, it is not determinative of salvation. Omitting baptism won’t cost you your salvation, and a baptism without a profession of faith won’t save you from condemnation.

The two protestant sacraments ARE recognized as means of grace.

Are you aware that the Reformed faith teaches that there is a real, if spiritual presence in the elements of communion?
“Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements, in this sacrament, do then also, inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally but spiritually, receive and feed upon, Christ crucified, and all benefits of His death: the body and blood of Christ being then, not corporally or carnally, in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet, as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.”