Posted on 11/30/2007 8:12:50 AM PST by Alex Murphy
Suzy asked you where you thought evil came from.
Amen.
I think our FRiend, Haranguer, is a Romanist.
Then, where did evil come from? God created everything good.
Have you, a Lutheran, read Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will? Too bad the LCMS does not teach with authority on this issue.
Here's Luther's take on free will...
"Furthermore, I have the comfortable certainty that I please God, not by reason of the merit of my works, but by reason of His merciful favour promised to me; so that, if I work too little, or badly, He does not impute it to me, but with fatherly compassion pardons me and makes me better. This is the glorying of all the saints in their God." -- Martin Luther, "Bondage of the Will" -- (xviii) Of the comfort of knowing that salvation does not depend on free-will' (783) "I frankly confess that, for myself, even if it could be, I should not want 'free-will' to be given me, nor anything to be left in my own hands to enable me to endeavour after salvation; not merely because in face of so many dangers, and adversities, and assaults of devils, I could not stand my ground and hold fast my 'free-will' (for one devil is stronger than all men, and on these terms no man could be saved) ; but because, even were there no dangers, adversities, or devils, I should still be forced to labour with no guarantee of success, and to beat my fists at the air. If I lived and worked to all eternity, my conscience would never reach comfortable certainty as to how much it must do to satisfy God, Whatever work I had done, there would still be a nagging doubt' as to whether it pleased God, or whether He required something more. The experience of all who seek righteousness by works proves that; and I learned it well enough myself over a period of many years, to my own great hurt. But now that God has taken my salvation out of the control of my own will, and put it under the control of His, and promised to save me, not according to my working or running, but according to His own grace and mercy, I have the comfort¬able certainty that He is faithful and will not lie to me, and that He is also great and powerful, so that no devils or opposition can break Him or pluck me from Him. `No one,´ He says, `shall pluck them out of my hand, because my Father which gave them me is greater than all´ (John 10.28-29). Thus it is that, if not all, yet some, indeed many, are saved; whereas, by the power of ´free-will´ none at all could be saved, but every one of us would perish.
Meant to ping you also to 44.
The predestination to life for the elect is clear from scripture. So the question then becomes whether the remainder of the people have a second path to salvation (a second chance lottery, so to speak), or whether, if they aren't of the elect, they are by definition to receive justice.
I'm not aware of Arminian theology calling for such a dual path to salvation.
My apologies. When I was pinging folks to a couple of threads this morning, I left you out.
No problem. I was just admiring your travel map. Wow, you get around!
If so, we need to forego Calvin and Westminster, and go to Augustine for our discussions.
Calvinists do, Muslims don't. If you examine the five pillars of Islam & the Koran, you'll see Islam is entirely works based. It doesn't matter what you believe, you're just required to go through the motions & if you do what is required "good enough" you get rewarded.
Isn’ that close to “The Will of Allah”?
Christianity is about what God does & has done for His children. Islam is about what Allah's children must do for him, so when the "Will of Allah" isn't what the Muslim wants, it's a sign that the Muslim hasn't earned enough of Allah's favor.
I guess we’ll agree to disagree. I agree with your initial points, but we will part ways on God’s foreknowledge v. automatic predestination.
To your final point, I am keenly aware and profess publicly that the bread and wine I receive in the Lord’s Supper are truly Christ’s body and blood, present via divine mystery, in, with, and under the veils of bread and wine. Communion and baptism are the means by which we poor sinners, deserving of condemnation, receive God’s grace. That grace works faith and regeneration within us, allowing our faith to grow, for the good works God has prepared in advance for us to do.
Evil came into creation by the choice of 1/3 of God’s angels to rebel, because they had the ability, just like Adam did, to choose. “ Just as sin came into the world by one man...”
I have Suzy, and I cannot see where my position differs very much from Luther’s belief. I believe that I am, on my own, completely and utterly unable to do anything that is good. Through His grace, which I received through Holy baptism, I am able to do the good works which were prepared in advance for me to do, but only because of God’s grace, which worked faith in my heart.
I was not aware that the LCMS failed totally in that arena. My congregation, at least, is crystal clear on this point.
Thank you, Doctor. (I think)
I am a Lutheran, although so right leaning as to be about 8 points of doctrine away from a Romanist.
I think we agree on nearly this whole passage, but I think you are missing the comment toward the end.
” Thus it is that, if not all, yet some, indeed many, are saved; whereas, by the power of ´free-will´ none at all could be saved, but every one of us would perish. “
That quote tells me that I cannot be saved by free will, but I may most certainly burn because of it. That has been the way I have always understood this passage from Luther.
Not only can we not choose to be saved, because we are evil, we can choose NOT to be saved for the very same reason.
Sorry for the delayed response. the weekends get crazy.
By all means, let us examine Augustine. Perhaps we can find the common ground we seek. I am not certain, but would be interested to hear you viewpoints.
A good place to start would be Augustine’s discussion of predestination and foreknowledge. For common reference, I’m working largely from Volume 5 on this page http://thirdmill.org/books/series.asp/category/bookssub8#npnf1
Or see some of the same material here:
http://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/augustine-perseverance.htm
Chapter 47 is particularly helpful. Augustine saw foreknowledge and predestination to be saying the same thing: “when the apostle says, “God hath not cast away His people whom He foreknew,” He intended to signify predestination. For He foreknew the remnant which He should make so according to the election of grace. That is, therefore, He predestinated them; for without doubt He foreknew if He predestinated; but to have predestinated is to have foreknown that which He should do.”
See also from Chapter 41 “Therefore, also, grace precedes faith; otherwise, if faith precedes grace, beyond a doubt will also precedes it, because there cannot be faith without will. But if grace precedes faith because it precedes will, certainly it precedes all obedience; it also precedes love, by which alone God is truly and pleasantly obeyed. And all these things grace works in him to whom it is given, and in whom it precedes all these things. “
But if the issue between us is merely double predestination, see Augustine’s comments: Chapter 35: “ But since it was not given to them to believe, the means of believing also were denied them. From which fact it appears that some have in their understanding itself a naturally divine gift of intelligence, by which they may be moved to the faith, if they either hear the words or behold the signs congruous to their minds; and yet if, in the higher judgment of God, they are not by the predestination of grace separated from the mass of perdition, neither those very divine words nor deeds are applied to them by which they might believe if they only heard or saw such things...? And, therefore, they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again,85 He hath blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. “
I agree with the initial statements made by Augustine,as they are Scriptural. However, while a fan of his, my confession does not agree with the latter statement regarding predestination. We would take the position that because an individual continues to sin unrepentantly, God will eventually harden the heart of the unbeliever, but only after the person has continually rejected the Gospel and the Holy Spirit. Witness the account of Exodus, involving Pharoah and the plagues. In the first plagues, Pharoah hardens his own heart, and in the latter few, God hardens Pharoah’s heart. This is done, but not without many opportunities for Pharoah to “turn from his evil way and live.”
I don’t believe that this view conflicts with the Isaiah passage you quote, except in the view that God did it ahead of time, with no negative input from the unbelievers. To me, confirmation of unbelief is paramount. Otherwise, I think it says that Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t universal. (I think it was.) To me, it looks like Augustine goes a step beyond and lays this at God’s feet, as opposed to laying it where it belongs: at the feet of the unbeliever.
Just my ramblings...
I turned to Augustine when I thought you might be of Rome. Since you are a Lutheran, I’ll switch over to that double predestinarian, Martin Luther, as he answers those who feel it would be unjust to condemn those not predestined to eternal life:
“AND if you are concerned about this, - that it is difficult to defend the mercy and justice of God, seeing that, He damns the undeserving, that is, those who are for that reason ungodly, because, being born in iniquity, they cannot by any means prevent themselves from being ungodly, and from remaining so, and being damned, but are compelled from the necessity of nature to sin and perish, as Paul saith, “We all were the children of wrath, even as others,” (Eph. ii. 3.), when at the same time, they were created such by God Himself from a corrupt seed, by means of the sin of Adam,” ...
Bondage of the Will
http://www.covenanter.org/Luther/Bondage/bowpt3.html
And this:
“Is “Free-will” included in the number of those that believe, or not? If it be, then again, it has no need of grace; because, of itself, it believes on Christ - whom, of itself it never knew nor thought of! If it be not, then it is judged already and what is this but saying, that it is damned in the sight of God? But God damns none but the ungodly: therefore, it is ungodly.”
And I’ll conclude with a passage from Luther’s Conclusion:
“For if we believe it to be true, that God fore-knows and fore-ordains all things; that He can be neither deceived nor hindered in His Prescience and Predestination; and that nothing can take place but according to His Will, (which reason herself is compelled to confess;) then, even according to the testimony of reason herself, there can be no “Free-will” - in man, - in angel, - or in any creature!”
http://www.covenanter.org/Luther/Bondage/bowconcl.htm
That’s OK; as I said, I do agree with Rome where they’re right.
Luther’s “Bondage”, if taken under the LCMS view, makes perfect sense as to what I have argued. The same can be said if its perception is colored by a Calvinist view, when it’s argued from that point. The damned who are undeserving are those who have rejected Him, His Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are undeserving of salvation because they refuse to repent of their ungodliness. Those of us who are saved were shown that need by the Spirit. Else, we are all “children of wrath. “ God’s mercy to all who do not reject the Spirit makes the difference.
Free will is a tough nut to crack, but from my dyed in the wool LCMS upbringing, Luther argues that there is no free will to do anything good, redemptive, or worthy of salvation on our part, including turning to God. We can ALWAYS continue to be purely evil; that’s not a choice - it’s what we are. Like predestination, it’s a one-sided affair. It offends our human sense of balance and fairness, which make it hard to understand. I have a fairly poor grip on it myself, as I’m sure my arguments have convinced you. :)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.