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1 posted on 12/17/2007 11:09:51 AM PST by Greg F
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To: Greg F

Dwarves: Wayword souls - they brought about their own destruction, at least the ones living in the mountains, because they ‘dug too deep’.


2 posted on 12/17/2007 11:12:30 AM PST by Catholic Canadian ( I love Stephen Harper!)
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To: Greg F
I found myself doing the same thing you did. Gandolf died & was resurrected.
3 posted on 12/17/2007 11:12:53 AM PST by GoLightly
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To: Greg F
Elves: Angels. They are superhuman in their understanding and abilities and they can choose to leave middle earth unlike the other races.

Orcs: Demons. They are a race of elves abused, corrupted and changed by Sauron.

If you go by the books, Maiar and Valar == angels. Known examples in Middle Earth are Gandalf, Saruman, Radugast, Sauron and maybe the Balrog.

Sauron: Satan.

Morgoth == Satan

5 posted on 12/17/2007 11:16:23 AM PST by Lee N. Field ("Dispensationalism -- threat or menace?")
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To: Greg F

If you viewed it on TV you missed a lot. Lots of editing to fit the TV run time.


6 posted on 12/17/2007 11:19:12 AM PST by PeteB570 (Guns, what real men want for Christmas)
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To: Greg F

Tolkien denied any allegory or symbolism in LotR, but I’m sure his worldview permeates it.


7 posted on 12/17/2007 11:21:30 AM PST by Chanticleer (I want God, I want Poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness, I want sin.)
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To: Greg F

You may be interested in reading:

“Christian History Corner: J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis, a Legendary Friendship”
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/augustweb-only/8-25-52.0.html


9 posted on 12/17/2007 11:24:07 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Greg F

The ring of power is a pretty obvious exemplar of the sin of pride, putting oneself above God, or supplanting God.


11 posted on 12/17/2007 11:27:49 AM PST by Argus
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To: Greg F
There are three Christ figures in The Lord of the Rings. Prophet (Gandalf), Priest (Frodo), and King (Aragorn).

Gandalf dies for the Fellowship (representatives of all the peoples of Middle Earth) and is Resurrected and given new powers. He even rides a white horse, wields a sword, and leads an unlooked for host of warriors in the Battle of Helms Deep.

Frodo takes the Ring (the sins of the world) onto himself and suffers and sacrifices all that he loves for the world.

Aragorn is the forseen King who establishes his domain on (Middle-)Earth and sets up a rule of peace and tranquility.

There are also some other interesting insights into Tolkein's Theology. I am personally in awe of his reconciliation of "grace and works" in the story. The "works" of destroying the ring are essential for the "grace" to take effect. Frodo cannot destroy the ring of his own choice, it is left to Providence to destroy it. But that hope of Providence had to be brought about by works.

Without the works, the grace was empty. The Ring would have sat at Rivendell as Sauron overwhelmed Middle-Earth with evil.

Without the grace, the works were empty. Frodo would have been taken by evil and would have become the new Dark Lord, overwhelming Middle-Earth with evil.

12 posted on 12/17/2007 11:29:07 AM PST by Anitius Severinus Boethius
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To: Greg F
Two comments:

Tolkien did not like allegory, and emphatically denied that LOTR was such. Any attempt to draw 1:1 correspondence between entities in the Real (Christian) world and Tolkien's fantasy will be problematic. His work was certainly informed by his Christian faith, but is not a Christian Allegory.

Only the humble Christian (Hobbit) can withstand the temptation. The lords and kings cannot.
Neither can the Hobbits. At the end, Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it as his own. Gollum then bit Frodo's finger off, tripped, and fell into the volcano. Tolkien wasn't into Pelagianism (even in an alternate universe).

16 posted on 12/17/2007 11:39:13 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Greg F

Gandolf: wears a white robe, leads the people, custodian of tradition, carries a staff, probable summer residence in Gandolf Castle (Castel Gandolfo)=THE POPE


17 posted on 12/17/2007 11:41:28 AM PST by Petrosius
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To: Greg F
In his own letters, JRRT makes an association between Elves and Jews.

He also says that Elves are like humans but without their limitations - they do not die of natural causes, but can be killed, have greater wisdom, etc.

19 posted on 12/17/2007 11:49:11 AM PST by ikka
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To: Greg F

Actually I was likening it to WW2, with the 2 wizards as Chruchill and Hitler, the peoples being the allies and axis powers, the ring being supreme dictatorial power, etc.


20 posted on 12/17/2007 11:52:27 AM PST by theDentist (Qwerty ergo typo : I type, therefore I misspelll.)
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To: Greg F

I see the destruction of 19th century romaticism, the destruction of the rural lifestyle, and the evil of runaway industrialization in that tale.

Those elves represent the thinkers of the classic world, rennaisance, and 19th cent. romanticism.

The immortality of the grey havens represents the fame of great people—thinkers or doers—after they die.

The departing of the elves represents the change from a more pastoral life and way of thinking to the dog-eat-dog industrial twentieth century.

Gandolf represents science used rationally.

The bad wizard represents runaway industrial science (shown by the destruction of natural beauty, the forests, to fuel and be replaced by those underground factories.

The “resurrection” of Gandolf represents how one can be changed by the experience of war into someone of great inner strength, with a matured view of the meaning of life and death. It also reminded me of those people who come back to life after having almost died, and who remember death as so pleasant an experience that they no longer fear dying (expressed by Gandolf in his White Shores talk to the hobbit).

When Aragon enlists the dead in that mountain, that represents how those who accept their own death in a struggle (represented here by war), are those most likely to survive that struggle—they, like Aragon, take death as an ally.

The red glow and various lights of Mordor on the horizon represent the explosions of distant modern warfare on the horizon.

The Ents represent how the natural world can destroy those who carelessly damage it through rampant industrialization (as global warming today threatens our industrial lifestyle?).

I could tell more if I had the time.


22 posted on 12/17/2007 11:56:22 AM PST by Age of Reason
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To: Greg F

Men are just men, but Hobbits are Christians?


31 posted on 12/17/2007 12:18:37 PM PST by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Greg F
The Ghost Army: Tolkien was a Catholic. Souls in purgatory given a chance at redemption.

Good analysis. Can't add much. Unlike "Narnia," "Rings" isn't meant to be an exact metaphor for Christian belief. I think Tolkien's idea was to create another Creation, or "sub-Creation," or something like that. At least that's what I've read.

The Ghost Army: Tolkien was a Catholic. Souls in purgatory given a chance at redemption.

Not exactly. Every soul that enters purgatory is bound for heaven. Purgatory represents a state of purgation or cleansing prior to heaven. Purgatory does not represent a "second chance."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.


33 posted on 12/17/2007 12:24:11 PM PST by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Greg F

Where does God fit in?


40 posted on 12/17/2007 1:33:00 PM PST by shekkian
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To: Greg F

As others have oberved, Tolkien rejected all attempts to view the LOTR as an allegory. Also, though Tolkien was a Catholic, the LOTR is has more in common with Norse and British mythology than Christian scripture. The completeness of Tolkien’s cosmology is staggering. Read the Silmarillion.


42 posted on 12/17/2007 1:38:10 PM PST by JayWhit (Always keeping it real.)
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To: Greg F

I thought JK Rollings said Gandalf is gay.... oh wait, that was the other wizard guy....


53 posted on 12/17/2007 2:33:29 PM PST by Porterville (Don't bug me about my grammar, you are not that great.)
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To: Greg F
You do realize that these are not new insights. Tolkien himself described the symbolisms included in his masterpiece. J. R. R. Tolkien once described his epic masterpiece The Lord of the Rings as "a fundamentally religious and Catholic work."

Much more can be found here:

The Catholic Imagination of J.R.R. Tolkien

59 posted on 12/17/2007 4:50:52 PM PST by big'ol_freeper ("Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~ Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Greg F

Check out these series of lectures by Joseph Pearce on Tolkien and LOTR?

They are really excellent with tons of information on Tolkien and his viewing of his work as a fundamentally Catholic work and the deep symbolism throughout.

http://www.sbts.edu/MP3/gheens/Lecture%201_Pearce.mp3
http://www.sbts.edu/MP3/gheens/Lecture%202_Pearce.mp3
http://www.sbts.edu/MP3/gheens/Lecture%203.1_Forum.mp3
http://www.sbts.edu/MP3/gheens/Lecture%203.2_Forum.mp3

These Pearce lectures were given at a Baptist Seminary on Tolkien and his Catholicism.


62 posted on 12/17/2007 5:26:40 PM PST by Atheist2Theist (http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/)
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