Posted on 03/01/2008 5:51:31 AM PST by NYer
Once a Southern Baptist pastor, Michael Cumbie converted to Catholicism in 2001 and has since been traveling far from his hometown near Pensacola, Florida, to preach his new faith to the nation. At Saint Therese Catholic Church in San Diego for a "renewal mission" this April, he spent three evenings speaking about his conversion, Catholic worship, and the Eucharist. About 200 hundred came to listen the last evening's talk. While he gathered his materials after his energetic presentation, I asked him some questions on the same topics.
Can you say something about the experience of the Holy Spirit in your life that put you on the path to Catholicism?
"Most Catholics and Protestants are familiar with the charismatic renewal, that came to all Christianity in the '70s. It was a big renewing of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, a little different from Pentecostalism, which started in the early 1900s. That movement of the Holy Spirit seemed to be of the less educated and maybe poorer people. Many folks would never have gone to one of those kinds of gatherings of people speaking in tongues and prophesying. But then in the '70s that experience of Pentecost which the Catholic Church celebrates every year, started to invade those mainline churches of educated people. Intellectual Christians started having the same experience that the Pentecostals did. I was swept up in that movement. But also, as a Southern Baptist, we did not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that they still operated today or were meant for today. But when I was in college I got around a group of young people that just had such a powerful presence of Christ in their lives. I'd never seen that. All Christians I knew up to that time were pretty much all the same -- I use the little analogy all the time, 'you don't know there are any hundred watt light bulbs if you're always around forty watt light bulbs.' So I got around all these hundred watt light bulbs and I noticed how much brighter their light was, if I can say it that way, and it just really drove me crazy. After about three months I said to these folks, 'You know, you guys have something I don't have. You're Christians, I'm a Christian, I believe that, but you've got some secret. I sense this powerful presence, and besides that you have such understanding of the Bible even though you've never been to Bible college,' and they said, 'Michael, it's the Holy Spirit'. Then they used the term 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' and I'd never heard of that, and to make a long story short we went through hours and hours of theological discussion. Because it was against my training and teaching as a Southern Baptist, they had a lot to overcome to try to convince me that this was a Biblical, Scriptural schism. But once they did, and I prayed and had the experience, it changed everything for me. The major thing it did, which began my conversion to Catholicism, was that it put a crack in my foundation that my denomination knew everything.
"Never at that point did I think about Catholicism, although the very first thing that happened to me that was unusual other than this gift of tongues, was that I drove past a Catholic Church and for the first time, I felt drawn to go in there and pray. Now I was raised so anti-Catholic -- we were told, don't you ever go inside a Catholic church. If you go into one, you can't get out. We laugh about it now, but we were deathly afraid of Catholicism. We thought it was from Satan and was deceiving millions of people, full of man-made rituals, because it was so different from our form of Christianity of preaching and singing and evangelizing. But I went into that Catholic Church, I spent four hours in that old, traditional, beautiful church. The pillars of marble, high altar rails, canvas paintings, stained glass windows -- it arrested me. I could not imagine what the people who went there did. I thought, with a building that looks like this, what do you do when you come here? I noticed the pulpit was not front-and-center like it always was at our churches where the emphasis is on hearing sermons and preaching. That experience marked me -- it did something to me that I've never gotten over. It began my conversion to the Catholic Church, because it caused such curiosity in me. I went home and I began to read, and every time we'd pass one of those churches, for the next ten years, I'd get my whole family out of the car and make them go inside and look at that church, and the kids loved it. They loved the holy water (they didn't know what it was for), and they loved the statues. I'd read them the little plaques beneath the saint statues which told the saint's story. I couldn't figure out at the time why God kept pulling me into those beautiful old churches to pray, when I was so anti-Catholic in my theology."
Would you say that exposure to the aesthetic appeal of traditional Catholic churches was your entry into sacramental theology?
"Well, yes, although it took fifteen years. What happened was, I went to a conference where a pastor stood up and said to us, 'The church in America is irrelevant.' (Now when he said 'church' he meant all the Protestants). He said, 'It's not having any impact on society'. I knew he was right, I knew something had been wrong for a long time. We preached our hearts out, but it wasn't changing the nation. It wasn't causing men who had no use for God to even consider God. So it really made me start to examine what we were preaching and what was our method of getting people converted -- was our method of salvation the right way? So this little preacher got up and said, 'The church is irrelevant,' and then said, 'we believe the cure for the ills of our society is for us evangelical Protestant pastors to return to ancient liturgy and sacramental theology.' I had no idea what he was talking about. I thought, 'We have to do what?'
"My friend next to me said, 'Oh, no, he's talking about C-C-C-Catholicism.' That pastor proceeded to spend the next hour and fifteen minutes telling us why he said what he said, and it so disturbed me, because I knew in my heart he was on to something true, but my head was giving me fits. It went against everything I believed. So we gave ourselves the next two years just to study and read the early Church fathers. We realized how much we had lost in the Reformation, and made a vow to try to take all our congregations and restore everything that was lost. No small task. We started to call ourselves 'ancient historical Christians', which of course is nothing other than Catholic. After trying many other alternatives (such as the Episcopal church) my wife Sherry and I decided to become Catholic. We needed a pope -- to be in line with Peter."
In a post-Vatican II climate, in which the word "renewal" can equate to a watering down of the faith, what does the word mean to you?
"Well, the first thing that comes to mind is, 'What needs to be renewed?' and 'Why does anybody need renewal?' When I was a Protestant we used the word 'revival'. We believed we needed reviving because we've gone cold and indifferent and spiritually dead, and at one time the faith was on fire and vibrant and alive. So that's what renewal and revival means to me. The Scriptures say, 'Can these dry bones live again,' and give examples of breathing on something that's become a dead formalistic mental exercise and is not alive spiritually anymore."
Do you think this kind of renewal is at the heart of what was called for by Vatican II?
"I think the Vatican Council was about this renewal. Of course I'm a new kid on the block, and have heard a lot of controversy about the second Vatican Council, and I've seen some great things that have come supposedly as a result of it, and some not so great things. But what I find out about those not so great things is that those were things that were never intended by the Council anyway. So a misapplication and a misinterpretation have happened. I will go on record saying I believe with all my heart that the Second Vatican Council is the voice of God to the Church. It is the magisterium. There's no arguing with that. How it's implemented though -- people get involved, men get involved.... Without being uncharitable, I can say some men with their own agendas came out of the council and tried to use the phrase, 'in the spirit of the second Vatican Council ... we have to change, etc, etc.... ' I think the Council was God's way of trying to bring renewal to the Church in the twenty-first century. I have to say, all the things I read about Catholicism -- the rubrics of the mass, the silence of the sacred space, the kneelers and the formality of dress -- it was all so refreshing to me. But when I actually saw the typical Catholic churches, it was very different. If I had walked into a modern, updated, liberal Catholic parish I would never have become Catholic. Because it's so much like the Protestant environment that I left. I was looking for structure, and respect for the sacred, and love for the holy, and we didn't have it. And many parishes, I'm afraid, have become just like that "in the spirit of Vatican II" of making the church a "gathering space" -- even though it is still sacred space we don't act like it is. So I think some things have been very detrimental to the faith and have even caused tens of thousands of Catholics to walk out and lose their faith. And again, that's not the Council's fault but just the statistics. Of the thirty-three percent of Catholics who still attend mass regularly, sixty-six percent no longer believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. This is the crisis in the church, not pedophilia. This loss of faith in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist -- that's the very doctrine that changed my whole life and caused my conversion, because all the Church's teachings flow from that doctrine."
Do you see the same need for a return to sacramental theology that you saw in the Protestant congregations?
"Absolutely. Dr. (Scott) Hahn says, 'We must evangelize the baptized first.' Evangelization has to start among our own people. And it's happening. There were about two hundred Protestant pastors that came into the Church the year I converted, and I heard two weeks ago that there are four hundred and seventy-nine Protestant pastors coming into the Church this year. So what's the Lord up to? He loves the Church. It's not going to die or fall apart. He promised that, but it may go through some real reviving and renewing and changing, and God is bringing hundreds of Protestant pastors, the leaders of Protestant Christianity, back home, to the roots of their own faith even as Christians. So it looks like the Holy Spirit is up to something."
Do you think there's a need to be especially careful when you are trying to make Catholic truths digestible to the average layperson?
"Yes, you have to be very careful. Most of us -- we converted pastors -- are not theologians, we're not experts, we learned just enough about the Church to know it was the truth. And what most of us try to share are just the things we know that changed our lives. There are many topics I will not touch. I cannot teach on a particular doctrine if I'm not educated in it. The things that I know according to Scripture, and that we can prove historically about the Church being the Church that Jesus started, I have no problem preaching up a storm on those kinds of things. But every teacher, apologist, or catechist has to be very careful. You try to make the faith as understandable as you can while avoiding any danger of heresy."
Do you feel that your call is to evangelize to the baptized first by sharing your story?
"By sharing my story, yes, but more importantly through apologetics. Why do we believe what we believe? You must be able to give an answer to anyone that asks you. Saint Peter said, 'You must be able at all times to give a reason for the hope that lies in you.' So first the baptized must be taught their own faith, and then taught how to answer criticisms of that faith from non-Catholic Christians who are very misinformed about the faith just like I was. And a kind answer turns away wrath -- you've got to be filled with love and with charity, but you have to know the faith. When it comes to those who have no faith at all, you need to ask yourself, 'Do I know how to share the love of Christ with them? Can I convince them of their need for God and salvation?' Can you love them into the Kingdom? God does the converting, we don't convert anybody. Our job is to be the best Catholics we can be. My job is not to tell you what to believe but to explain the faith. Then you must decide what you believe."
All that and the apparent worship of persons other than Christ. Like praying to Mary and other saints. Bible say put no other Gods before God. I do not hate Catholics just do not feel they follow scripture 100% but fall back on mad made traditions when convenient.
Plus the weddings are just too long :)
Most non Catholics who join the Church do so for the theology.
Most Catholics who leave the Church do so for personal ease.
This statement is very misleading on many different levels.
First, since his audience is Catholic, many may presume that the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" he refers to are the "Seven gifts of the Holy Spirit" as given in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Those being: wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, fortitude, piety and fear of God. They are not.
He is speaking of the gifts of the Holy Spirit which are listed in 1 Corinthians 12:1-14, 27-30, Romans 12:6-8 and Ephesians 4:11. Most Baptist believe that some or all of these gifts ceased to be (Cessationism) after the death of the Apostles.
Very few Baptists (and no Southern Baptists that I know) of are total censationists (Consistent Cessationists) whom believe than none of the gifts still apply. Though in his statement Mr. Cumbie implies that Southern Baptists hold this position.
The vast majority of Southern Baptist would hold that the "charismatic" gifts such as speaking in tongues, healing and prophecy no longer exist. But there are still some Southern Baptists that do not hold to any type of censationism at all.
Then I will pose the same question to you as I did to LS. How many of them are former priests or religious? The influx of Protestants into the Catholic Church is filled with hundreds - hundreds - of former Protestant ministers, with degrees in theology.
I will submit that minister means nothing. There are handfuls of minister that have gotten out of seminary that once in a church preach a mixture of their own beliefs and watered down Bible so not to offend anyone so I look upon them as weak in their beliefs anyway.
All I knew of except one were just good family folks who wanted more scripture with less pomp and circumstance. The one priest I know left the church but I did not know him well enough to ask why.
It's like Orthodox Jews becoming Reformed Jews......much EASIER...easier rules for sure.
Easier for whom? Most of the Catholics that I know sin without any regard and a couple times a year go and give a confession and start over again, plus vote for known abortionists. Where are the rules? To be fair the Protestants do the same and just pray for forgiveness on an altar call, in private, or when caught.
What is an altar call? and yes, EVERYONE sins!
At the end of a Baptist service the minister asks for anyone who wants to be saved or is saved and needs to come down front and be counseled or pray at the altar to come.
Then what?
DISALLOWING MARRIAGE is abnormal and not the place of any human being to make laws concerning another. Of course, Paul advised that we not marry because in marriage we would have tribulation. There is NT scripture that condemns the sects that would come later “forbidding marriage” and that we were to stay away from those. If the priests were allowed to marry after they become priests, it would probably solve a lot of the sexual problems amongst priests in the Catholic Church.
I am 61 years old. I have been through too much in a lifetime to even try to go into the amount of detail it would take to explain how I arrived at my beliefs.
For starters, it probably began centuries before I was born. My people were French Huguenot - Maupins - who were driven out of France by Catholic priests who were slaughtering and persecuting the Huguenot Protestants there in that era. They found sanctuary in Holland, and then in England where they gained land grants in America from the King of England for their service to the crown. So, you see, Catholic priests have always had a goodly number of rotten apples amongst their numbers.
From a personal perspective, I’ve seen enough of the Protestant preacher and wife power couple pocketing two-thirds of the total church income (with the blessings of a fearful congregation not wishing to cross a “man of God”). Then there was my mother-in-law introducing me to the “charismatic movement” back in the 70’s and 80’s, until I questioned the “get rich quick with Jesus” basic foundation of what the prosperity teachers were hawking. - Then, later, there were the few years I spent in the Greek Orthodox Church which labeled itself as more the American Orthodox Church - at first - then slowly, every time the bishop came over from Syria, or wherever, the services began to get more and more Greek in nature, and to center more on the Virgin Mary than upon Jesus Christ. I realized that I wasn’t physically able to stand for a three hour service every week, and more importantly, I realized I WASN’T GREEK! Just as I am not ROMAN either!
This is just a brief synopsis of where I am and how I got here. As to the exterior, I have chosen to dress modestly and wear the Christian headcovering that Paul also taught.
I realize there isn’t a perfect solution to “where to go for fellowship with the Church”, so I just fellowship with those who call upon the name of Christ whenever I can - but so far, the unstable “preacher centered” fellowships I’ve found lately are usually in a state of some sort of chaos or the other. So, I go along and do the best I can daily.
I choose to wear no label, but hope that the Lord and anyone I might come in contact with would see me as a simple Christian person in word and deed, in spirit and in truth.
You either pray at the altar ( from self and God ), briefly talk with pastor about a problem you are having or make an appointment to see after service, you announce you are transferring your membership from one Baptist Church to this one, or publicly accept Christ in front of Church.
There was one “Reformed” poster on here who claimed Protestants don’t have altars, since there’s no need for sacrifice anymore.
Baptist and Methodist Churches I have been in have an altar in the from on either side of the pulpit.
***If the priests were allowed to marry after they become priests, it would probably solve a lot of the sexual problems amongst priests in the Catholic Church.***
All the studies I’ve seen indicate that it wouldn’t. Plus, the priests that I’ve talked to don’t think it would help either.
***So, I go along and do the best I can daily.
I choose to wear no label, but hope that the Lord and anyone I might come in contact with would see me as a simple Christian person in word and deed, in spirit and in truth.***
And may God bless you; as He blesses us all.
These are classical examples of what we call "Cafeteria Catholics" or "CINOs". They do not read the encyclicals issued by the popes and ignore the teachings of the Magisterium, preferring to pick and choose those doctrines they want to follow. Essentially, their consciences are either poorly formed or they exercise God's gift of 'free will'. This is not unique to Catholics! It is far more prevalent in the Protestant Churches; hence the explosion of 30,000+ denominations that don't agree on what Scripture teaches.
To be fair the Protestants do the same and just pray for forgiveness on an altar call, in private, or when caught.
Altar call? I have never seen an altar in a Protestant Church.
There is usually a permanent table below the pulpit right in front of the pulpit where the sacrament of unleavened bread and either grape juice or wine (signifying the body and blood of Christ) are laid and served from regularly in most Protestant church houses. The table on which the sacrifice is laid would rightly be called an altar.
"signifying" is the Key word, isn't it. Our Eucharist IS the Body and Blood of Christ and he DEMANDED that we take and EAT His Body and Blood.....it's in the Bible...John 6:51-58....look it up.
I am blessed to be associated with a Bible believing and strictly accountable church.
What makes you think I do not regard the body and blood as REAL? If it is real to God, then who am I to declare it not; and I am not saying it is not? It is a mystery and we sully the subject with doubtful disputations.
Oh, I’m sure there are many of the Catholic persuasion who believe it has to be fed to them by a priest who has been laid hands upon by this and that bishop who has been laid hands on by this or that Pope, of course going all the way back to Peter. The rock on which Christ builds His church is the man, any person, who recognizes Him as the Christ, the Son of the Living God. That is my belief, and it is, I daresay, probably just as strong as yours to the contrary. A building that is supposedly built over the bones of a man is, in my thinking, a building. Christ is the Rock, the Chief Cornerstone, and there is, to my belief no other chief rock or stone (that the builders (Scribes & Pharisees) rejected) . . and we are living stones comprising the Church.
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