Posted on 03/01/2008 5:51:31 AM PST by NYer
Once a Southern Baptist pastor, Michael Cumbie converted to Catholicism in 2001 and has since been traveling far from his hometown near Pensacola, Florida, to preach his new faith to the nation. At Saint Therese Catholic Church in San Diego for a "renewal mission" this April, he spent three evenings speaking about his conversion, Catholic worship, and the Eucharist. About 200 hundred came to listen the last evening's talk. While he gathered his materials after his energetic presentation, I asked him some questions on the same topics.
Can you say something about the experience of the Holy Spirit in your life that put you on the path to Catholicism?
"Most Catholics and Protestants are familiar with the charismatic renewal, that came to all Christianity in the '70s. It was a big renewing of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, a little different from Pentecostalism, which started in the early 1900s. That movement of the Holy Spirit seemed to be of the less educated and maybe poorer people. Many folks would never have gone to one of those kinds of gatherings of people speaking in tongues and prophesying. But then in the '70s that experience of Pentecost which the Catholic Church celebrates every year, started to invade those mainline churches of educated people. Intellectual Christians started having the same experience that the Pentecostals did. I was swept up in that movement. But also, as a Southern Baptist, we did not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that they still operated today or were meant for today. But when I was in college I got around a group of young people that just had such a powerful presence of Christ in their lives. I'd never seen that. All Christians I knew up to that time were pretty much all the same -- I use the little analogy all the time, 'you don't know there are any hundred watt light bulbs if you're always around forty watt light bulbs.' So I got around all these hundred watt light bulbs and I noticed how much brighter their light was, if I can say it that way, and it just really drove me crazy. After about three months I said to these folks, 'You know, you guys have something I don't have. You're Christians, I'm a Christian, I believe that, but you've got some secret. I sense this powerful presence, and besides that you have such understanding of the Bible even though you've never been to Bible college,' and they said, 'Michael, it's the Holy Spirit'. Then they used the term 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' and I'd never heard of that, and to make a long story short we went through hours and hours of theological discussion. Because it was against my training and teaching as a Southern Baptist, they had a lot to overcome to try to convince me that this was a Biblical, Scriptural schism. But once they did, and I prayed and had the experience, it changed everything for me. The major thing it did, which began my conversion to Catholicism, was that it put a crack in my foundation that my denomination knew everything.
"Never at that point did I think about Catholicism, although the very first thing that happened to me that was unusual other than this gift of tongues, was that I drove past a Catholic Church and for the first time, I felt drawn to go in there and pray. Now I was raised so anti-Catholic -- we were told, don't you ever go inside a Catholic church. If you go into one, you can't get out. We laugh about it now, but we were deathly afraid of Catholicism. We thought it was from Satan and was deceiving millions of people, full of man-made rituals, because it was so different from our form of Christianity of preaching and singing and evangelizing. But I went into that Catholic Church, I spent four hours in that old, traditional, beautiful church. The pillars of marble, high altar rails, canvas paintings, stained glass windows -- it arrested me. I could not imagine what the people who went there did. I thought, with a building that looks like this, what do you do when you come here? I noticed the pulpit was not front-and-center like it always was at our churches where the emphasis is on hearing sermons and preaching. That experience marked me -- it did something to me that I've never gotten over. It began my conversion to the Catholic Church, because it caused such curiosity in me. I went home and I began to read, and every time we'd pass one of those churches, for the next ten years, I'd get my whole family out of the car and make them go inside and look at that church, and the kids loved it. They loved the holy water (they didn't know what it was for), and they loved the statues. I'd read them the little plaques beneath the saint statues which told the saint's story. I couldn't figure out at the time why God kept pulling me into those beautiful old churches to pray, when I was so anti-Catholic in my theology."
Would you say that exposure to the aesthetic appeal of traditional Catholic churches was your entry into sacramental theology?
"Well, yes, although it took fifteen years. What happened was, I went to a conference where a pastor stood up and said to us, 'The church in America is irrelevant.' (Now when he said 'church' he meant all the Protestants). He said, 'It's not having any impact on society'. I knew he was right, I knew something had been wrong for a long time. We preached our hearts out, but it wasn't changing the nation. It wasn't causing men who had no use for God to even consider God. So it really made me start to examine what we were preaching and what was our method of getting people converted -- was our method of salvation the right way? So this little preacher got up and said, 'The church is irrelevant,' and then said, 'we believe the cure for the ills of our society is for us evangelical Protestant pastors to return to ancient liturgy and sacramental theology.' I had no idea what he was talking about. I thought, 'We have to do what?'
"My friend next to me said, 'Oh, no, he's talking about C-C-C-Catholicism.' That pastor proceeded to spend the next hour and fifteen minutes telling us why he said what he said, and it so disturbed me, because I knew in my heart he was on to something true, but my head was giving me fits. It went against everything I believed. So we gave ourselves the next two years just to study and read the early Church fathers. We realized how much we had lost in the Reformation, and made a vow to try to take all our congregations and restore everything that was lost. No small task. We started to call ourselves 'ancient historical Christians', which of course is nothing other than Catholic. After trying many other alternatives (such as the Episcopal church) my wife Sherry and I decided to become Catholic. We needed a pope -- to be in line with Peter."
In a post-Vatican II climate, in which the word "renewal" can equate to a watering down of the faith, what does the word mean to you?
"Well, the first thing that comes to mind is, 'What needs to be renewed?' and 'Why does anybody need renewal?' When I was a Protestant we used the word 'revival'. We believed we needed reviving because we've gone cold and indifferent and spiritually dead, and at one time the faith was on fire and vibrant and alive. So that's what renewal and revival means to me. The Scriptures say, 'Can these dry bones live again,' and give examples of breathing on something that's become a dead formalistic mental exercise and is not alive spiritually anymore."
Do you think this kind of renewal is at the heart of what was called for by Vatican II?
"I think the Vatican Council was about this renewal. Of course I'm a new kid on the block, and have heard a lot of controversy about the second Vatican Council, and I've seen some great things that have come supposedly as a result of it, and some not so great things. But what I find out about those not so great things is that those were things that were never intended by the Council anyway. So a misapplication and a misinterpretation have happened. I will go on record saying I believe with all my heart that the Second Vatican Council is the voice of God to the Church. It is the magisterium. There's no arguing with that. How it's implemented though -- people get involved, men get involved.... Without being uncharitable, I can say some men with their own agendas came out of the council and tried to use the phrase, 'in the spirit of the second Vatican Council ... we have to change, etc, etc.... ' I think the Council was God's way of trying to bring renewal to the Church in the twenty-first century. I have to say, all the things I read about Catholicism -- the rubrics of the mass, the silence of the sacred space, the kneelers and the formality of dress -- it was all so refreshing to me. But when I actually saw the typical Catholic churches, it was very different. If I had walked into a modern, updated, liberal Catholic parish I would never have become Catholic. Because it's so much like the Protestant environment that I left. I was looking for structure, and respect for the sacred, and love for the holy, and we didn't have it. And many parishes, I'm afraid, have become just like that "in the spirit of Vatican II" of making the church a "gathering space" -- even though it is still sacred space we don't act like it is. So I think some things have been very detrimental to the faith and have even caused tens of thousands of Catholics to walk out and lose their faith. And again, that's not the Council's fault but just the statistics. Of the thirty-three percent of Catholics who still attend mass regularly, sixty-six percent no longer believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. This is the crisis in the church, not pedophilia. This loss of faith in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist -- that's the very doctrine that changed my whole life and caused my conversion, because all the Church's teachings flow from that doctrine."
Do you see the same need for a return to sacramental theology that you saw in the Protestant congregations?
"Absolutely. Dr. (Scott) Hahn says, 'We must evangelize the baptized first.' Evangelization has to start among our own people. And it's happening. There were about two hundred Protestant pastors that came into the Church the year I converted, and I heard two weeks ago that there are four hundred and seventy-nine Protestant pastors coming into the Church this year. So what's the Lord up to? He loves the Church. It's not going to die or fall apart. He promised that, but it may go through some real reviving and renewing and changing, and God is bringing hundreds of Protestant pastors, the leaders of Protestant Christianity, back home, to the roots of their own faith even as Christians. So it looks like the Holy Spirit is up to something."
Do you think there's a need to be especially careful when you are trying to make Catholic truths digestible to the average layperson?
"Yes, you have to be very careful. Most of us -- we converted pastors -- are not theologians, we're not experts, we learned just enough about the Church to know it was the truth. And what most of us try to share are just the things we know that changed our lives. There are many topics I will not touch. I cannot teach on a particular doctrine if I'm not educated in it. The things that I know according to Scripture, and that we can prove historically about the Church being the Church that Jesus started, I have no problem preaching up a storm on those kinds of things. But every teacher, apologist, or catechist has to be very careful. You try to make the faith as understandable as you can while avoiding any danger of heresy."
Do you feel that your call is to evangelize to the baptized first by sharing your story?
"By sharing my story, yes, but more importantly through apologetics. Why do we believe what we believe? You must be able to give an answer to anyone that asks you. Saint Peter said, 'You must be able at all times to give a reason for the hope that lies in you.' So first the baptized must be taught their own faith, and then taught how to answer criticisms of that faith from non-Catholic Christians who are very misinformed about the faith just like I was. And a kind answer turns away wrath -- you've got to be filled with love and with charity, but you have to know the faith. When it comes to those who have no faith at all, you need to ask yourself, 'Do I know how to share the love of Christ with them? Can I convince them of their need for God and salvation?' Can you love them into the Kingdom? God does the converting, we don't convert anybody. Our job is to be the best Catholics we can be. My job is not to tell you what to believe but to explain the faith. Then you must decide what you believe."
A most excellent post.
In Matthew, did not Christ himself tell the cured leper to show himself to the priest and present the offering Moses commanded, if he didn’t consider it right for legal observance in a holy place?
You could say the need to be pronounced clean by a priest is because the person couldn’t re-enter society without it;
The law must be obeyed (again, only a priest can declare this);
To provide a witness.
You could also say that Our Lord was showing he followed the law;
So that the priests would not persist in their unbelief;
Or just making it possible the former leper could enter society.
In any case, there are specific offerings in Leviticus to be offered, we assume it was the temple... and not the backyard.
Luke 4:15-20 may need some explaining as well.
By word or letter Iscool.
When have you been to a Catholic Church? To attend Mass?
From my experience it is the Independant Baptist Churches that have the most problems with Catholics. They seem to have competition in who can be the most vehement and uptight!
Bless em all
Mel
I'm not surprised - but - how many of them are former priests and religious? Each year, there are hundreds of former Protestant ministers that convert; some even bring in their parishioners.
Yes, I attended a Catholic Mass...
Why not? Knowledge is timeless. You quote scripture that dates back much farther.
Twinkie, if a young woman is under extreme pressure to fulfill her mama and papa's dream of becoming a bride, and this becomes known, she would not be permitted to receive Matrimony until it was determined that she (and her husband-to-be) were truly getting married of their own free will. The same is true of Holy Orders: you simply are not permitted to receive this sacrament if you are under coercion from anybody else.
Moreover, most candidates for the priesthood complete 4 years of seminary (6 years, if they didn't have any pre-seminary advanced education, e.g. at a university) before they are ordained a Deacon, and then sometimes 6-12 months before becoming a priest. During this whole process there are plenty of opportunities to talk things out, and if it comes out that this is mama and papa's choice rather than yours --- or if you're not sure you're called to celibacy --- you don't get ordained.
Moreover, at present there are 22 Churches that comprise the Catholic Church, and 21 of the 22 ordain, as a norm, married men.
So, what were you saying about "priests are DISALLOWED to marry"? Please.
The New York Times (believe me, no friend of the Catholic Church) did an independent analysis of all the records involving priestly abuse in the U.S. Catholic Church. The NYT study found that 1.8% of the priests had been accused of abuse over the past 50 years.
I'd like to make two points about this figure:
The Catholic Bible begins with the Book of Genesis and ends with the Book of Revelation.
"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One!
There is but one throne in heaven on which sits Jesus Christ. He created the universe and spoke to Abraham. He is the one who directed how worship was to be offered. We are a Trinitarian Church - 3 persons in one God.
Okay, maybe a lack of manners but mostly conceit IMHO, it is like they are saying “Come read my post, it is soooooooo good!” They need to call attention to their posts.
I’m late to the party here...
My former parish hosted Mr Cumbie a couple years ago for a seminar. I didn’t really care for it anyways, but by the end it was all about turning the whole group into pentacostals. All they cared about was speaking in tongues, including polluting the Mass with it. Went over well in the SF Bay area, but this diocese wasn’t exactly the most adherent to tradition (or the liturgy in general) anyways.
Now perhaps I should read the rest of this thread.
Jesus was preaching to the JEWS, UNDER THE LAW as the coming Messiah...
The adopted Gentile church (of which many of us are members of) was still in the future...And had the Jews accepted their Messiah, the Gentile church would never have happened...
Point is, we are not under the law...We do not need to show ourselves to the priest...There are no priests...The veil to the holy place has been ripped wide open...We have access to God without a priest...And it's not a building...It's not an organization...
Luke 4:15-20 may need some explaining as well.
Jesus was an Orthodox, observant, law abiding Jew...He was revealing Himself as the Messiah...He was ready to fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah 61...
Did you read Isaiah 61??? There is no church as we know it...
What you read in Luke 4:15-20 has exactly zero to do with the Gentile church...
And so does the Protestant bible...At least we have one thing in common...But it's one thing to own a bible, and it's quite another to read it...
And to understand it, you have to divide it...
Up to the the time of Moses, were the people bound by the 10 commandments??? How about after Jesus died on the cross and the Gospel was preached to the Gentiles???
I love that! Funny, but so right on. You remind me of a few other ladies I know, also Catholics in happy, good marriages with large families. These people are a joy to be around, some have handicapped kids, but that doesn’t hardly come into the picture, they are all loving and giving and alive. There is wisdom in what you say about large families.
I’m more like Flannery, ill, alone and almost housebound, too literary and read too much - one must be careful that knowledge or even ‘torment’ does not become a sort of vanity. However, even with such a different perspective, I still feel as you do, that the Church does make me happy.
I’m sorry you’re not well. I know I’m extremely fortunate to have outrageous good health, and a large batch of healthy children. Even in my grandparents’ day (1930’s), I could have expected two or three to have died, already.
Literature is a great gift, but it can get us caught up in ourselves. I often feel that, whatever else might be going wrong with my left, it all fades when I walk into the church. Not only am I right there with the Lord, but if I seem less chirpy than usual, someone will say, “You look tired. Can I help?” or “You seem sad. Let me pray for you.”
My parish really is home - and that’s been true of all the parishes we’ve attended, no matter where we lived. The Church puts everything into perspective.
I looked at your family photos...delightful!
Thank you! We didn’t have a current digital picture of Vlad, my little sweetheart, but that’s what the rest of us look like.
Anoreth’s magenta hair has faded :-). It was a Hallowe’en costume that got out of hand.
The t-shirt that James has in your family photo, should be owned by every boy. My middle great-nephew Daymon has one and it fits him so well!
And you look great!!!!
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