Posted on 03/05/2008 8:13:07 PM PST by Dajjal
It is probably more correct to say the series of Crusades during the 11th and 13th century served to solidify Islam. Let's give credit to the various Popes for that.
You wrote:
“I believe he actually found that quote in a site which has since dissapeared.”
Nope.
“Such hate sites come and go on a regular basis.”
Nope. There are few if any “hate Protestant” websites in this world.
“In his eagerness to post anti-Protestant hate trash he didn’t do due dilligence to verify the source.”
Yes, actually I did. I, after all, went through all of Luther’s works years ago. All of them. All 50 some odd volumes (in English mind you). And I located the exact quote myself, and still have a photocopy of it. I didn’t see any point to looking it up in my old file cabinets, so I used one from online, but I knew what the quote was and how it went so I knew good info from bad. I went and fetched the old folder.
Here we go:
Martin Luther, Luther’s Works, Vol. 35, Word and Sacrament I, edited by E. Theodore Bachmann, General Editor Helmut T. Lehmann, Muhlenberg Press/Philadelphia (the university library call number by the way is BR 330.E5 1955 v.35 and the computer scan number, in case you’re interested, is R00007 07084).
On page 181 we find “On Translating: an Open Letter” which was actually address to Wenceslaus Link (the footnote, #1, explains who he was – “formerly dean of the theological faculty at Wittenberg and successor to Staupitz as vicar-general of the Augustinian Order, as a close friend of Luther…”).
Again, you would know all of this if you had simply done the research like I did.
But we continue:
On page 185 you see this in the last paragraph that appears on the page beginning four lines from the bottom, right above footnotes #20 and 21:
“But to return to the matter in hand! If your papist wants to make so much fuss about the word sola (alone) tell him this, “Dr. Martin Luther will have it so, and says that a papist and an ass are the same thing.” Sic volo, sic jubeo; sit pro ratione voluntas. We…
On to tope of page 186 - …are not going to be the pupils and disciples of the papists, but their masters and judges.”
So, of course, I was completely right. The only element missing was the “But to return to the matter in hand!” which is set off as a separate sentence.
You wrote:
“How so? Islam was well established long before Martin Luther came on the scene.”
True, and that isn’t what I said either. I said “threat”. I don’t care about Muslims living in the Muslim world so much as I care about Muslims KILLING OUTSIDE the Muslim world. Would Muslims be as aggressive as they are if there was a united Christendom to oppose them? No. Even Luther knew this and was willing to put down Protestant disputes with the H.R.E. Carlos in order to fight the Turks.
“The Reformation had nothing whatsoever to do with the rise of Islam.”
“Threat” is not “rise”. I said “threat”.
“It is probably more correct to say the series of Crusades during the 11th and 13th century served to solidify Islam.”
Incorrect. All you can say is that it “re-solidified” Islam and even that is untrue. Only those in the Levant were united because of the pressure put on them by crusaders.
“Let’s give credit to the various Popes for that.”
Well, since we know Protestants will never do anything to stop Islam’s spread that’s fine with me. Better to have tried and failed than to have spawned relativism and idifferentism as did Protestantism.
yep, there were words in there not appropriate for Sunday school.
Lol!
True!
Using GOOGLE I found only one site which matched your quote:
Luther Quote
The site has dissapeared. Far from being "common knowledge" as you claim, it is a one of a kind which no longer exists. Do you wonder why?
No, for two reasons. 1) I didn’t find it originally at a website that has disappeared. I originally came across the quote in Luther’s own works. It too may have been translated slightly differently, but it too read as I put it.
I asked for your source. Why didn't you reference the "work" of Luther you quoted? Rather, you referenced a site which, after a fashion" paraphrases your "quote".
And since you deny being a Protestant, I don’t see why that would matter to you anyway. Are you now amending that earlier claim of yours?
Truth is important to me. What claim of mine are you speaking of? Reference please.
May I ask one more time? Do you know the difference between a quotation and a paraphrase?
You wrote:
“You have quotation marks around this statement. You do know what a quote is don’t you”
Yes, and I used the same quote twice. There was a prefetory sentence (unimportant) and a following sentence (unimportant) in the longer version. But the sentences agree in content exactly on what Luther actually said about the word alone and the pope. You demand a quote, a proof of a quote and yet you actually refuse to look at the quotes and see they are entirely the same on the point at issue. Why is that? What are you afraid of?
“Using GOOGLE I found only one site which matched your quote:”
I am not surprised you couldn’t find it. I had no problem whatsoever in finding it, however. Please note, I originally saw it in the works of Luther (in English translation) and photocopied it. That was in the summer of 1995. I still have the file and posted the info here. Did you see it yet?
“Luther Quote The site has dissapeared. Far from being “common knowledge” as you claim, it is a one of a kind which no longer exists. Do you wonder why?”
I said the quote was common knowledge to historians and it is - at least those who studied Luther. Also, I didn’t get the web version of the quote from the site you listed. Funny enough, I got it from a pro-Protestant blog! That’s why it is so funny to see you struggle desparetly to claim it’s from somewhere else! Nope. It isn’t.
“I asked for your source. Why didn’t you reference the “work” of Luther you quoted?”
I referenced a published book. That is better than a website. It is less likely to be dismissed by a desperate Protestant apologist. You are still refusing to admit that the words in question are genuine and were actually written by Luther. No, instead, you’re trying to say there’s an issue with a shorter version of the quote and your failure to find it on the internet. I found it - and easily enough.
“Rather, you referenced a site which, after a fashion” paraphrases your “quote”.”
No. It is the same quote. There is no paraphrase. They are two different translations of the same quote. One has two more sentences than the other, but only before and after the words at issue. The quotes are EXACTLY THE SAME in content, and only slightly different in word rendering. They say the EXACT SAME THING. Why can’t you just admit it and move on?
“Truth is important to me. What claim of mine are you speaking of? Reference please.”
No. Why should I post any reference for you when you will pretend they are different, don’t agree even though they do, are from a website that doesn’t exist, blah, blah, blah.
“May I ask one more time? Do you know the difference between a quotation and a paraphrase?”
SHOW ME how the quotes differ in content. When you see, and prove they agree exactly in content about the word alone and the popes what will you do?
You wrote:
“One small problem; this is not the “quotation” you originally posted.”
Show me the differences in the two statements as effect the content about “alone” and popes.
When you then show that they agree 100% as to what Luther said, what will you do then?
You wrote:
“Since you have no idea or, worse yet, don’t care what a quotation is I can’t help you.”
You can’t show me how the quotes are different because they are the same about the word “alone” and popes.
Rather than deal with what the quote actually said, you complained you didn’t know where it came from. I showed you a source. You claimed it came from somewhere else and you continued to do so. You even claimed it came from a dead website. If it was dead, then how did I get it? In reality I first learned of the quote by actually reading Luther’s works and photocopying the pages. I posted that evidence and you, of course, completely ignored it without even making a comment. And the version of the quote I used in the first place here was from a pro-Reformation blog and not an anti-Protestant website. There are few if any anti-Protestant websites.
I’ll scale down the one quote to the same material as the other:
“If your papist wants to make so much fuss about the word sola (alone) tell him this, “Dr. Martin Luther will have it so, and says that a papist and an ass are the same thing.” Sic volo, sic jubeo; sit pro ratione voluntas.
“If your new papist makes much ado about the word ‘alone’ just say straight out to him: ‘Dr. Luther will have it so, and says, papist and donkey are one and the same things; thus I will and am determined to have it; my will is the reason’.”
In content the quotes are EXACTLY THE SAME.
Strange how you never once even commented on what the quote means - even after proven to be true from two published sources!
At one time, he was. What do you think "Lucifer" means?
I know what it means. He’s not holy now
AMEN, Dr. E. Excellent post. Thanks for the ping.
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