Posted on 03/15/2008 10:17:55 AM PDT by big'ol_freeper
Or a supposed change of heart and some formulaic recitation of such to be re-born in Christ.
I've never heard of such a thing.
Have you ever though that perhaps Luther’s Catholic roots were showing on this one?
From what I've read, Luther's hatred of Jews developed after he failed to convert them.
So whenever either of you post the when's and where's of Hitler's excommunication (presumably before his death) - please ping me.
A rarely-used component of Irving's Law has been invoked. The entire thread is forfeit.
Interesting. I never saw that invoked on the “Hitler’s Pope” threads and/or posts. I guess it must only be selectively applied.
Yes, the northern states did vote for Hitler, and the southern states voted for the Catholic party (or they were excommunicated for voting for Hitler).
But there were a lot of Lutheran pastors who died fighting against the Nazi's. My personal hero Bonhoeffer for example. There were also a lot of Catholics who liked Hitler, and many who worked with him. Some of our Orthodox friends here will attest to that. Heck, even Himmler was a daily mass Catholic until he decided that the Aryan race religion was more appealing. (See “Order of the Death's Head”, a good book on the history and formation of the SS.). The sad thing was that many Germans, Catholic, Lutheran, Reformed, even a few Jews (at first anyway) really like Hitler and worked with him. Many didn't see, or didn't want to see, what was going on.
Another fact is that by the time the Nazi's consolidated their rule, the state was putting a lot of pressure on all the Christian churches to go along, or else. The Catholics didn't fair that well either, and many of the priests and pastors went along to get along. If you read the records of the time, the State Church had basically stopped being Christian and became a semi pagan blood religion.
I am not sure why you are doing this. It seems that FR has become once again a place where confessional caucuses accuse each other of being the devil. If I wanted, I could find far worse statements of Catholic clergy about the Jews than what Luther wrote. But as it is Holy week, I will let this slide. For now.
And congratulations. Once, a few years ago, I had hoped that some sort of reconciliation between the Roman Catholic Church and some Lutheran Synods could be worked out. Now, to be honest, I don't think it will ever be. People here have convinced me of that. We have stopped looking at each other over rifle sights, but it seems that the more devout members would love to do that again.
I am not sure why you are doing this right now. It would be impolite to speculate.
1) "A MORAL RECKONING: THE ROLE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE HOLOCAUST AND ITS UNFULFILLED DUTY OF REPAIR" by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen (Knopf)
2) "THE POPES AGAINST THE JEWS: THE VATICAN'S ROLE IN THE RISE OF MODERN ANTI-SEMITISM by David I. Kertzer (Knopf)
Try again.
You can't know a man's position with God the moment he died. As a result, prayers are considered helpful to get a person out of the state of “purgatory” and this is why Catholics do this.
If you really cared about God and Hitler, you'd be praying for him. Which “saint” is it that would most help Hitler? Be a good Catholic and get started.
Try again.
According to Vladimir998 (I thought that was you—do tell us if it's not or you've entered another person's body):
Adolf Hitler left the Catholic faith when he was a young man, and was, in fact, excommunicated twice.
9 posted on 03/15/2008 12:44:18 PM CDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1986216/posts?page=9#9
And a few minutes later you are stating:
“There’s no evidence he ever accepted those teachings once let alone twice. 1) we have no evidence at all - NONE - about any particular strong devotion on his part when he was young and we know he renounced the faith when a young man. 2) He persecuted the faith and undermined it every chance he got.
Clearly he was not Catholic.”
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1986216/posts?page=21#21
So, are we to understand that:
A) Hitler actually was a Catholic—twice, and was excommunicated twice
B) Hitler was only a Catholic once, excommunicated, and then re-excommunicated because the Pope didn't think the first one stuck with God
C) You have multiple personalities and can't keep your words straight
Which one is correct?
Try again.
Hitler was excommunicated ipso facto. An example today is someone who procures or participates in an abortion falls in that category. The Church rarely formally excommunicates as excommunication is a rehabilitation tool. I am fairly confident the Church did not look up Hitler as someone who could be rehabilitated...(puts him in the same category as Nancy Pelosi actually).
Other than being baptized in the Catholic Church, he never progressed through any other sacraments (first communion, confirmation etc.) as his family never attended Mass before or after the baptism. Technically he was baptized Catholic but was he Catholic...not so much.
The same happened in Geneva when Calvin opened the doors of the city to the Jews.
The first excommunication took place when he was a young man and was self-imposed,
The second took place when all Nazis were excommunicated by the German bishops in the early 1930s.
They were different kinds of excommunication.
So Hitler can be excommunicated “AFTER THE FACT” (his death?) but not prayed out of Purgatory??
That doesn’t sound very nice or consistent. Vlad, are you reading this??
For what it’s worth:
Two books that give “the other side of the story” (Both published by Concordia Publishing House, St. Louis) -
1. Lutherans Against Hitler - The Untold Story, by Dr. Lowell C. Green, adjunct professor of history at State University of New York at Buffalo.
For decades, Lutherans have been accused of a passivistic response to Adolf Hitler and the Third Reich. In this careful analysis of those involved in the church’s struggle under Hitler, Green seeks to set history straight. He identifies how Confessional Lutherans faced Nazi threats and survived to uphold the faith of Luther in the country of his birth. Green addresses both the successful statements against Hitler’s regime, such as the Bethel Confession, and hte divisive documents, such as the Barmen Declaration, that sundered any hope of a coordinated Lutheran, and indeed Christian, resistance to the Nazis. Readers will also discover the stories of courageous church leaders who prevented the Nazis from absorbing Lutheran Churches into the Reich Church.
2. The Fabricated Luther - Refuting Nazi Connections and Other Myths, by Dr. Uwe Siemon-Netto, director, Concordia Seminary Institute on Lay Vocation, St. Louis, Missouri. He is a frequent contributor to magazines, journals, and newspapers on culture and religion.
The cliche that Martin Luther was the spiritual ancestor of Adolf Hitler was prominent following World War II, most notably in the work of journalist William Shirer. Scholars joined the bandwagon, mining Luther’s writings for perceived connections between the great reformer and the mastermind of the Holocaust. Uwe Siemon-Netto exposes this connection as unfounded cliche thinking as he points readers to Luther’s true descendants - men such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Carl Goerdeler, and those who brought down the Berlin Wall through prayers and candlelight.
You wrote:
“All he needed in the bunker was a priest, a wafer, some wine, and say a couple of Hail Mary’s and he went right to Heaven. (Isn’t that what Rome teaches?)”
Would you claim that all he needed to do was believe in Jesus and he’d go to heaven no matter how many Jews or Gypsies or priests he murdered? Or would you at least assume a man like that probably lacked any real faith?
No, no Catholic, has ever taught all he needed in the bunker was a priest, a wafer, some wine, and say a couple of Hail Mary’s and he’d go right to Heaven.
You can’t self-impose an “excommunication”. You can break with that church, but they excommunicate you.
Try again.
Excommunication (defined):
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+excommunication
It’s beginning to look like option “C”.
That only works if you actually get to purgatory.
If you get to the Bad Place, no amount of praying gets you out.
You wrote:
“I’ve got evidence for Pope Gregory XIII was the one who conspired to murder Queen Elizabeth.”
1) I, for my part, can’t consider the tyrannicide of a murderess like Elizabeth a murder.
2) Can you actually find a reputable source with documentation that shows Gregory XIII conspired to murder Elizabeth? Your “source”, Linda Alchin, shows no actual evidence and just makes an assertion. Who were the conspirators? What are the documentary sources?
Nope.
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