Posted on 03/15/2008 10:17:55 AM PDT by big'ol_freeper
Please explain these: http://somareview.com/mostfamouschristian.cfm
http://www.leondegrelle.org/theenigmaofhitler.html
http://www.ronaldbrucemeyer.com/rants/0420a-almanac.htm
No. Ipso facto is a Latin phrase, directly translated as “by the deed itself”. Just as someone is automatically excommunicated for procuring or participating in an abortion, der Fuhrer was automatically excommunicated by his acts.
Look a few posts above. I found the necessary documentation on the net, still in German, sometime ago. How good is your German? Use that at google and you’ll find it.
Okay, but you can't seriously argue that other branches of Christianity didn't at one time or another preach similar views about Jews.
Protestants did vote more solidly for the Nazis in the early 30s. There wasn't a large "Protestant Party" analogous to the Catholic Centre Party, and the old middle class liberal parties had collapsed.
But if you look at Nazi leaders and enthusiasts, you find many of them came from Catholic Bavaria and Austria, as Hitler himself did. They had a passion that the more phlegmatic and conformist Northerners lacked.
While Catholics may believe in purgatory, I do not think the formal church teaches this. Help with this issue anyone?
Thank you. If I can find those it will make for an interesting counter-perspective.
I don't see how Hitler was anymore a catholic than he relied on Luther. There was a lot of persecution prior to the separation of Church and State and the Jews got more than their fair share of it, but after the persecution was more the product of a secular state.
Link from the Vatican website of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
"A rehabilitation tool!?! LOL. More like a hit in the head with a shovel before kicking the body into a fresh grave. Excommunication deprives the person of the sacraments which Rome tells us are the means by which men are saved. No sacraments/no salvation.
But it's understandable some of us might be confused by the term. Just look at the pages and pages New Advent offers...
Since excommunication is the forfeiture of the spiritual privileges of ecclesiastical society, all those, but those only, can be excommunicated who, by any right whatsoever, belong to this society. Consequently excommunication can be inflicted only on baptized and living persons. Although the Church recites against the devil exorcisms in which the word anathema occurs, he cannot be excommunicated, for he in no way belongs to the Church. Among living persons, those who have not been baptized have never been members of the Christian society and therefore cannot be deprived of spiritual benefits to which they have never had a right; in this way, infidels, pagans, Mohammedans, and Jews, though outside of the Church, are not excommunicated. As the baptized cease, at death, to belong to the Church Militant, the dead cannot be excommunicated. Of course, strictly speaking, after the demise of a Christian person, it may be officially declared that such person incurred excommunication during his lifetime. Quite in the same sense he may be absolved after his death; indeed, the Roman Ritual contains the rite for absolving an excommunicated person already dead (Tit. III, cap. iv: Ritus absolvendi excommunicatum jam mortuum). However, these sentences or absolutions concern only the effects of excommunication, notably ecclesiastical burial. With the foregoing exceptions, all who have been baptized are liable to excommunication, even those who have never belonged to the true Church, since by their baptism they are really her subjects, though of course rebellious ones. Moreover, the Church excommunicates not only those who abandon the true faith to embrace schism or heresy, but likewise the members of heretical and schismatic communities who have been born therein. As to the latter, however, it is not question of personal excommunication; the censure overtakes them in their corporate capacity, as members of a community in revolt against the true Church of Jesus Christ. Catholics, on the contrary, cannot be excommunicated unless for some personal, grievously offensive act. Here, therefore, it is necessary to state with precision the conditions under which this penalty is incurred. Just as exile presupposes a crime, excommunication presupposes a grievous external fault. Not only would it be wrong for a Christian to be punished without having committed a punishable act, but justice demands a proportion between the offence and the penalty; hence the most serious of spiritual chastisements, i.e. forfeiture of all the privileges common to Christians, is inconceivable unless for a grave fault. Moreover, in order to fall within the jurisdiction of the forum externum, which alone can inflict excommunication, this fault must be external. Internal failings, e.g. doubts entertained against the Catholic Faith, cannot incur excommunication. Note, however, that by external fault is not necessarily meant a public one; an occult external fault calls forth occult excommunication, but in foro interno, as already seen. Most authors add that the offence must be consummated, i.e. complete and perfected in its kind (in genere suo), unless the legislator have ordained otherwise. This, however, is a rule of interpretation rather than a real condition for the incurring of censure, and is tantamount to saying that attempt at a crime does not entail the penalty meted out to the crime itself, but that if the legislator declares that he wishes to punish even the attempt, excommunication is incurred (cf. Const. "Apost. Sedis", III, 1, for attempt at marriage on part of clerics in major orders)......IV. WHO CAN BE EXCOMMUNICATED?
Yeesh.
According to the RCC, Hitler's baptism made him a Roman Catholic and a member of the church of God. Period.
Good catch. I stand corrected!
Yes.
Hitler was excommunicated automatically, during his lifetime, many, many times.
Among other things, his troops, almost certainly on his orders, shot hundreds of priests in Poland after the war started.
That's good for hundreds of excommunications right there.
In Hitler's case, it's kind of irrelevant whether he was excommunicated once or a million times -- he was not a communicant in the first place. (As far as is known, he did not attend Mass or receive the Eucharist after his middle teen years.)
Hitler claiming he "was a Catholic and would remain one" may have been technically true -- an excommunicate Catholic is still a Catholic.
However, he also stated before friends that he was a "pure heathen". That sounds like a formal defection from the Faith, which would make him not a Catholic anymore.
In general, Hitler told people what he wanted them to hear. He lied early and often. Moreover, who is and isn't a Catholic, and what kind of standing they're in, are determined by the Church and her laws, not by the individual's claims. (cf the ladies in St. Louis claiming to be "Catholic priests").
As far as him going to purgatory, you seem to think that Catholics believe that anyone who dies a Catholic goes to purgatory. Wrong. Someone who dies in the state of grace goes to purgatory. Someone guilty of millions of murders, his own suicide, and who knows what else, who dies unrepentant of those crimes, is not in the state of grace.
The existence of purgatory, its purpose, and the claim that those in it can be helped by the "suffrages" (prayers and good works) of the faithful on earth is de fide Catholic dogma.
New Advent goes to great lengths to inform us of the RCC catechism which states that no one can be excommunicated after they die.
Sort of.
See post 70.
You wrote:
“It was you who stated Hitler had a TWO TIME acceptance.”
Incorrect. That was stated to me by you. See post #17.
“So, insisting that a one-time can muster being prayed out of “Purgatory” is not apparently relevant.”
I have no idea what you’re even trying to say.
“You can’t know a man’s position with God the moment he died.”
I don’t have to. It’s not my job. Divinity is way above my pay grade.
“As a result, prayers are considered helpful to get a person out of the state of “purgatory” and this is why Catholics do this.”
No. We pray for those in purgatory. We do not pray for those we have no reason to believe will never, EVER, go to heaven. Purgatory is a cleansing. It is not a second chance.
“If you really cared about God and Hitler, you’d be praying for him. Which “saint” is it that would most help Hitler? Be a good Catholic and get started.”
Why would I pray for a man who rejected God even at the time of his death? He chose to accept what I can’t reverse. He chose the way of death.
“According to Vladimir998 (I thought that was you—do tell us if it’s not or you’ve entered another person’s body):
Adolf Hitler left the Catholic faith when he was a young man, and was, in fact, excommunicated twice.”
Yes, he was excommunicated twice. The excommunication were of different kinds and thus do not reflect a return to the faith and a subsequent second excommunication but are merely two DIFFERENT excommunications. Again, we see that anti-Catholic flail mightily to attack and attack what they clearly haven’t even attempted to understand.
“And a few minutes later you are stating:
“There’s no evidence he ever accepted those teachings once let alone twice. 1) we have no evidence at all - NONE - about any particular strong devotion on his part when he was young and we know he renounced the faith when a young man. 2) He persecuted the faith and undermined it every chance he got. Clearly he was not Catholic.”
And I was absolutely 100% right both times and in both posts.
1) There is no evidence Hitler was ever a dedicated Catholic as an adult.
2) By his actions and beliefs Hitler excommunicated himself as a young man.
3) Hitler, as were all Nazis, was excommunicated by the German bishops in the early 1930s.
Hitler, therefore, just as I said, was not a Catholic at anytime in his full adult life. AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. Hitler left the faith when he was a young man.
“So, are we to understand that:A) Hitler actually was a Catholic—twice, and was excommunicated twice”
No. Hitler was baptized into the faith, but we have no evidence he ever took it to heart even as a youth. And we know he abandoned the practice and faith of Christianity as a young man. He was first self-excommunicated as a young man and later excommunicated as a Nazis in the early 1930s.
This isn’t hard to understand. A knowledge of history on your part would help.
“B) Hitler was only a Catholic once, excommunicated, and then re-excommunicated because the Pope didn’t think the first one stuck with God
C) You have multiple personalities and can’t keep your words straight”
I have been right all along. The problem is entirely yours. Nothing I have said is even confusing let alone inaccurate or in error.
“Which one is correct?”
What I have written is correct. Think. Try it for once in your life.
“Try again.”
Clearly I need not try again since I have been 100% correct all along. You can’t even understand these simple issue so I doubt trying it again will help you.
Why not study some history and actually come back when you know something?
Amen. Thanks for the two book suggestions. Two more good ones are...
1) "A MORAL RECKONING: THE ROLE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE HOLOCAUST AND ITS UNFULFILLED DUTY OF REPAIR" by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen (Knopf)
2) "THE POPES AGAINST THE JEWS: THE VATICAN'S ROLE IN THE RISE OF MODERN ANTI-SEMITISM by David I. Kertzer (Knopf)
I stand by my statement. It is used as a rehabilitation tool. Separating someone from the sacraments necessary for eternal salvation is a definite wake up call, the purpose of which is to bring the person back into the Church once they repent.
And I am sorry if the words were to big for you. *grin*
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