Righteous Gentiles: How Pius XII And the Catholic Church Saved Half a Million Jews from the Nazis
Posted on 03/15/2008 10:17:55 AM PDT by big'ol_freeper
More than once during these talks I referred to Luther and what always occurred to me as his destructive influence. I pointed out that even in such an admirable book as Rohan Butler's “The Roots of National Socialism” the spiritual origins of Nazism and Luther's influence had not been given the necessary importance. Then I was asked if I would be prepared to elaborate to them—about a dozen of the very senior boys, that is—my own views on Luther and Lutheranism. I agreed—with the proviso that they would be my own views and nothing else. Admittedly, I had read more on Luther and about Luther than on most other subjects. But I wanted to make it quite clear that I would not speak to them with the voice of a great authority, but would merely give them my own interpretation. I told them, moreover, that I should try to prove how dangerous it is to accept legends; and that the picture I had of Luther and his influence was thoroughly contradictory of the customary Luther of the legend.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicapologetics.info ...
People can be judged guilty of heresy, etc., after they're dead.
But it would make no sense to excommunicate someone after they're dead. An excommunication is formally depriving someone of their right to receive the sacraments. Dead people don't receive sacraments; sacraments are only for the living.
post 69 beat you to it. ;^)
True enough.
You wrote:
“You can’t self-impose an “excommunication”. You can break with that church, but they excommunicate you.”
You CAN self-impose excommunication. It’s called latae sententiae.
Try again.
What it is beginning to look like is that you have no idea of what you’re talking about.
So Catholics hate Luther. Who didn’t know that. The fact that they’d blame Luther for Hitler (born a Catholic, although they will deny that) shouldn’t suprize anybody.
Like, for example, Rabbi Dalin's book?
So repentence is of no importance? He need not stop killing Jews? He just needs to believe in Jesus, right? That’s what you’re claiming?
Now, you’ll admit he has to repent right? Now you’ll admit he has to at least stop murdering people left and right or else there’s no reason to think he actually had faith, right?
Thanks for proving my point.
You wrote:
“According to the RCC, Hitler’s baptism made him a Roman Catholic and a member of the church of God. Period.”
According to the Catholic Church, Hitler’s sinful life and paganism cut his relationship with God and His Church. Period.
And the same would be true for any other man who lived as he did.
And, indeed, Pius XII ordered German Catholics not to oppose Hitler. No prelate of any influence in Germany did so, even after the June 1934 Blood Purge that took the lives of several Catholic leaders. The wartime Pope made only mild and highly generalized protests against any Nazi actions and pretty much acquiesced in Hitler's treatment of the Jews, about which Pius had a pretty good idea...""He (Hitler) was baptized a Catholic, attended a monastery school early in life, and was a communicant and altar boy as a youth. During his years as Chancellor and then dictator of Nazi Germany, he was never excommunicated or condemned, even though the Vatican knew much of his policies and activities. The only major complaints from Rome regarded interference in Church matters. And those were largely silenced by the 1933 Concordat with the Vatican, under Pope Pius XII, which to Hitler meant that the Catholic Church recognized the Nazi state.
The Concordat was signed in 1933. "Mein Kampf" was written a full eight years earlier in 1925.
No one can plead ignorance of Hitler's intentions.
You wrote:
“So Catholics hate Luther. Who didn’t know that.”
Me. I’m Catholic and I can’t say I know of anyone who hates him so much as hates what he did.
“The fact that they’d blame Luther for Hitler (born a Catholic, although they will deny that) shouldn’t suprize anybody.”
No one here denies both Luther and Hitler were baptized Catholics.
Maybe you should actually read the posts, huh?
I believe that is what my statement said if you read it. He was Catholic by his baptism. But he was excommunicated latae sententiae.
Interesting that so many want to make the thread about Catholicism when the thread is about Martin Luther creating a culture open to Nazism. I have only seen a couple of posts attempting to refute what the author has to say. I realize in most cases posters have never actually read what the author proposes and are posting knee-jerk responses like “Hitler was a Catholic” and “the Pope was Nazi supporter”, but I would have expected a bit more about why the guy is wrong from some of the more learned religion posters.
That's almost comical. Why read something that might challenge one's beliefs?
This has become a “I know what you are, but what am I” thread.
You pushed a stick into a wasp nest and they react like insects.
No, purgatory is a Scripture-denying, Christ-rebuking fiction.
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." -- Hebrews 10:8-18"Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
LOL..you have a point my friend. I was just thinking about counting the number of straw men set up to avoid the topic of the thread...but I guess wasps (no pun intended) can build nests in straw men too.
~Besides hijacking a thread about Luther’s influence on Nazis.....
Nothing like changing the topic to avoid the point.
So every Catholic who sins is automatically excommunicated by their very act of sin?
That doesn’t make any sense. I bet there are a bunch of Catholics who would argue a sin does not, by its commission, excommunicate you.
I’ll read Dalin’s book and you read one of the two books I offered.
Opus’s paternal family was from Munich, were Lutheran, and supported Hitler! There are still two Opus relatives in Munich today.
Not something to crow about naturally: I never knew them. Seems that a lot of people who otherwise would have been nice neighbors went collectively insane.
There’s something called evil out there and it can infect people.
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