LOGIC AND THE FOUNDATIONS OF PROTESTANTISM

The Coming Home Network ^ | Brian W. Harrison

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind words.

[papertyger]

There is no problem.

I have no problem.

You, on the other hand, have to find the Old Testament verse explaining Lk 2:29 to maintain your man-made doctrine defining "The Word of God."

[thefrankbaum]

One of the questions I've always had with reasoning like this (I'm being quite sincere here) is how it can be reconciled with 2 things.

1) Creation, as a whole, has order. That is observable every day. Furthermore, it has a hierarchy - the food chain is but the most obvious example. Even individuals within a specific group have a certain hierarchy - the Alpha Male of a Lion Pride is, for lack of a better term, top dog. This is the same as in humans - a family has (normally) a head, a leader. In most cases, this is the father, or grandfather. Mothers and grandmothers have many important roles, and in many cases are the behind the scenes head of house (I think of a sign my mom has - "The Rooster rules the Roost - but I rule the Rooster"). However, there is a distinct order is all levels of Creation - why would His Body not be the same?

2) The image used consistantly in the Bible is that of the "Kingdom of God." Kingdoms, even in Jesus's day, had specific roles and levels for its subjects. It follows that, in the Heavenly Kingdom, there would be a variety of posts, of offices. Not everyone can share the same office. Now, I agree that earthly Kingdom's are corrupt by our very nature. However, Plato's Republic provides an example of the "perfect" Kingdom - when the rulers can know what is best for the whole Polis and seek to achieve it. Each member of the Polis must follow the lead of the rulers in achieving that good. Each member is equal in dignity to the others, but has a very specific role - I see the Chuch in the same light.

Sorry if this is rushed or somewhat incoherent - I need to run but I really wanted to throw this your way and hear your responses. If you need anything clarified, please ask!

[Quix]

The trouble is that the Holy Spirit Himself is an extra-Biblical authority as much as a Pope or Council.

This is one of the most appalling displays of ignorance I have seen in writing-and I mean this in the most kindness sense.

These articles are all the same...."the Bible is the inspired word of God, but we don't really know what is inspired...except that we do know what was inspired...but what we mean is the Church knows what was inspired...except the Church didn't know what was inspired until we confirmed what was inspired at Trent then everyone knew what was inspired although what we were quoting from as inspired was inspired until the Church officially said that stuff wasn't inspired..."

Ad infinitum... It is almost laughable if it was so serious. And this comes from the "great thinkers" of the Church??? Claiming to be wise, they become fools.

INDEED. THANKS Harley

[Petronski]

Is it just me or is it tooooo early for another edition of this nonsense?

It IS far too early for another edition of this nonsense, but you just keep posting it!

[Quix]

Nutty cults never start out being nutty.

Perhaps often technically true.

But the RC edifice nutty cult sure turned that way rather rapidly . . . not long after rearing it's head in AD 300-400 in various lording it over other Christians of the era . . . and it's gotten worse and worse and nuttier and nuttier ever since.

[Petronski]

"the Bible is the inspired word of God, but we don't really know what is inspired...except that we do know what was inspired...but what we mean is the Church knows what was inspired...except the Church didn't know what was inspired until we confirmed what was inspired at Trent then everyone knew what was inspired although what we were quoting from as inspired was inspired until the Church officially said that stuff wasn't inspired..."

Your paraphrase indicates you did not understand the article at all, or that you wish to obfuscate it for others.

[Petronski]

Actually, the Bible is older than the Church--than Christianity itself, even. The Hebrew Bible . . .

Ahhh, there's the switch. The Hebrew Bible is not the entire Bible, merely the Old Testament of the Bible.

[Petronski]

Calvin's excellent article in Chapter 7 of the Institutes.

Traditions of Men

[Quix]

Something seems to have been lost through the replies . . .

Perhaps an ammended amplified version will help improve accuracy:

The affirmation of the Canon of Scripture was NOT a product of the political power-mongering NUTTY CULT RC EDIFICE RELIGIONISTS in Rome so politically, power mongeringly successful at lording it over all the other Christian serfs of that era. It was a result of God's moving amongst more or less all the loose association of the more or less spiritually equal congregations of that era to formally affirm the Canon.

[HarleyD]

How can the Scripture self-authenticate a claim it doesn't make for itself?

Did you read Calvin's section 7 of the Institutes? Here is an excerpt:

We ought to remember what I said a bit ago: credibility of doctrine is not established until we are persuaded beyond doubt that God is its Author. Thus, the highest proof of Scripture derives in general from the fact that God in person speaks in it. The prophets and apostles do not boast either of their keenness or of anything that obtains credit for them as they speak; nor do they dwell upon rational proofs. Rather, they bring forward God’s holy name, that by it the whole world may be brought into obedience to him. Now we ought to see how apparent it is not only by plausible opinion but by clear truth that they do not call upon God’s name heedlessly or falsely. If we desire to provide in the best way for our consciences — that they may not be perpetually beset by the instability of doubt or vacillation, and that they may not also boggle at the smallest quibbles — we ought to seek our conviction in a higher place than human reasons, judgments, or conjectures, that is, in the secret testimony of the Spirit. True, if we wished to proceed by arguments, we might advance many things that would easily prove — if there is any god in heaven — that the law, the prophets, and the gospel come from him. Indeed, ever so learned men, endowed with the highest judgment, rise up in opposition and bring to bear and display all their mental powers in this debate. Yet, unless they become hardened to the point of hopeless impudence, this confession will be wrested from them: that they see manifest signs of God speaking in Scripture. From this it is clear that the teaching of Scripture is from heaven. And a little later we shall see that all the books of Sacred Scripture far surpass all other writings. Yes, if we turn pure eyes and upright senses toward it, the majesty of God will immediately come to view, subdue our bold rejection, and compel us to obey. Yet they who strive to build up firm faith in Scripture through disputation are doing things backwards. For my part, although I do not excel either in great dexterity or eloquence, if I were struggling against the most crafty sort of despisers of God, who seek to appear shrewd and witty in disparaging Scripture, I am confident it would not be difficult for me to silence their clamorous voices. And if it were a useful labor to refute their cavils, I would with no great trouble shatter the boasts they mutter in their lurking places. But even if anyone clears God’s Sacred Word from man’s evil speaking, he will not at once imprint upon their hearts that certainty which piety requires. Since for unbelieving men religion seems to stand by opinion alone, they, in order not to believe anything foolishly or lightly, both wish and demand rational proof that Moses and the prophets spoke divinely. But I reply: the testimony of the Spirit is more excellent than all reason. For as God alone is a fit witness of himself in his Word, so also the Word will not find acceptance in men’s hearts before it is sealed by the inward testimony of the Spirit. The same Spirit, therefore, who has spoken through the mouths of the prophets must penetrate into our hearts to persuade us that they faithfully proclaimed what had been divinely commanded. Isaiah very aptly expresses this connection in these words: “My Spirit which is in you, and the words that I have put in your mouth, and the mouths of your offspring, shall never fail” Isaiah 59:21 p.].

Some good folk are annoyed that a clear proof is not ready at hand when the impious, unpunished, murmur against God’s Word. As if the Spirit were not called both “seal” and “guarantee” 2 Corinthians 1:22] for confirming the faith of the godly; because until he illumines their minds, they ever waver among many doubts!

Let this point therefore stand: that those whom the Holy Spirit has inwardly taught truly rest upon Scripture, and that Scripture indeed is self-authenticated; hence, it is not right to subject it to proof and reasoning. And the certainty it deserves with us, it attains by the testimony of the Spirit. For even if it wins reverence for itself by its own majesty, it seriously affects us only when it is sealed upon our hearts through the Spirit. Therefore, illumined by his power, we believe neither by our own nor by anyone else’s judgment that Scripture is from God; but above human judgment we affirm with utter certainty (just as if we were gazing upon the majesty of God himself) that it has flowed to us from the very mouth of God by the ministry of men.

The summary of this argument is that no matter what reasoning man may try to propose, it is the word of God that convicts a man's heart of sin, righteousness and of judgment. People can argue about the authority of the Church all day long, but unless they believe the word of God, then they're really not Christians. The only reason they believe in Christianity is because of the word of God. That is how the word of God is self-authenicating.

[Quix]

Not paying attention is insufficient excuse for not remembering that this thread was

BEGUN

by another outrageous article from the nutty cult of the RC edifice.

[Petronski]

Fascinating . . .

instead of actual response, more insult.

[Petronski]

Perhaps an ammended amplified version will help improve accuracy:

Turns out, not so much.

[blue-duncan]

“You, on the other hand, have to find the Old Testament verse explaining Lk 2:29”

It’s called “fulfilled prophecy” and is part of the reason why, like the Bereans, we believe that the scriptures are the self-authenticating word of God.

[Petronski]

Your question was not answered. Instead, the reader is referred to a repeat of a contorted excerpt from the Traditions of Men.

Too bad so sad.

[Quix]

How can the Scripture self-authenticate a claim it doesn't make for itself?

Wellllllllll, in contrast to the fallen angel/ watcher/ fallen nephilium/ counterfeit 'miracles' scripted, structured and engineered to deceive earnest simple believers a la 101 hoaxed stuff vis a vis the Magnificent Magical Earth Mother Mary archetype . . .

God Almighty via HIS HOLY SPIRIT enters this time and space in dramatic beyond natural ways to affirm His prophetic utterances with bona fide, authentic GODLY miracles and fulfillments. What was that listing on the other thread--over 300 Messianic prophecies. I don't recall how many have already been fulfilled. And the rest are on the near horizon.

But I can understand that the !!!!TRADITION!!!! bound, political power mongering nutty cult RC edifice has a difficult time keeping up with AUTHENTIC miracles making such a hoopla so chronically over the counterfeit.

[HarleyD]

Your paraphrase indicates you did not understand the article at all, or that you wish to obfuscate it for others.

I have heard this argument many times from many sources. The early church fathers never had a problem understanding what the core sets of inspirational scriptures were.

Since you feel that I'm "obfuscating" the issue, can you explain to me and our readers precisely the difference between the inspired scriptures and the writings of the fathers? Specifically it would be beneficial to know how the inspired scriptures and traditional writings are used to formulate doctrine such as Mary's ascension into heaven or purgatory.

[Quix]

INDEED.

[Petronski]

I have heard this argument many times from many sources.

And yet you ever understood it. Amazing.