Our Journey Home

My first contact with a priest was just two years ago. While working on my Doctorate at Oral Roberts University I met Father Amalor Vima from India. As class mates we spent a good deal of time together and became close friends. It was in this environment that something happened that would revolutionized my life forever. During a reflective moment in one of our sessions, Selmar Quayo, a Methodist Bishop from Brazil, stood to his feet and said: "In my country, as a Protestant, I am in the minority. Unfortunately, there is much animosity between our church and the Catholic Church. Many of my people are filled with bitterness toward all Catholics. Yet here, Father Vima is in the minority and I’ve seen nothing from his life but the love of Jesus Christ." With tears running down his face he said, "Father Vima, I want you to forgive me."

I watched as these two men of God embraced. There was not a dry eye in the room. In that one brief moment my mind began to envision a new possibility—Protestants and Catholics all over the world coming together, embracing in love, and dropping to their knees in prayer.

In this simple act Selmar Quayo had challenged all of us to become ministers of reconciliation. My thoughts raced. "Imagine what the Holy Spirit could do if Catholics and Protestants really were one."The words of Jesus flashed through my mind, "If you are offering your gift at the altar and remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift" (Matt 5:23-24). As I watched the scene unfold I could almost hear Jesus praying, "May all of them be one, Father . . . that the world may believe that you have sent me" (John 17:21). I knew at that moment I must become a minister of reconciliation.

Years earlier Joetta and I had ministered at a Southern Baptist Church in Tulsa, Oklahoma. After the service, a woman came up to Joetta and asked her if she would pray for her daughter, Regan. She did not, however, want to divulge the specific prayer need. Joetta assured her that it wasn’t necessary to know the need because the Holy Spirit would intercede for Regan. For the next year, Joetta prayed faithfully for a young lady she had never met.

At that time Joetta was working as a Technical Writer for Thrifty Rent-A-Car. One day, her boss informed her that they had hired a new Software Trainer and were going to put her in the cubicle across from Joetta’s. They asked Joetta to make her feel welcome and to show her around. When the new trainer arrived, she introduced herself as Regan. To Joetta’s surprise, here stood the young lady she had been praying for all those months! God was definitely up to something. Joetta and Regan worked as associates over the next seven years. Although they never socialized outside of the work place, they began to develop a close relationship.

One day in 1995, Regan shared that she and her husband were having problems in their marriage. Kelvin was a Roman Catholic, and she was a Southern Baptist. For several years, Regan attended the Catholic Church off and on with Kelvin and although he did not fell comfortable in the Baptist Church he would attend with Regan on special occasions. This arrangement worked, until they had children and realized how strongly they both felt about how their children should be raised. To Regan’s chagrin Kelvin was adamant about baptizing and raising their children in the Catholic Church. They were at an impasse when Regan came to Joetta for advice.

Joetta told Regan that a house divided cannot stand, and that it was essential that they be in church together. Joetta suggested that, if her husband would not go to church with her, she should go to church with him. God would bless their marriage if Regan would submit to the spiritual authority of her husband. Joetta informed Regan of some classes held by the Catholic Church which she could attend, without obligation, to learn about the Catholic faith. Joetta said, "If I were you, I would want to know what my children were going to be taught, so that I could counter any incorrect teaching." For Regan’s peace of mind, Joetta said, "You go through the program, bring all of the material to me, and I’ll give it to Larry so that he can check it out and see if it is Scripturally sound."

I never paid any attention to the material Regan gave Joetta, except for two things. One was a newspaper article by a Lutheran journalist discussing Marian apparitions. The author of the article had spoken at Regan’s church and told how the Mother of God had been appearing to six young children daily since 1981. Regan was so intrigued she read everything she could get her hands on. The second thing she gave us was a cassette by a woman who had been miraculously healed at the same apparition site. This woman, a nominal Christian at best, was so impacted by the experience that she committed her life to serving Christ. I took these items and started to throw them away. On a whim I stuck them in a drawer instead.

The week prior to May 25, 1996, Regan told Joetta that she was going to a Marian conference in Wichita, Kansas. She was really excited about it because both the author of the article and the woman who had been healed were featured speakers. Regan, however, was bothered by a prayer she had received in the pre-conference material that supposedly would be prayed at the conference. "I would like," she told Joetta, "for you and Larry to look it over and see what you think." As Joetta read the prayer, all kinds of red flags went up. In almost a state of panic she brought the prayer to me. It was the Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. As I began to read the prayer the hair on the back of my neck stood straight up. "Immaculate Heart of Mary, I give to you my body and soul . . . ." I stopped in mid sentence. Rage filled my heart. "This prayer is demonic!" I said, "You don’t give your soul to anyone but Jesus. Tell Regan she can go to the Conference but whatever she does don’t pray that prayer." Within three days, something deep within my spirit told me I had made a terrible mistake. Remorse for what I had said flooded my soul.

I decided to take a copy of the prayer to Fr. Vima, "I don’t understand this prayer," I said. "How in the world can you give yourself to Mary in this way?" With a twinkle in his eye Fr. Vima gently said, "Larry, have you ever held Joetta in your arms and said, ‘I love you, I adore you, I worship the ground you walk on’?" "Yes," I cautiously replied. "Have you looked lovingly into her eyes and assured her of your complete love and devotion? Have you spoken words like, ‘I am completely yours now and forever’? ‘All that I am and all that I ever hope to be is yours.’?" I was beginning to get his point. "If the truth were known," I admitted, "I’ve used those exact words."

"Catholics," he continued, "would never say of Mary, ‘We adore you.’ We venerate her. We honor her. But, we would never say ‘we adore you’ because adoration is reserved only for God. It is something we give only to Jesus. We adore Him. He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and there is no one like Him. We believe that Mary, as the Mother of God, loves and cares for us. What we’re saying in this prayer is, ‘All of me, I place in your hands and I ask you to take me to your son, Jesus.’ Mary always points to Jesus."

As I listened to Fr. Vima I began to realize how wrong I had been. Two emotions flooded over me simultaneously—shame and joy. Shame for my quick assessment, and joy at the possibilities that were opening up.

I went home and found the Marian newspaper I had put in one of my dresser drawers and begin to read. As I read what Mary was reported as saying I was struck by how biblically based her messages were—pray, repent, fast, commit your life to Christ. This was obviously not the work of Satan. I wondered out loud, "Could this really be the Mother of God." If it were, than what she said was important and worthy of our consideration. One of her more frequent statements was somewhat puzzling: "Pray the Rosary every day." Joetta and I knew nothing about the Rosary. Perhaps it was time to discover what this prayer was all about.

As Regan was leaving for the Marian conference, Joetta gave her some money to buy a Rosary. Their relationship had become strained, and sometimes emotionally charged because of Mary, and Joetta felt that if she let Regan show her how to ray the Rosary, it would at least keep them dialoguing. When Regan gave Joetta her Rosary, she said, "What’s great is that the man who made this Rosary lives just outside Tulsa, in Claremore, Oklahoma. If there’s ever a problem with the Rosary, it is guaranteed."

The more closely that Joetta looked at her Rosary, the less she liked the centerpiece. "It looks like an idol. I think I’ll call Two Hearts Rosaries and see if they’ll exchange it for something else."

"Come on out," the voice on the other end of the line said, "Bob’s work is guaranteed, and he will be happy to replace it with something you like." When we arrived, Bob’s wife Johanna asked Joetta what was wrong with the Rosary. "It’s the centerpiece," Joetta said, "I don’t like the centerpiece." Johanna looked at her quizzically, "What about it don’t you like?" "Wellit looks too, you know, Catholic!"

"The Rosary," Johanna smiled, "is Catholic!" While Joetta looked at centerpieces, Bob was sharing with me what had happened to them on a pilgrimage to an apparition site in Europe. I yelled at Joetta, "Come in here and listen to this. You won’t believe this story!" These were the first real Catholics that we had ever spent any time with, other than Sister Monica Marie and Fr. Vima.

Bob shared with us how God through Mary had transformed their lives. As he told their story, tears rolled down his face. He said he hasn’t stopped crying since he got back from their pilgrimage. In his words, his heart "just turned to mush." When they got back, Bob went in and quit his job at Amoco. He was a laboratory technician and had been with the company for over 21 years. Not too long after that, Johanna quit her job at Tulsa University. God was calling them to complete obedience and dependence upon him.

During this time, Bob met a nun who showed him how to make Rosaries. Bob decided to make two Rosaries: one to thank Mary for leading him to Jesus, and one to thank Jesus for saving his soul. The rest is history. All of Bob’s rosaries are lovingly hand-made. He sees each bead as a prayer sent out by Mary to convert and bring souls to Jesus. Joetta’s and my conversion are the direct result of those prayers.

After our meeting with Bob and Johanna, I was emotionally shaken. As we drove away neither of us said a word. It was as if we had experienced an epiphany. I can’t explain it. I felt like I had been in the presence of Jesus. Not wanting to go right home I pulled into a Taco Bueno to get something to drink. As we sat there looking at each other tears began to stream down our faces. What was happening to us? What was God asking of us?

Our lives were literally being pushed toward the Catholic Church. Regan had introduced us to the owners of the local Catholic bookstore, so we decided to go there for more information. Lee and Anita lovingly welcomed us and pointed us to exactly what we needed. When we figured our income tax at the end of that year, we discovered that we had spent over $5,000 on books, cassettes, videos, and other materials in search of spiritual truths! We couldn’t get enough. We were in Lee’s store three and four times a day. "We’re here for our Catholic fix." Lee and Anita would just laugh and point us to another book, cassette, or video. It was like an addiction that we couldn’t get satisfied. One question just led to another and another. It was a wonderful experience.

We began going to bed later and waking up earlier trying to jam as much reading into the day as possible. We decided to maximize our time. I began taking Joetta to work and picking her up so that we could read out loud coming and going. I would pick her up for lunch, put a couple of lawn chairs and TV trays in the trunk and drive to a park so that we could read without interruptions. We took turns—one would eat while the other would read out loud. We did everything together. God was graciously speaking to us together. Drawing us at the same pace deeper into himself.

We read the Catechism from cover to cover. The Catechism is the greatest systematic theological work we have ever read. Answers to long sought after questions were coming like torrential showers.

I remember one Saturday morning in particular. We both woke up about 4 o’clock in the morning. We sat up in bed with our Bibles in one hand and Catechisms in the other. I would say, "Joetta, listen to this. This is fantastic. This just brings everything into focus!" Before I would finish, Joetta would interrupt and say, "Larry, wait, wait. Listen to this!" She would then read from a different section of the Catechism. We would read supporting scripture verses, go to the writings of the Early Church Fathers and then check a commentary. Before we knew it, it was 1 o’clock in the afternoon! We were like sponges. Issues such as the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine, the role of Mary in the Church, prayers to the saints, Scripture and Tradition as authoritative vs. Sola Scriptura, Papal authority, Purgatory, and Salvation as a process vs. Salvation as a completed work we began to see in a whole new light. It was like finding all the lost pieces in a huge theological puzzle. The full picture was becoming clear.

The Lord was taking us down two paths simultaneously: one intellectual and the other emotional. We had been praying the Rosary, and parking ourselves on Bob and Johanna’s sofa, asking question after question about Catholic doctrine, tradition, and culture. We asked God to somehow reveal to us if He was drawing us to the Catholic Church, because none of this made any sense to us. We had spent all of our lives in Protestant churches and were quite content in our ministry. We desperately needed to know about the Church to which God was calling us, so three short weeks into our conversion I prayed this prayer. "Father, if you are drawing us into the Catholic Church, I want a sign, and I want it big."

Several days later, we were coming home from a short trip to Dallas. As we largest, most vivid sun either of us had ever seen. It went from horizon to horizon, and it looked like we were going to drive right into it. An indescribable array of colors—orange, red, and pink. It was magnificent, so much so that our young grandson, who was sleeping in the back set sat up and said, "Grandpa, grandpa, do you see that? Isn’t it beautiful?" As brilliant as it was we could look right at it.

As the sun went down we put in a cassette tape by Dr. Scott Hahn and continued toward Oklahoma City. As I looked into the night sky I prayed again silently, "Oh God, if you’re drawing us into the Catholic Church, give us a sign and please make it big!"

At the same time, unknown to me, Joetta was staring out the passenger window silently praying, "Blessed Mother, if you’re real, we have to know beyond a doubt." Suddenly, I heard Joetta gasp and say, "Oh my, Larry, Larry, look!" As I looked to the right I saw what looked like a chain of stars falling in slow motion at a downward angle from right to left. Just before the stars reached the horizon they shot straight up and then fell back toward the earth again falling right in the center of the highway. Usually a falling star shoots downward and moves so quickly you don’t have time to tell anyone about it. We were speechless, because we both saw it! Finally Joetta broke the silence, "You did see that didn’t you?" We were both visibly shaken.

I put in a cassette by Catholic singer Dana in which she sings through the Rosary, and for the next hour and thirty minutes we prayed the Rosary with her. We finished just as we reached the exit road going toward our parsonage. As we turned under the freeway and went up over a little hill, there, sitting on the road in front of us was the most beautiful, enormous, vivid quarter-moon we had ever seen. Like the sunset, it seemed to literally sit in the middle of the road and extended as high into the sky as we could the sun. For 2 1/2 miles, we watched in total silence.

As we turned into our driveway the moon disappeared. "Joetta, what does all of this remind you of?" "Revelation chapter 12," she said: "‘A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.’" At that moment we knew that the Holy Spirit was not only bringing us to the Catholic Church, but that Mary was leading the way.

Two months later Joetta and I knelt in a small chapel on the University of Tulsa campus and prayed the prayer of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Our love for her is without bounds. I had been afraid that she would somehow take away from my love for Jesus, but what I found was that my love for Christ has deepened beyond measure. Truly our cup runs over!

On September 12, 1997, I surrendered my ordination papers to Bishop Bruce Blake of the United Methodist Church. In doing so, I laid down 30 years of Protestant ministry to become a Catholic. To many of my colleagues, this seemed a horrible mistake, but to Joetta and I, it was "coming home."

In January, we made a pilgrimage to Rome to symbolize our desire to place ourselves under the authority of Pope John Paul II and the Roman Catholic Church. This March, Joetta and I made a pilgrimage to a Marian site in Eastern Europe to thank the Blessed Mother for bringing us into the Church. We now look forward with great anticipation to being received into full communion in the Catholic Church this coming Easter Vigil. This will be the culmination of a 23 month, life transforming odyssey. Thank you Mary for loving us home.

Many may be able to reason with me, but your sarcastic tone and condescension leave you outside of that company.

Wow. I've never run into another Freeper that actually admitted they couldn't be reasoned with if you didn't respect their vanity.

Is that self-effacing honesty, or lack of recognition?

It is pointless anyway, as there is little (I would say "no") standing for your position in the Scriptures

Uhm...what part of the Cana narrative are you not getting? Is that not Scripture?

...and you have already determined to rely upon your traditions... Those same traditions having no weight with me whatsoever.

Okay, so scratch reason, Scripture, and tradition. This is getting tough. There's not much left besides "entertainment."

You will be subjected to the Protestant "insistence that Scripture is the only yardstick of validity", by me and my fellows- A position that offers you no foundation. So why bother?

Hardly, in the final analysis it comes down to which Scriptures you (third person) like, and which you don't.

Jesus only mentions being "born again" twice in the Gospel of John while He mentions eating His Flesh five times, but for some reason Protestants proclaim the former, but ignore the latter. Why?

It would seem that for all the fuss over "traditions of men" the only sticking point is whose traditions, and which men.

Wow. I've never run into another Freeper that actually admitted they couldn't be reasoned with if you didn't respect their vanity.

No, I was implying that those who cannot confine themselves to polite debate, those who would use blunt clubs like sarcasm and condescension against their opponent, have usually done so because their ability to reason has fallen short of the natural ability which others possess. While I can sympathize with such a lack of facility, debates of this nature are unproductive.

Is that self-effacing honesty, or lack of recognition?

I would suppose the latter, though not in me.

Uhm...what part of the Cana narrative are you not getting? Is that not Scripture?

It certainly is, but when viewed without the bias presented in the Catholic tradition, the Wedding at Cana shows no evidence of what you propose is there. I am sure it can be bent to prop up such a thought, though not without an outside source.

Hardly, in the final analysis it comes down to which Scriptures you (third person) like, and which you don't.

The Apocrypha (which I am familiar with, btw) aside, we use the same Scripture. It is the tradition that is in the way. And just so we're clear, I, and many of my fellows do the very same on the Protestant side of the aisle. I have largely rejected Calvin, Wesley, and Luther, whom you all seem to feel are in the way of reconciliation. If anything, the Protestant Reformation did not go far enough.

Jesus only mentions being "born again" twice in the Gospel of John while He mentions eating His Flesh five times, but for some reason Protestants proclaim the former, but ignore the latter. Why?

It is not ignored, it is interpreted differently. Circumcision of the heart is also mentioned throughout the New Testament, yet I have never met a Christian that has insisted it is to be performed physically. Rightly divided, after all, if you would pardon the pun.

It would seem that for all the fuss over "traditions of men" the only sticking point is whose traditions, and which men.

I am of a mind that the only traditions that can rightly be attended to are those found to have foundation within the Scripture itself, and never the other way around. A Protestant idea, I admit.

Gee, that's a pretty complex message to "imply." Are you sure you know what "imply" means?

Furthermore, you have this "polite debate" thing all wrong. You are only entitled to polite debate so long as you practice polite debate. As soon as it becomes clear the debate is actually a campaign, that is a constant restatement of one's position while gratuitiously dismissing the opposing view, any expectation of comity is laughable.

I would suppose the latter, though not in me.

Oh my! The "I know you are, but what am I," gambit.

How witty.

... but when viewed without the bias presented in the Catholic tradition, the Wedding at Cana shows no evidence of what you propose is there.

Of course it does; read the text! What it doesn't do is square with the bias of Protestant tradition, so a thourough exegesis of the text is studiously ignored.

It is not ignored, it is interpreted differently.

Why?

I am of a mind that the only traditions that can rightly be attended to are those found to have foundation within the Scripture itself, and never the other way around.

Which is why I maintain you are engaged in a campaign: not a debate.

Just curious as to your interpretation of Genesis, chapter 3, verses 14-15 (or the common Protestant interpretation).

Who do you think God is referring to when He uses the term "woman," where in my translation (New American Bible) He says to the serpent, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

Enmity is an interesting word. Its definition is as follows: "Enmity is hatred such as might be felt for an enemy: the wartime enmity of the two nations." In other words, complete and total opposition to one another.

The passage cannot be referring to Eve; she had just sinned and was not in complete and total opposition to the serpent (Devil). In Catholic teaching, the woman who would have enmity between herself and the serpent must be without sin.

It is not extra-Biblical from a Catholic perspective, therefore, to believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived immaculately without sin. It is also why in Catholic artwork she is sometimes pictured with a serpent near her feet:

I've always wondered, therefore, what the Protestant interpretation of Genesis 3 and the identity of the "woman" if they do not believe these things about Mary. Perhaps the KJV or its derivatives do not use the term "enmity." I've never owned a KJV myself or even bothered to look it up in one at the bookstore to see what Genesis 3 looks like in one of them.

Then you have a comprehensive description of what "by me" looks like?

Two, two letter words...How comprehensive can it get??? You can't get to the Father unless you go thru the Son...

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

I realize that's not your argument tho...Your argument is that you need (or desire) a mediator between you and Jesus...Problem is, you have no idea whether your mediator has contact with Jesus...

Be a pity to have someone mediate and not have your petitions make it to God...

But I wouldn't waste 10 seconds asking Mary or a 'saint' to mediate between Jesus and me...And here's why...

Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

This doesn't require a comprehensive description either...You can take your petitions right to the One who can grant your petitions...And you do it boldly...

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

It certainly shows...

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Quite a different picture compared to the one you posted...But look at the next verse:

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Still think the woman is Mary???

Thanks for removing me from the ping list.

I welcome prayers of course in the Name of Jesus Christ.

However, if you are praying for my salvation - thank God that by His merciful grace which was GIVEN to me by my wonderful Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ through his atoning death and shed blood on that awful cross and through His victorious resurrection and ascension!!! I am already seated in the heavenlies with Jesus Christ ... AS GOD SAYS IN: Ephesians chapter 2 through Paul:

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

This passage in Ephesians as the one in Colossians as in virtually ever one of he New Testament books places the emphasis on the finished and glorious work of Jesus Christ on behalf of those who are His....and the glorious inheritance of his saints - those who belong to Him.

In other words, the New Testament which others have said that Catholics agree is God’s inerrant Word, abounds - overflows with the good news of the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ, focus being on Jesus Christ, with not one mention of the need to pray to Mary for anything.

This is not using “proof texts” - this is saying the whole weight of the entire New Testament gives no place for the practice of praying to Mary, a mere human, who certainly was blessed to have been chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus Christ and whose simple obedience to God in faith in His plan for her and for her child is a tremendous example to all believers in obeying God with simple, childlike, faith in our everyday lives.

I have always praised God for Mary’s faith and obedience to God. And for Joseph’s obedience as well.

But there is nothing in the entire New Testament which can support praying to Mary or to the saints.

The passage in Colossians warns against going with the “traditions of men” over the gospel of Jesus Christ as put forth by Paul and the other disciples...as the early churches were established.

Sorry hands are not working well this morning ...must go.

But God bless you and all who call upon the name of Jesus Christ in sincerity and truth!

But there is nothing in the entire New Testament which can support praying to Mary or to the saints.

By what logic? A prayer to Mary is a prayer to Christ. For example, the prayer of the Rosary -- the most popular prayer to Mary -- requires a meditation on the events of the Gospel, beggining to end, Nativity to Cross and Resurrection as the following prayer is said repeatingly

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you
blessed art thou among the women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary, Mother of God
pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death, amen

This is interspersed by Our Fathers and

Glory be to the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit
As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end, amen.
Oh, my Jesus, forgive us our sins, saves us from the fires of hell
Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy.

This is how I pray daily, for my family, for the conversion of the Protestants, and for the intentions of the Pope. What is here that you think is contrary to the Scripture?

Gee, that's a pretty complex message to "imply."

I hadn't noticed... I will endeavor to be less complex in my future postings to you.

As soon as it becomes clear the debate is actually a campaign, that is a constant restatement of one's position while gratuitiously dismissing the opposing view, any expectation of comity is laughable.

Hmmm.... Projection?

[Wedding at Cana] Of course it does; read the text! What it doesn't do is square with the bias of Protestant tradition, so a thourough exegesis of the text is studiously ignored.

You are welcome to provide said exegesis by way of a link, or in your own words... You may even get out your crayons and draw me a picture- But this "Is too! / Is not!" debate is unprofitable.

[not ignored ... interpreted differently] Why?

Because there is no need that the "bread physically becomes the flesh". It is (IMHO) a rather tortured extrapolation which isn't necessary. The symbolism suffices, and takes nothing away from the Sacrament of the Communion.

[Foundation in the Word] Which is why I maintain you are engaged in a campaign: not a debate.

Think what you wish. As I have already stated, I am every bit as critical of Protestant traditions as well. I am not interested in fighting over the rites of men. I am interested in rightly dividing the Holy Words of Jehovah. No church, no denomination, no doctrine or dogma can possibly come before that.

If you see error in my way, prove it. It is your duty to do so, and it is my duty to listen with an open heart. But you must prove it upon the Testimony and Witness already laid down by God the Father Almighty.

Perhaps the KJV or its derivatives do not use the term "enmity." I've never owned a KJV myself or even bothered to look it up in one at the bookstore to see what Genesis 3 looks like in one of them.

For your convenience:

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
(e-Sword: KJV)

And might I suggest e-Sword? It is a free and very comprehensive Bible study software suite with many Bible translations, concordances, commentaries, dictionaries and etc. It certainly has been an aid for me, and makes it quite easy to find and post electronically.

Who do you think God is referring to when He uses the term "woman," [...] He says to the serpent, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

In the first place, I would have to note that the text has meaning in it's simplest form, that is to say, that it need not mean anything more than it does on it's face.

Man, and particularly women, have no love for snakes, and are quite happy to dispatch them (bruise head). Snakes are certainly known to strike the heel, or at least the lower leg. Therein the prophetic (God says, "I will") nature of this passage obviously can be considered to have been already fulfilled, and we need not go any farther.

One must also consider prophecy 'in-situ', or within the context of the larger passage, and therefore one is obliged to consider the following verses, Genesis 3:16-17, wherein the woman and Adam are also cursed, as was the serpent in the verse of interest. In it's context, the woman seems to be Eve, as representing all women.

Now, that all being said, this prophecy is widely considered to be the proto-evangelist event. Even before the curse is laid upon Adam and Eve, the Gospel is pronounced, in that the Descendant of woman would vanquish the Serpent. See this rather lengthy Commentary by C.H. Spurgeon I can accept that much of the prophetic word being present, in that it fits thematically with the great breadth of the Prophecy, and is plainly in unison with the Great Plan of God.

Enmity is an interesting word. Its definition is as follows: "Enmity is hatred such as might be felt for an enemy: the wartime enmity of the two nations." In other words, complete and total opposition to one another.

'Enmity' can certainly, and simply mean 'hatred'.

The passage cannot be referring to Eve; she had just sinned and was not in complete and total opposition to the serpent (Devil).

I must disagree. "And I will put enmity..." would suggest the opposition to be placed after the fact. Considering the assumption that Eve is standing as all womankind, receiving the original curse, the enmity can easily be placed upon Eve, and her descendants (male and female) at any time after God's utterance.

In Catholic teaching, the woman who would have enmity between herself and the serpent must be without sin.

That seems to be a leap to me.

It is not extra-Biblical from a Catholic perspective, therefore, to believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived immaculately without sin. It is also why in Catholic artwork she is sometimes pictured with a serpent near her feet:

So the entirety of 'conceived immaculately without sin' is extrapolated from this single verse?

I realize that's not your argument tho...Your argument is that you need (or desire) a mediator between you and Jesus...

Oh Bless God! Thank you.

You have no idea how gratified I am to be treated like a thinking person instead of some Catholic-bot.

I know it's rather hard to tell, but I really do have a deep love for Evangelical Protestant believers. That's where my entire Christian formation came from. Nevertheless, my Catholic convictions come from exactly that: being convinced.

Problem is, you have no idea whether your mediator has contact with Jesus...

But you see, that's our fundamental disagreement. I have every bit as much confidence that "my" mediator has contact with Jesus as you have that Jesus rose from the dead. Both convictions ultimately came from the same source in my estimation. You just don't accept the authority of one of my sources. That does not mean I accept the idea my sources are in any way inferior to yours.

When Protestants argue theology with Catholics on a strictly Scriptural basis, it's like a single person discussing something of great import with a husband, all the while ignoring he has a wife. To treat the husband as another fundamentally single person is to totally miss who he is.

Be a pity to have someone mediate and not have your petitions make it to God...

I think you're getting into a "Can God make a rock so heavy even he can't lift it" assumption here. Catholics don't require a "legal" explaination for everything. We are very comfortable with the concept of "mysteries."

I don't know of any Catholic that seriously thinks God doesn't hear a prayer unless Mary passes it through, even if it was directed to the BVM.

But I wouldn't waste 10 seconds asking Mary or a 'saint' to mediate between Jesus and me...And here's why...This doesn't require a comprehensive description either...You can take your petitions right to the One who can grant your petitions...And you do it boldly...

And while your citation is absolutely on the mark, recognize the Scriptural text presents the "bold approach" as somewhat less than a categorical imperative. I think a fair-minded textual critic would have to permit the possibility the writer's intent is to instill confidence in the reader, rather than give the reader a command.

Presenting oneself before the Lord *should* be a fearful and awe inspiring undertaking as has been recognized by God's people throughout history. Catholics take that very seriously, despite the "boldness" encouraged by the book of Hebrews.

I hadn't noticed...

Poor communicators rarely do.

Piece of advice; next time you want to "imply" a complex idea, don't be so lazy: write it out.

You are welcome to provide said exegesis by way of a link, or in your own words...

I already did that, remember? You just declared it wrong, and proceeded with your campaign.

What other commands of Christ, in your humble opinion, can be rationalized away?

If you see error in my way, prove it.

I see numerous errors in your way, but as for proving them...well, that requires some contribution on your part. There is no more impenetrable barrier to finding truth than the mistaken assumption you already have it.

For my part, I have always tried to remember to ask, no matter what the subject of inquiry, "if I were wrong, how could someone prove it to me?"

Not having an answer to that question guarantees that even if someone does prove I am wrong, I will not recognize that fact, and continue to argue against it.

[You are welcome to provide said exegesis by way of a link, or in your own words...]

I already did that, remember?

I suspect you are referring to this bit:

This thread, #131

Which is why we ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to interceed for us. The Scriptures clearly state Jesus told the BVM "mine hour is not yet come," but He changed the divine plan for His first miracle to accommodate her. NO ONE else in Scripture evinces such a profound influence on the Almighty for such a pedestrian problem.

To which I replied:

This thread, #159

...Or perhaps it is merely the record of his first miracle, wrapped around a young man honoring his mother, in spite of an "Aw, Jeez, Ma..." moment.
Since Mary's intercession is only inferred within the passage, as I am sure you will agree, I would be more comfortable with your interpretation thereof if it could be confirmed 'thematically' elsewhere at the very least.
As an example, we both accept the Trinity, the Triune Godhead, because of evidence of that theme- While there is no direct mention of the Trinity within the scripture, there is a substantial body of scripture that supports the inference.
I am unaware of substantial evidence of Mary's intercessory role, or of the intercession of saints, as a broader theme, within the Scriptures.

Your reply follows:

This thread, #174

No.
I have no intention of kowtowing to sectarian insistence that Scripture is the only yardstick of validity.
I have the witness of this Scripture and Church teaching. That is sufficient.

to which I replied:

This thread, #176

The[n] you may keep it.

You just declared it wrong, and proceeded with your campaign.

I did not, as illustrated above.

You are basing the entirety of the Scriptural foundation for 'Mary's Intercession' upon a single passage, where this supposed ability is not even declared, but only inferred (to be kind).

I did *not* declare it wrong, but asked for more evidence, and not declarative evidence, at that, but only thematic evidence of any sort, provided it was from within the Word. I went on to show an example to help you on your way.

It was only after you flatly refused to provide further evidence, suggesting some undue burden, that I rejected your position. I am more than happy to discuss it even now, but cannot discuss anything, really, on such a poor bit of proof.

What other commands of Christ, in your humble opinion, can be rationalized away?

I might ask to see the scar from your heart being physically circumcised... Have you dug around in your eyeball to find the board within? Did you know that Balaam tied his ass to a tree and walked for 40 miles?

Rightly divided.

Nonsense. I am more than happy to throw my faith upon the altar, and have done so many, many times. I am entirely open to new ideas a whole lot crazier than anything discussed herein, and upon finding proofs within the Scripture, I am happy to ponder the thought, seeking to further my knowledge.

I want the TRUTH, as I have stated before. I have no sacred cows, with the single exception that every single thing will be judged against a single standard- That standard being the Holy Word of God.

If your evidence cannot withstand scrutiny based upon that standard, then we really have no more to say.

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