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Mary and the Problem of Christian Unity
Coming Home Network ^ | Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.

Posted on 04/09/2008 12:36:13 PM PDT by annalex

Mary and the Problem of Christian Unity

By Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.

We are living in a remarkable age. As we approach the third millennium of Christianity in the year 2,000, we are watching a world in extremes. Amid the rapid onslaught of secularization and irreligion, we find hordes of people seeking solace in religion.

Amid the ravages of war and violence, we find the comfort and love of those who care for the poor and disadvantaged. Amid the lightning pace of modern life, we find souls searching for deeper meaning by retreating to monasteries and ashrams for solitude.

Two of the most powerful inspirations in late twentieth century Christianity are the drive toward greater unity among Christians of widely differing backgrounds (ecumenism) and the rapid growth of Marian devotion all around the world. This century has seen unprecedented efforts to bring together Christians who have been separated by misunderstanding and prejudice. And just when the ecumenical movement on a formal level seemed moribund, a new surge of grassroots ecumenism is finding ways of bringing together Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christians. Whatever the outcome of these efforts, the air of this last decade of the second millennium is filled with the scent of Christian unity. It seems that Christians are grasping every opportunity to reconcile their doctrinal differences and to find the sweet savor of "brothers dwelling together in unity" (Ps 133: 1).

If this is an age of ecumenism, it is equally a Marian era because no century since the birth of Christ has witnessed such an outpouring of devotion to the mother of Jesus. As many observers note, reported apparitions and locutions have multiplied, leading numerous Christians to an unprecedented devotion to the humble handmaiden of the Lord who was privileged to bring the world its Redeemer. In tandem with these grassroots movements, there is a monumental effort within the Catholic Church for the Pope to define as dogma Marian doctrines that have long been present in the Church (Mediatrix, Coredemptrix, Advocate). Whether or not the Supreme Pontiff of the Catholic Church decides to act, there is unlikely to be any diminishing of devotion to the mother of Jesus.

On the other hand, many non-Catholic Christians are mystified by such devotion to Mary. Some feel strangely drawn to honor her, but are afraid of falling into excessive focus on Mary to the exclusion of Jesus. To others, Marian devotion borders on the blasphemous. To still others, Catholics are idolaters. It is not an overstatement to say that no expression of historic Christianity has ever placed Mary in such a high position of honor as has the western Catholic tradition. And even though the Eastern Orthodox Churches have long honored Mary as the Mother of God, they do not have fully developed mariologies as the Western Church has.

The juxtaposition of ecumenical and Marian movements seems odd at best. On the surface, it appears that Mary would be the last subject chosen in an ecumenical dialogue. One might think that all the areas on which common agreement might be achieved should be addressed first, and then deal with the thorny question of Marian doctrine. Better to leave Mary until last. However, I am now convinced that questions about Mary must be addressed up front if any true ecumenism is ever to be achieved.

On a purely human level, no genuine friendship can ignore beliefs which are central to one party while those same beliefs are at best questionable to the other. Further, it is not completely honest for Catholics to pretend that Marian doctrines and devotions are not important and central to our lives. We ought to state openly that the Catholic faith does not allow the Church to ever change its defined dogmas about Mary. On the other hand, we must admit that not everything that goes on under the term Marian devotion is necessary or beneficial for the Church.

What can talk about Mary do to promote the cause of ecumenism? The answer depends on what we mean by ecumenism. One definition, and the one most common, sees ecumenism as a process of negotiation between different churches whereby one church gives up some aspect of its faith and the other partner relinquishes its claim to some of its distinctives. This process proceeds through a number of steps until a lowest common denominator is reached. The result is a church or some other official body which has a reduced form of faith and practice so that it might accommodate each respective member. This has largely been the pattern of ecumenism in the United States and the Western world for the better part of this century. In my judgment, such attempts have been a monumental failure. Mary cannot help with this type of ecumenism. The other definition of ecumenism is  not founded on the concept of negotiation, but on seeking together the truth of God’s revelation. It begins with confessing that we don’t apprehend God’s truth completely, and that we must always seek to have the mind of Christ. In this conception, unity of heart and mind does not come from negotiated agreements, but from all parties, recognizing and embracing the objective truth of God.

It is a commonplace that married couples do not achieve success by each giving fifty percent to their marriage, but by each giving one hundred percent of themselves. In the same way, Christian unity comes from full commitment to searching for truth in a spirit of humility. Ecumenism begins with recognizing that unity already exists in God, that Christ is the center of unity, and that the Holy Spirit is the operative agent in bringing Christians together. Mary has everything to do with this kind of ecumenism.

Mary: The Sign of Unity ?
How can Mary help in promoting Christian unity? Many may feel the weight of disunity among Christians and long for a greater oneness in Christ, but can Mary really give us that greater oneness? Mary has been a source of division between Catholics and Protestants for a long time. What good will focusing on Mary bring? How can Christians be one when the very Marian devotions so precious to Catholics are viewed as idolatrous by Protestants? To human eyes, it seems that almost any other Christian doctrine would be better suited to bring unity than doctrines of Mary. And if we think of Mary just as a set of doctrines, that would be true. But Mary is more than a set of doctrines. Mary is a person. She lived her life on this earth as the mother of our Lord with her own character, mind, and idiosyncrasies. These things are true regardless of what we believe about her. Mary is what she is apart from our beliefs.

There is one unmistakable fact that we must remember about the real Mary—the Son of God lived in her womb for nine months. This is how Mary can be an instrument of unity. She united the Logos, the second person of the Trinity, with His human nature in her own body. Mary united more than any human being has ever united. She united God and man in the small confines of her own womb. Ponder this amazing reality. In Mary’s womb, heaven and earth were joined, not as two separate realities, but perfectly united in the one person of the Son of God. No wonder it says that "Mary treasured all these things and pondered them in her heart" (Lk 2:19). It is a reality beyond words.

Mary was the instrument of unity for the body of Jesus Christ and this is why Mary has long been thought of as mother of the church. The church is the body of Christ and Mary was the mother of Christ’s body, both physically and mystically. It is clear from Scripture that Jesus Christ is the key to unity among Christians, but the one Savior Jesus Christ would not be what he is—the perfect God-man—without Mary’s being the means of uniting His divine and human natures in one person.

Mary’s example of obedience and discipleship also forms the foundation of unity. Mary gave herself unreservedly to Jesus her Son. Every Christian wants to be an obedient disciple of our Lord and needs examples of obedience to do so. Mary was filled with grace, and this allowed her to listen to the commands of her God without delay. Mary was on earth what every Christian will become in heaven, filled with grace. Obedience means a readiness to say YES to God, a spirit of humility that says "Let it be" (fiat). Unity cannot be achieved through negotiation. It must come through obedience to the apostolic teaching given by Jesus to Paul and the other apostles. Without a willing spirit, we can never achieve God’s desire for unity. Mary’s life of obedience and discipleship calls us to unity with God through obedience.

The unity we seek is not human but divine. Its source is the divine life of Christ the Redeemer. It is that unity for which He prayed when He said, "Father, that they might be one." This kind of unity doesn’t come from each group of Christians giving up some belief or practice for the sake of unity; it comes from each individual or group submitting to the authority of Christ and from the work of the Holy Spirit bringing oneness where it is humanly impossible. Like salvation itself, Christian unity is not within the grasp of human power. All we can do is open ourselves to the ministry of the Spirit to produce the unity that is impossible through negotiation.

It is because Mary has been such a stumbling block for Christians that a fuller embracing of her person and role will achieve a greater unity than we might expect. If we view Mary apart from Jesus, then Mary cannot help us. Yet she was never meant to be seen apart from her Son. Just as the Magi found Jesus "with his mother" (Mt 2:11), so we find Mary involved with her divine Son, cooperating in His work and plan.

We cannot solve the problem of how to be one in Christ. Not by negotiation, not by one or the other side caving in. But God can solve our problems. God specializes in the impossible, just as He once said to Mary (Lk 1:37). If the Holy Spirit can form within the womb of the Virgin Mary a new entity—the unique Godman—then He surely can bring together Christians divided by history, suspicion and misinformation. Perhaps it’s time for us to stop trying to be unified and let God do what we have failed to do. No one can see precisely how this will happen, but we know it won’t happen without embracing the fullness of salvation in Christ himself.

Mary and the Unity of the Trinity
The unity we seek does not result from negotiated agreements. Our Christian unity must be founded on truth. It must be unity of heart and mind, a permanent oneness that is not shaken by the changing tides of custom and culture. The New Testament concept of unity is nothing less than union with the Holy Trinity. Jesus our Lord prayed that the oneness of His disciples would resemble and flow from the oneness experienced by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit: "That they all may be one, Father, as you are in me and I in you that they may also be one in us" (Jn 17:21). Jesus Christ does not want our unity to be like his and the Father’s. He wants our unity to be the same as He and the Father have. 

Mary is both a sign and an instrument of the unity coming from the Holy Trinity because she bears a unique relation to each member. Let’s see how Mary is related to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. First, however, a word of caution. In A.D. 431 the ancient Christian Church defined Mary as the Mother of God because the Church wanted to protect the full divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ. This title, Mother of God (or better Godbearer), asserted that the child in Mary’s womb was nothing less than fully God and fully man. But the title Mother of God never has been nor should be interpreted to mean that Mary is the mother of the Trinity. Mary bears a distinct relation to each member of the Trinity, but she is not the mother of the Father, nor of the Holy Spirit.

Mary is the daughter of the Father.
When Mary proclaims herself the handmaiden of the Lord (Lk 1:38,48), she is declaring her filial obedience to the will of God. The love she has for the heavenly Father shows itself in her desire to be His vessel of bringing salvation to the world. What better sign of unity than this act of submission to the will of God? If we only follow Mary’s lead, we will find ourselves united in heart as her heart was united with the heavenly Father’s heart.

Mary did not negotiate with God, bargain with Him nor seek a compromise. She acknowledged her dependence on His grace and sought to perform His bidding. The will of the Father is unity for us who profess His Son. We will have unity only when we have submitted ourselves to the Father as Mary did.

Yet Mary is more than a sign. She is an instrument of unity. How is this true? Without her obedience the Savior would not have been born. Some Christians think that if Mary had refused Gabriel’s invitation to bear the Savior, God would have found another woman. There is not the slightest evidence in the New Testament for this view. Mary freely gave herself to God’s will of giving the world its Savior. By her instrumentality Mary united the Father to the world through His Son. In a profound sense, Mary united us to the Father through the Son. And that is how we will find a greater degree of unity today. By seeking to imitate her obedience and by seeking submission to the same Father through the Son she bore.

Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.
Gabriel proclaimed that the Holy Spirit would come over her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her (Lk 1:35). This is the language of marital love (see Ruth 3:9; Zeph 3:17). Mary was united with the third person of the Trinity in order to give flesh to the second person. As the spouse of the Holy Spirit, she gave her body to the service of God so that she might receive the fullness of God. And so Mary is a sign of how we too must seek to be filled with the Holy Spirit to do the will of God (cf Eph 5:18). It is the Holy Spirit who brings Jesus Christ today just as He brought the divine Christ to the womb of Mary (cf. Jn 14:17,18). When we are filled with the Spirit as Mary was, we are united to Jesus and we become more united with one another. Mary’s union with the Holy Spirit brought us the Son who poured out the Spirit that we might be united with both Son and Spirit. Her union brings about our union.

Mary is the mother of the Son.
Through her, Christ’s divine and human natures were united into the one person that would save us from our sins. As Jesus’ mother, Mary signals that our unity will only be in and through her Son. When Paul says that Jesus was "born of a woman ... that we might receive the adoption" (Gal 4:4,5), the apostle implies that true unity comes only from being members of the same family—the same family in which Jesus is the firstborn Son.

We cannot be members of many different families that have a tolerance for one another’s beliefs and worship. No doubt tolerance for cultural and historical differences is essential, but that is still not the New Testament ideal of unity. Unity means being in the same family as Jesus ("one Lord"), having the same content of belief ("one faith"), living in the same Church body ("one baptism"). Only then can we be sure that we have the same "God and Father of all, who is over all, through all and in all." See Ephesians 4:4-6.

Mary: God’s Woman of the Hour
Now is the time for unity among Christians. As we approach the beginning of the third millennium since Christ’s birth, we see an almost unprecedented call to unity. Christian leaders the world over have caught a glimpse of Christ’s will that "they may be one, Father, as you are in me and I in you" (Jn 17:21). The desire for unity is laudable and ought to be pursued with vigor. Yet the only unity worth pursuing, the only unity that will last is the unity that already exists in the Holy Trinity. This kind of unity is not something we achieve. It is something given to us as a gift. This unity is infused in our souls and expressed by oneness of mind and heart (doctrine and love).

Truth without love is barren and sterile. Unity without truth is empty and fruitless. Jesus was a kind and compassionate man who proclaimed the truth. The Lord who wept over Jerusalem’s obstinacy (see Mt 23:37-39), and who was moved with compassion over the "sheep without a shepherd," (Mk 6:34) is the same Lord who said that the truth of His words would not pass away (Lk 21:33). If Jesus is our Lord, then we must follow with equal vigor His truth and love.

Insistence on truth at the expense of unity will not do, nor will embracing unity at the expense of truth. Truth and unity are equally ultimate. Yet even now, we must realize the impossibility of reconciling truth and unity with human schemes and ingenuity. The only way to have unity is by having unity in Truth. The truth that brings unity is Jesus Himself who is "the way, the truth, and the life" (Jn 14:6). The truth Jesus gives is the complete teaching of His will as expressed in and through the Church of the apostles.

The Church is Jesus’ idea and institution; it is part of the will of Jesus. And it is Christ’s Church that wrote and gave us the Holy Scriptures and the truths of faith passed down from generation to generation. Obedience to Jesus means obedience to Jesus’ Church. It is no accident that Christians have spoken of the Church as our mother for centuries. Classic Christianity spoke this way: the one who wants God as a Father must have the Church as a mother. Why is it necessary? Because Jesus is nurturing our faith through our mother, the Church. And that is why Mary is so important.

Jesus is our model but we must remember that even our Lord learned some of His commitment to truth and compassion from His mother. All we have to assume is that Mary lived her own words to see that this is true. She loved truth enough to consent to Gabriel’s invitation to bear the Son of God (Lk 1:38). She was filled with compassion enough to see God’s "mercy from generation to generation" (Lk 1:50). Mary was a woman of truth and love. Her commitment to God’s truth and love lead her to the unity of the Son of God. Her submissive heart that willingly embraced God’s truth and her devoted love for God brought about the unity of Christ’s human and divine natures into the perfect unity of His one divine person.

So Mary’s commitment to truth and unity is both our model and the means of our unity. She modeled our path to unity by her embrace of the divine Son within her womb. We must embrace Him too. Mary is also the means of our having unity because without her act of submission to God we would not have the one Savior who can unify us.

It is time to lay down our defensive postures, to lay aside our personal and political agendas, to give up our dearest visions for the Church and to embrace the complete will of Christ. I believe that if we could simply be like Mary on that day when Gabriel came to her, we could then say with her, "Let it be done to us according to your word" (Lk 1:38). Perhaps, she could say with us:

Lord, we are your servants.
Heal our divisions and
Let Your Son reign as Lord within.
Let Your Word dwell within us
And make us one.

 

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

This article is from Ken’s new book, Mary of Nazareth: Sign and Instrument of Christian Unity. [Queenship Publishing]

 


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism
KEYWORDS:
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To: OpusatFR

Mon Dieu!

201 posted on 04/10/2008 9:45:11 AM PDT by Petronski (Nice job, Hillary. Now go home and get your shine box.)
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To: lastchance
So, Christ as THE EXAMPLE AND MODEL

OF OBEDIENCE, ATTITUDES AND BEHAVIORS TOWARD THE FATHER

was

. . .

. . .

. . .

RC magicsterical drum roll . . .

INADEQUATE?

Mind-bogglingly incrdible.

202 posted on 04/10/2008 9:45:45 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: All


The
Truth
Is
Out
There!

203 posted on 04/10/2008 9:48:31 AM PDT by Petronski (Nice job, Hillary. Now go home and get your shine box.)
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To: Petronski

Certainment, mon ami!

L’avion est brisé et fichu! Kaput!

Boom!

Au revoir. Continuez la grande bataille ! Je dois reprendre trais chez Walmart.


204 posted on 04/10/2008 9:50:48 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: OpusatFR

Pourquoi pas Target?

C’est Francais!

(tar-ZHAY)


205 posted on 04/10/2008 9:51:43 AM PDT by Petronski (Nice job, Hillary. Now go home and get your shine box.)
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To: OpusatFR

LOL!


206 posted on 04/10/2008 9:51:44 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Petronski

Unh...Target...

Puisqu’ils ont tourné ma carte de degré de solvabilité vers le bas la semaine dernière!


207 posted on 04/10/2008 9:53:41 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: AnalogReigns; Truthsearcher; Running On Empty
Absence of evidence doesn’t refute the statement: “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23)

I only explained what the scripture, that you made reference to, says: the fact that Mary had the Savior, from which presence of sin does not follow. The Catohlic Church explains that Mary was made sinless since conception through the superabundant mercy of Christ and not in any other way.

Roman 3:23 is not a prooftext for any individual sinning. In Romans 3 St. Paul talks about the human condition prior and without the sanctifying presence of Christ in general terms. As you yourself mention, the Bible speaks of several people as "perfect in every way" (Noah) or righteous, as Patriarch Joseph. If we take "all" in Roman 3:23 literally, we have to take "righteous" and "perfect in every way" literally also, and have a contradiction. But if we examine the ocntext of romans 3 we find horrifying epithets like "full of cursing and bitterness", with "feet swift to shed blood", bent on "destruction and misery". That cannot apply to everyone, not to Christ Himself, or, for example, the children slaughtered by Herod, or to anyone who the scripture describes as saintly people. We must conclude that "all" in Romans 3:23 is a literary device of generalization and not a prooftext for Mary's sin.

thinking Jesus may have been “out of his mind” (Mark 3:31) shows some serious doubt, and can definitely called sin.

But, significantly, Mary is not among them, -- she shows up later.

Mary, like all of fallen humanity who trust God, was and is utterly dependent on and in union with the grace of God given in Jesus Christ.

Yes, of course. This is what Catholic Mariology teaches. there is no indication whatsoever that either he or Mary believed that in 3 days Jesus would be risen, alive and well

Like you said, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. One can also argue that the weakness of faith that the Apostles have is just that, weakness, but not sin. More importantly, the gospels record the moment when the women went to the tomb to take care of Jesus's body, and Mary was not among them. Why? She was with the apostles following the resurrection. This is an indication that she of all people did not expect the body to be there -- she believed in the resurrection.

If God could make a person sinless in their normal conception (like you say He did with Mary), why in the world would He then send His Son to die for our sins? He could just make everyone have an immaculate conception, and the sin problem would be solved, in one generation

Yes -- this is a deep question. There is no doubt that in terms of ability God could have redeemed everyone at any given time, starting for example, with Noah. But he decided to become incarnate with Mary and not sooner. This points to her beign a high point of the preparation of the Jewish race that the Old Testament tells us about, and to the fundamental reason of her veneration as co-Redeemer.

208 posted on 04/10/2008 10:01:20 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: OpusatFR

I REALLY

SINCERELY

APPRECIATE

your publicing this to a larger readership.

When certain things begin to happen, it will help a lot more people wake up to the real sobering spiritual truths involved.


209 posted on 04/10/2008 10:01:55 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix

No and nowhere did I say that. I was speaking of reasons to emulate Mary in our lives. Is there a preacher or fellow lay Christian you admire. In whose life you see evidence of God’s grace upon a sinner. Does this admiration mean you do not think Christ brings us to the Father?

Christ alone is our Savior, but we are blessed with saints in our lives who by letting the Light of Christ shine in their lives makes it easier for us to find our way to Him.

It is after all His grace alone which can illuminate our life and the lives of others. If a torch is used to light many candles is the fact that I see their light mean I can no longer see the torch?

I see the Glory of God in His creation. Does that mean I can not see Christ? I see the miracle of God in the birth of each child? Does that mean I can not see the miracle of Christ? The lesser always points to the greater. All good in this world whether in persons or in the created order has one purpose. To show us the Truth of God.

Christ died to give us life. Celebrating His grace where ever it is found is one way to say thanks for that.


210 posted on 04/10/2008 10:04:29 AM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: OpusatFR

The points are just as sweet in French.


211 posted on 04/10/2008 10:04:56 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: lastchance

Scripture is rather clear about

INORDINATE

affections.


212 posted on 04/10/2008 10:06:12 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: lastchance

If I could suggest a slight correction to your wonderful tagline . . .

HUG YOUR BABIES, TODDLERS, CHILDREN . . . AND TEACH THEM SUCH THAT WHEN THEY ARE TEENS, THEY’LL LOVE HUGS, TOO.

Life is too short for anything less.

And ATTACHMENT DISORDER IS TOOOOO HORRENDOUS to individuals, families and societies.


213 posted on 04/10/2008 10:07:29 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix

I have to admit once again be puzzled by what you mean?

Perhaps you mistake admiration for those who show total love of Christ in their lives as inordinate affection? Who knows. I worship the Triune God alone so I have no fear of making idols out of mere mortal creation. I never confuse the two. Maybe you do? I like to think not. But since true Worship has long been abandoned by some Protestant sects it does get easier to confuse the two.

By the way do you sing Happy Birthday or say the Pledge of Allegience or tell your family you love them? I wonder how you keep yourself from the sin of inordinate affections in doing so. Is it because you know Christ alone is savior and would never confuse such acts of affection with the great honor and glory due to Him alone?


214 posted on 04/10/2008 10:11:19 AM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: Quix

Thank you for the suggestion. I am a mom and like all parents my children will always be my babies. Though they do tend to get annoyed when I try to burp them after meals.


215 posted on 04/10/2008 10:12:44 AM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: lastchance

Have finally finished breakfast and am determined to haul myself to the carport for my carpentry tasks.

So I won’t respond at length.

I guess I’ll just note that

USURPTION AND DISTRACTION

are very important issues in all this. And, there’s not much likelihood that RC’s and Prottys will see close to eye to eye without some miraculous interventions of Holy Spirit. That happens on an individual case by case basis. But it’s not something one can . . . engineer! Holy Spirit does His thing AS HE WILLS.

All we flawed Prottys can do is play our role as best we can.

The analogy you offer is a bit, to us . . . like saying . . .

Wellllll, imagine that Johnny has been surfing in front of toy boats all morning long. And he asks Dad if he can paddle out further and dart around in front of, play with other boats.

and Dad says—sure, Johnny—the tankers and the QE2 are just boats, too. Have at it. No problem.


216 posted on 04/10/2008 10:18:53 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: lastchance

It is not. It is the literal Greek word for brother, which was sometimes used for other close kin.


217 posted on 04/10/2008 10:19:25 AM PDT by Politicalmom (Better a leftist Dem with energized GOP opposition, than a leftist "Republican" with no opposition.)
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To: lastchance

This is circular reasoning, she is either a co-redeemer as the Catholics claim, or she is one of those redeemed.

She can’t be both, that would imply she can redeem herself.

So what is she, a co-redeemer, or one of the redeemed?


218 posted on 04/10/2008 10:21:09 AM PDT by Truthsearcher
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To: Politicalmom

INDEED.

The RC’s would have us believe that their egregious and quite ‘arbitrary’ (in a sense) insistence that the word meant cousin was the only possible or plausible meaning.

which, actually,

is 180 degrees opposite of THE LINGUISTIC, USAGE FACTS.


219 posted on 04/10/2008 10:24:05 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: annalex; Politicalmom
It says that Jesus had “brothers” and “sisters”. The Bible does not say that Mary was the mother.

Then they would not have been called his "brothers and sisters" because the Greek word for "brother" is "adelphos" which means literally "from the womb [delphus]". In other words, all brothers [adelphos] and sisters [adelphe] came from the same womb -- in this case -- Mary's womb.

In fact, some of those “brothers” are mentioned elsewhere as children of Mary Cleopas.

No -- those would have been his "cousins" [Greek "suggenes"] since they were not from the same womb.

The Bible does not say one way or the other about Mary having other children — a collective of cousins, second cousins, adopted children, etc. would commonly be referred to as “brothers” in antiquity.

No they wouldn't. They all would have been called "cousins or kinfolk" [Greek: "suggenes"]

If Mary had other children, the belief in her perpetual virginity would not have taken hold, as they would certainly be known to the early Christians.

It didn't take hold amongst early Christians, only amongst fiction writers and apocryphal literature.

Yet, the Early Church referred to her systematically as “the Virgin”.

Only until she gave birth to her first born son. After that as "mother" of brothers and sisters.

I'm glad I could help clear up this issue for you.

220 posted on 04/10/2008 10:27:23 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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