Posted on 04/09/2008 12:36:13 PM PDT by annalex
Most excellent post, Uncle Chip. Press on!
Which is why I think it is wonderful you are Protestant. If those beliefs about Mary are a stumbling block to Christ then by all means you must reject those teachings.
Please look up Nestorian heresy. Since you agree with it perhaps you will also like Arian heresy. The two are closely related.
I’m blessed that you can see realities on all sides.
God’s best to you and yours.
I have never known of a Catholic who entertained that kind of sentiment except for the cult that was excommunicated recently.
A most reasonable explanation. With a joyful heart in Christ I thank you for the post.
It’s the distraction away from Christ that is THE important issue. Spot on. It’s as though Marianism is a magnet that the RCC brings close to the compass of Truth, pulling people away from True North. Hard to notice, especially if years and generations are telling you that you’re on the right track.
Ah, yes. The cathedral vs. bazaar argument. We have been here before, you and I.
This is a display of ignorance and rejection of Chrisatian mariological tradition and Mary in the scripture, which in itself shows how there could be no unity without Mary.
I certainly reject the tradition, and any other tradition (to include those of Protestant origin) which has no foundation in the Scripture. The traditions are a reflection of the Scriptures, But it is silly to suppose they have the same authority as that which came directly from the mouths of Christ's apostles.
As to the veracity of the Scriptural claim, I remain unconvinced. Those examples I have been shown are veiled and subject to interpretive endeavors. I remain open to the idea, and you are welcome to convince me with whatever proofs you might find in the Word.
They say it is, and it is called abrahamic religion -- I did not invent the term.
Ye shall know them by their fruits.
There is absolutely no evidence, NONE, NADA, that Mary didn't die and was buried. This stuff about her being raptured into heaven without death is made up myth. This is the sort of stuff that frustrates Protestants with Catholics. We say you worship Mary and you all try to say you don't and then come up with this sort of statement. You have her image in your house, in your car, in your yard, and on the sides of roads in some countries. You pray to her instead of Jesus and say you don't worship her. There isn't one instance in the Bible of Jesus praying to Moses, Ezekiel, Abraham, NOBODY, but God. It is an insult to The sacrifice of Jesus to worship ANYONE or ANYTHING other than Him. To Him, you may as well be falling down before a golden calf.
I'm not saying Mary was a bad person, what I'm saying is she was just a person, no different than you or me.
This opens a question you and I may be faced with in our lifetimes. We may be the generation that will be asked to take a mark to live.( I believe in a pre trib rapture, but that is a nuther argument). If we do we reject Jesus, if we don't we die for Christ. Mary clearly would have NOT taken the mark, as Peter, Paul, Luke, and the rest of the apostles would not have. They dedicated their lives to the spread of the Gospel even unto death and prison. We all have the choice to submit to God or rebel. The same veneration you give Mary are due unknown people in China and Africa that are murdered everyday for the cause of Christ. The Church is doing their jobs daily, but no one makes images of them and prays to them. How would you feel praying to Billy Graham? He's a pretty good guy.
You’re too late. Another RCC watchdog threw that bone at me a few months back. Doesn’t fit, ain’t my view, etc. etc. God didn’t/doesn’t have a mother. Jesus, as the second person in the Trinity, was NOT conceived in Mary’s womb. He inhabited her womb - she carried Him, bore Him in the flesh - but she did not birth God. That notion is absurd.
I didn’t know you lived in a deep Hobbit hole.
>>Further, the statement about “no union with her until she gave birth to a son” makes a specific statement only about the time before His birth, but is silent as to the time afterward.<<
No, it is not silent. Please reread post 169.
Unless you are arguing that Mary and Joseph adopted a lot of kids, you have to participate in some pretty dramatic logical gymnastics to explain away Mary’s children.
IOW, OF COURSE it is talking about Jesus blood relatives. Much of the bible is incredibly straightforward and misguided or disengenuous people have spent entire careers atempting to read information that is simply not there, or worse, try to explain away information that goes against their own pet interpretations.
I see this sort of thing all the time with many of my own Pentacostal brethren. I used to be strongly pre-trib until I studied the issue myself. It was not long before I became Pre-Wrath. And the more I read, from BOTH sides, the more convinced I became.
Interesting that you consider an objective observation to be a "personal assault." Sometimes the truth hurts. You are the one who is blinded by bias. Try removing the plank from your eye before pointing out the splinter in someone else's eye.
Are you saying I’ve been toooooo effectively conditioned by the personal RC assaults?
>>Further, the statement about “no union with her until she gave birth to a son” makes a specific statement only about the time before His birth, but is silent as to the time afterward. Drawing an insinuation from that is speculation and extrapolation.<<
Have any married friends? Do you think it is speculation and extrapolation to assume they are having sex?
This is comical. Of course it is silent! She was a married woman. See what the Word says about marriage and all your questions will be answered.
People so try to over complicate the simple...
So you do not believe that Christ was fully human and fully divine. That He was eternally begotten of the Father?
I do believe Christ is the great I AM and have so stated many times, which makes the RCC pronouncement about Mary being the “Mother of God” so preposterous. How could He have a mother, since He is eternal and the Creator of all things?
I was not speaking of faithful Catholics but of pagans and pseudo Christians. Remember the uproar over the feminist liturgy in the Episcopal Church some years back.
Do you believe Mary gave birth to only the human Christ or did she give Birth to Christ fully human and fully divine. The title Mother of God is about who Christ is first only after that is it about who Mary is.
From the study notes of one of my favorite online bibles regarding Matthew 12: 46-50:
“The issue of whether Jesus had brothers (siblings) has had a long history in the church. Epiphanius, in the 4th century, argued that Mary was a perpetual virgin and had no offspring other than Jesus. Others argued that these brothers were really cousins. Nothing in the text suggests any of this.”
Jesus brothers (really, half-brothers) are mentioned all over the place.
Again, one can read the scriptures as one for whom they were written and the information is very clear, especially when a subject is mentioned over and over again. It is kind of funny really - when one reads a novel and someone is referred to as ones brother, the reader usually correctly assumes the person is the character’s blood brother. Why must people complicate the bible so?
I read Childhoods End. Does that count?
What is your take on crop circles - the real ones,not the hoaxes?
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