Posted on 04/30/2008 7:47:49 AM PDT by Pyro7480
Some Protestants accuse the Catholic Church of having dropped one of the 10 Commandments. "You're idolators! You worship statues! And because you do, your Church dropped the commandment against graven images!"
The truth, of course, is that the Catholic Church did not and could not change the Ten Commandments. Latin Catholics and Protestants simply list them differently. It is incredible that such a pernicious lie could be so easily spread and believed, especially since the truth could easily be determined by just looking into the matter. But the rumor lives.
Now, below are the ways in which Protestants and Roman Catholics enumerate the Commandments:
[See link above or below]
So what the heck? What did happen to the commandment about graven images in the Catholic listing? Did the Church just "drop" a commandment?
Um, no. The Old Testament was around long before the time of the Apostles, and the Decalogue, which is found in three different places in the Bible (Exodus 20 and Exodous 34 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21), has not been changed by the Catholic Church. Chapter and verse divisions are a medieval invention, however, and numbering systems of the Ten Words (Commandments), the manner in which they are grouped, and the "short-hand" used for them, vary among various religious groups. Exodus 20 is the version most often referred to when one speaks of the Ten Commandments, so it will be our reference point here....
ME: ds, veneration is just that, you seem to know the meaning...As Christ said on the cross, ‘behold your mother’, she is the mother of all of us now, the second eve, etc.
and you are to honor your mother as the commandment says (we already honor our father)
veneration doesnt take away, it celebrates the grace that God has instilled into his saints....
and ‘the prayers of a righteous man availeth much’, how much more effective can the prayers be than from his perfected mother in heaven? asking her to pray for me and others is in communion with the angels and saints, not in a substitution for Christ, who’s mediation makes all prayers more efficacious (sp?)
YOU:
So, what are Catholic people doing when they appear to be praying to Saints? I ask because all of the devout Catholics that I have met have been wonderfull people and the Catholic church has done a better job on social issues than most protestant churches. But as a protestant some of the Catholic practices seem a little strange to me. Especially the Mary veneration which always seemed like idolotry.
One of the first things Moses heard that God is the God of the living, not the dead. When Saul did that, the gates of Heaven were closed and the righteous dead were waiting for the coming of Christ. But all of those are now in Heaven and alive in Christ.
The Catholic Church also makes a distinction between the Church Triumphant (the saints, canonized and uncanonized, in Heaven), the Church Suffering (those is Purgatory), and the Church Militant (the faithful on earth). Though the three are in different places, they are part of one Church and pray on behalf of each other to the Most Holy Trinity.
So, when Christ spoke to John saying “behold your mother” you would interpret him to be ultimately speaking to all of us? In the Protestant church where I grew up we simply interpreted that passage as Jesus instructing John to look after his mother after his death.
Those of us whose earthly mothers are less than optimal are very grateful that Christ gave us his own mother at the cross.
As far as the other saints, I consider my patron saint, Martha, as my spiritual Big Sister. I converted as an adult so got to choose my own, as opposed to having one chosen for me as an example by my parents. I chose Martha because I too am easily led away from spiritual concerns by earthly ones, and since she overcame that flaw to become a saint, I have hopes that her assistance will help me to do the same.
Interesting distinction - I will have to think about that.
GREAT thread topic.
Very informative, especially at the link, where a table is posted aligning verses to commandment numbers in the various systems.
Chick tracts had lots of issues. Their main goal seemed to be to scare people. I remember reading one about two little boys jumping into a murky lake that turned out to be full of poisonous snakes. I was scared to death of murky lakes after that.
Pyro gave you a great answer. We don’t believe that the Saints are dead - see his answer regarding the three parts of the Church. When the veil was torn, the souls of the rightgeous came out of their graves and the Gates of Heaven were opened by His Sacrifice. That is the big kicker. And I can tell you are being genuine in your questions - thank you for that. It is very refreshing to see on this board!
I'm going to disagree with your first word and only your first word.
It is not "most." It is not even "many." In fact, there aren't enough of those you describe to form a softball team.
Just curious - do you believe Reason and Logic are gifts from God? Not trying to be snarky, genuinely wondering...
I believe the RM has issued a standing proscription of even the mention of that lying bastard’s name.
ds,
in one sense, you could say that Christ was just saying to watch his mother, but there is more to the words of the dying Jesus that actually show that his first intention was not to entrust his Mother to John, but to entrust the disciple to Mary and to give her a new maternal role.
remmber to when he uses the term, “woman”, also usedat the wedding in Cana to lead Mary to a new dimension of her existence as Mother?
it shows how the Saviour’s words are not the fruit of a simple sentiment of filial affection but are meant to be put at a higher level.
>>Prayer to dead saints may be valid. I’ll stick with God’s promise and not waste my time on maybe. <<
Fine with me. As long as you don’t slam me for going with the maybe. I need all the friends I can get.
Even here on FR.
So many non-Catholics here, walk the walk and talk the talk.
I see Christ in many FReepers!
Verse 17 doesn't divide up that way because 'house' comes before 'wife' and then the other possessions are listed after the wife. But in Deuteronomy 5:21 'wife' comes before all of the possessions so it can be divided into parts a (lust) and b (greed).
I can only presume that the RCC uses Deuteronomy 5:21 as the basis for this division and not Exodus 20:17. But the article makes no mention of it at all and thus confuses the issue further.
The related link I posted is above is a bit better presented in that regard I think.
You can pray for my wife who is fighting Leukemia and I don’t care if you ask a saint to relay the message to God as long as he gets the request.
I will have to go back and read the account of the wedding in Cana again. How do Catholics interpret the account found in Matthew 12:46-50. Here is what it says in the NIV version.
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.
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