Posted on 04/30/2008 7:47:49 AM PDT by Pyro7480
They are not intended as such.
I understand Christians praying for each other.
But my understanding of prayer is that my prayers go directly to God. And I also understand that God listens to all prayers from those who truly seek him with a humble heart -- God surely hears my prayers -- and I'm a wretched sinner -- as surely as He hears the prayers of the most holy person on Earth.
If I want ask a living person who is more holy than I am (and I am surely one of the most wretched sinners) to pray for me, and if I am unable to telephone, email, or speak to him face-to-face, can I say a prayer to him, even though he is still alive? Or would it be more effective to pray to God directly? How many prayers to people -- living or dead -- would it take before God would be able to hear my concerns?
You might want to direct that question to Gabriel, who venerated her first. ;-)
Scripture is filled with admonitions for people to pray for each other in the N.T., including by command of Jesus Himself. If there were no value in asking others to pray for us, or praying for others on their behalf, it wouldn’t be Scriptural.
If we as Christians are brothers of Jesus, then, as with Jesus, God is our Father and Mary is our Mother. The bible also teaches, that all Christians become part of the body of Christ. Again this re-emphasises the fact that as Christians become one with Jesus they share with Him, the Fatherhood of God and also, the motherhood of Mary.
The New Testament has two further passages which confirm Mary's motherhood of Christians:
Near the cross of Jesus, stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing near by, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on the disciple took her into his home.
John 19.25
This is not just a personal bequest of his Mother to John, but, being from the cross itself, has a greater significance. First of all, if Jesus were merely asking John to take care of Mary, He would have made His first request to John. But if you look at the passage, you will see that His first statement is to Mary. The emphasis is therefore upon Mary being Mother to John, not John "looking after" Mary. John here represents all the disciples of Jesus, and hence all Christians, who are given Mary as their Mother.
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring - those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 12.17
This passage shows the Dragon (Satan), making war on the Woman (Mary)'s offspring, following the birth of Jesus. These offspring, clearly represent the community of Christians, who are "the rest of" Mary's children.
Ouch. That hit a nerve.
St. John was a teenager at the time, most likely. What "home"? This is a good illustration of the danger of those easy to read, smoothed-out translations. Here, in addition to being unlikely to be accurate, this suggests that what transpired between Jesus, Mary and St. John was a commonplace economic transaction, as if Jesus -- Who foreknew His own death -- simply forgot to arrange for the well-being of His Mother and, at the last moment, remembered.
The original, of course, has no "home" whatsoever. "Eis ta idia" translates "into his own" or "with his kind", an awkward phrase, but a deep meaning.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.
2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Catholics really believe in being “one body”...Just because someone has passed off this physical earth doesn't mean they are dead in the Lord. Jesus promised life.
The Saints that we use intercessory pray with are exemplars of a grace under fire with a particular issue.
St. Monica for example was the mother of St. Augustine...She prayed for his conversion for 30 years when he was living as a libertine.
Requesting prayers for your son or daughter when they are not living in one or another sin..would be requesting prayers from someone that had been there.
No different that asking for prayers from a member of your church communion who helped a child through drug addiction ..pray for your child going through the same thing.
That is why the Catholic Church has patron saints for soldiers, nurses, doctors, teachers et all.
The Catholic view is all of our prayers are united in Christ..both living and in heaven.
If you read revelations....The saints are depicted as praying in front of the altar of the Lamb...
Wow, I didn’t know that there were prayers to saints documented back that far in history.
Nina, that is very nicely phrased. I too am often overwhelmed by earthly concerns, so I understand why you chose the patron saint you did.
St. Martha would be proud of you, I think.
Regards,
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.
Apologies if this has already been answered. I am working my way gradually through this thread. Now, step back a few passages and look at the whole picture.
First, Mary stays mostly in the background. But in the case of the Wedding at Cana, she steps for a moment into the light. In the Gospel we read: "On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; Jesus also was invited to the marriage." Take careful note that Mary seems to have had the main invitation and The Lord was "also invited". Mary, however, redirects everyone back to the Lord. Second, in all the moments in the Gospel in which Mary appears, she is seen to take in what happens in regard to her Son and herself and then contemplate them in silence before doing anything. After the Angel departed from her, she journeyed to see Elizabeth contemplating what happened before she burst out in her great Canticle. At the Presentation she contemplated the things Simeon told her. You will find this pattern again and again. At Cana Mary sees how the time, the right moment, had finally arrived for Jesus to make Himself known in public. Mary contemplated everything and, when all was prepared, she spoke and then stepped back into the shadows. She always redirects our gaze to her Son. As Catholics we know with certain and divinely guided Faith that Christ instituted sacraments which would be the ordinary means for us to obtain the graces opening the way to salvation. God the Father created marriage in the creation of Adam and Eve and the mandate and different roles He gave them. We know that Christ’s presence at the Wedding at Cana did sanctify that marriage and, in so doing, sanctifies Christian marriage contracted in Christ in and under His Church, raising marriage to the dignity of a sacrament.
Will put your wife on my prayer list.
And you too...
Thanks.
Thank you for the clarification. Koine Greek?
You think heaven is a material place with the same rules of physics as on earth?
Thanks for all the great replies. I still am uncomfortable with parts of Catholic theology but ya’ll have given me a lot to think about. I certainly see all of you as brothers and sisters in Christ and I am very glad that the level of animosity between Catholics and Protestants is not what it sounds like it was back I when I was too young to remember.
Ditto!
Thank you tasmanianred.
Pray doesn't necessarily mean worship. We Catholics (and the Orthodox, the Coptics, etc) ask the saints for help, but we worship God alone.
your family is in our prayers. Lord have Mercy.
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