Vatican letter directs bishops to keep parish records from Mormons

Catholic News Service ^ | May 2, 2008 | By Chaz Muth

[wagglebee]

Please cite ANY part of the New Testament where Jesus Christ forced ANYONE to accept Him against their will.

[Domandred]

It is a hobby, fine, but I must warn you other Christians like you.

1 Timothy: 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith

Paul wasn't telling Timothy or other Christians to not do geneology.

Timothy was in Ephesus setting up the Church there, particularly choosing Elders and leaders for the Church. Paul was telling Timothy to pick those that taught sound doctrine, not those that proved they were the most qualified by giving a geneology down to whoever, and not those that told myths about themselves as to why they should be the leaders.

Similarly in the modern LDS church we are also not supposed to pick or call leaders based on their geneology, but through prayer and the spirit, whether they are converts or generational members. Yes I'm talking about Stake Presidents and Bishops that seem to think that converts aren't good enough to serve in church leadership callings.

It also serves as a warning about those that profess that since they are descendant from some leader they somehow have better doctrine then the Church itself does. Yes I'm talking about Sandra Tanner.

[colorcountry]

Sounds to me like Paul was warning the folks in Ephesus not to get sidetracked by myths and false teachers (like the Mormons)

Warning Against False Teachers of the Law

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God’s work–which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

[restornu]

My question
How many Jews were forced to accept Jesus vicarious gift?

***

“Please cite ANY part of the New Testament where Jesus Christ forced ANYONE to accept Him against their will.” ~ wagglebee

Thank you helping me make my point that the “Gift of Vicarious Baptist for the Dead” is the same thing, it is not doing anything against anyone agency

It is an act that is being perform in reserved for that person should they choose to accept the gift!

It one is stuck in a place and this ordinance needs to be done in order to receive the Lord promise the Lord provided a way for it to be done through vicarious Baptist!

When trying to forbid the knowledge that would be used for baptism for the dead, it seems it is those on this side who are hindering that soul on the other side from making their own decision to receive the gift or not to receive the gift!

I would be really upset that some one or group on earth was interfering with my right to chose and deny my progress in the Spirit World.

[ansel12]

Didn’t the cult say that they would quit bothering the Jews when they asked, won’t they just leave any faith alone when it is instructed to do so by that faith?

[colorcountry]

won’t they just leave any faith alone when it is instructed to do so by that faith?

Here's a rhetorical question for you....Will they quit knocking on your door after you tell them you're not interested?

I wonder why they even bother. Instead of sending out 60,000 missionaries, why don't they just go get census information and baptize everyone by proxy. LOL

[TheDon]

Whether you agree with Catholicism or not (we know you don’t), we CAN show justification for Purgatory in the Bible, Mormons CANNOT show justification for baptism of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:29
"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

So, how about the justification for purgatory in the Bible? I've not heard it before.

[TheDon]

While many christians do not believe baptism is necessary for salvation, for those that do, how do they reconcile the justice, mercy and love of God for His children who never had a chance to hear about Jesus Christ, let alone be baptized? It is a gapping hole in their theology. Of course, those who don’t believe baptism is necessary are in the same boat. You can’t accept someone you’ve never heard of. We have the answers for that question.

[mountainbunny]

Hmmm. . .something about indulgences and praying for those in purgatory comes to mind.

Prayer for those who are dead (for non-LDS, anyway) is not to convert. Praying for souls is just that: praying for souls. It doesn't attempt to convert Jews to Christians and it doesn't pretend to. It doesn't say to Jews that died for being Jewish that they'd have been better off LDS members.

Does praying for people in Purgatory insult the memories of Jews who died in the Holocaust? Not in any way I can think of.

I've never heard a single Jew complain about it. But plenty have complained specifically, and loudly about proxy baptism. Why do you think that is?

People of the Jewish faith have asked many times that the practice stop, yet it continues to this day. See: http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/040227/mormons.shtml

And what indulgences have to do with anything is beyond me, unless you need to change the subject away from the one at hand.

[livius]

Shhhh...don’t give them any ideas!

All they need, obviously, is a name, so I guess that technically they could steal the entire US Soc Sec database, “baptize” everyone, and declare that all of the US was Mormon...

[wagglebee]

So, how about the justification for purgatory in the Bible? I've not heard it before.

There is plenty, but I will use this:

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. (Matthew 12:32)

It is simply a matter of what is "the world to come." There is no longer any need for forgiveness in Heaven for all has already been forgiven, there is no possibility of forgiveness in Hell, so that means there must be a THIRD "world to come" where forgiveness is both still needed AND still available -- this is Purgatory.

[Campion]

Else what shall they do ...

Who's "they"? It doesn't say "we" or "you" or "the church"; it says "they". We don't know who "they" were.

The Greek also does not demand proxy baptism for the dead; it's more ambiguous than that. There's zero support among the church fathers for the practice AFAIK.

As for purgatory, 1 Cor 3:15 and the immediate vicinity. "Saved, but as through fire" sounds like purgatory to me.

[narses]

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[Cicero]

Since the Catholic Church teaches that Mormon baptisms are invalid—as I would have expected—it doesn’t seem to me to be a big deal. These posthumous Mormon baptisms are basically ineffectual.

Perhaps the Vatican issued the order not to share baptismal records with the Mormon Church because that might be mistakenly interpreted as some sort of recognition of their baptisms. Probably parish records should be kept private, in any case, unless someone seems to have a legitimate reason for wanting the information.

But frankly it doesn’t matter to me if anyone knows when and where I was born or baptised.

[TheDon]

So purgatory is implied scripturally?

[wagglebee]

Yes.

[colorcountry]

Don’t you believe in Spirit Prison?

from lds.org

Spirit prison is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent and accept ordinances of salvation that are performed for them in temples (see D&C 138:30–35). Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81–85).

[TheDon]

Questions about baptism for the dead answered here by an LDS member:

• Why do Mormons believe in baptism for the dead?
• Isn't it wrong to force dead people to become Mormons? I don't want you making my dead grandmother a Mormon - that's offensive!
• Does 1 Corinthians 15:29 really mean that early Christians practiced baptism for the dead?
• Can you show anyplace in the Bible (besides 1 Cor. 15) where baptism of the dead is advocated?
• So what if some early Christians practiced baptism for the dead? There have long been odd and apostate practices.
• Why do you misinterpret 1 Peter 3:19? Christ did not go to redeem the dead by preaching, but to declare his victory and their damnation.
• Baptism into another faith is a supremely important and personal decision. How can you make that decision for others?
• What's this about the Pastor of Hermas and baptism for the dead? Did he really mention that?
• Does the Book of Mormon contradict the idea of baptism for the dead by saying that you can't repent after death?

[TheDon]

Correct!

[restornu]

Prayer for those who are dead (for non-LDS, anyway) is not to convert

Excuse me LDS don't convert, the Holy Ghost does that!

The world convert the world to the world various religions but only the Only Holy Ghost can bring a soul to Christ!

No mortal can do that, I was witness too by the power of the Holy Ghost just me and the Spirit of the Lord.

Than I investigated the Church.

Prior to that I never met a missionary. You are misguided in your process! Thinking in they ways of the telestial world isn't going to elevate your thoughts and it seems very few every elevate their thoughts to the ways of the Lord.