Posted on 05/08/2008 10:33:59 AM PDT by NYer
The Catholic Controversy of the Week (well, the most-prominent one) involves what you see above.
That's a Mormon baptismal font, and in a move that sent the religion beat into overdrive -- and threatened to put a damper on the tip-top relations that just saw two top leaders of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints attend an ecumenical prayer gathering with the Pope for the first time -- an early April letter from the Vatican's Congregation for the Clergy urged the global church to withhold parish registers from LDS, citing the Mormon practice of posthumous baptisms.
The story was first reported by CNS last week:
The order came in light of "grave reservations" expressed in a Jan. 29 letter from the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the clergy congregation's letter said.While the LDS leadership has refrained from public comment on the letter -- which it was supposed to receive on Monday -- in an effort to contain the damage in the Mormon home-base, where Catholics and LDS have long enjoyed exemplary ties, Bishop John Wester of Salt Lake City took to the local airwaves earlier today:
Father James Massa, executive director of the U.S. bishops' Secretariat of Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, said the step was taken to prevent the Latter-day Saints from using records -- such as baptismal documentation -- to posthumously baptize by proxy the ancestors of church members.
Posthumous baptisms by proxy have been a common practice for the Latter-day Saints -- commonly known as Mormons -- for more than a century, allowing the church's faithful to have their ancestors baptized into their faith so they may be united in the afterlife, said Mike Otterson, a spokesman in the church's Salt Lake City headquarters.
In a telephone interview with CNS May 1, Otterson said he wanted a chance to review the contents of the letter before commenting on how it will affect the Mormons' relationship with the Catholic Church.
"This dicastery is bringing this matter to the attention of the various conferences of bishops," the letter reads. "The congregation requests that the conference notifies each diocesan bishop in order to ensure that such a detrimental practice is not permitted in his territory, due to the confidentiality of the faithful and so as not to cooperate with the erroneous practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."...
Father Massa said he could see how the policy stated in the letter could strain relations between the Catholic Church and the Latter-day Saints.
"It certainly has that potential," he said. "But I would also say that the purpose of interreligious dialogue is not to only identify agreements, but also to understand our differences. As Catholics, we have to make very clear to them their practice of so-called rebaptism is unacceptable from the standpoint of Catholic truth."
“I do think it’s important for people not to jump to conclusions,” said Bishop Wester. “It’s simply reminding us that our sacramental records are supposed to be preserved, taken care of and that they’re supposed to be kept confidential.”...While the rite of posthumous baptism is commonly understood to extend only to the non-LDS ancestors of Mormons, reports last year indicated that Pope John Paul II was just one of a list of notable names baptized that also included Hitler, Chairman Mao and Mickey Mouse.
2NEWS’ Brian Mullahy asked Bishop Wester how he reconciles his words with the words of Father Massa.
“I understand what Father Massa is saying,” said Bishop Wester. “What he says is true, the Catholic and LDS Churches have two distinct theologies of baptism. We know that. We’ve always known that.”
The LDS practice of baptisms for the dead has also been condemned by Jewish groups who say that names of Holocaust victims are still in LDS genealogical database for unwelcome baptisms.
Like Jewish leaders in past, Bishop Wester met with a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints for a respectful conversation.
Bishop Wester says he wants to make sure that it is understood that the Vatican letter is not an attack on the LDS church and despite doctrinal differences; the two faiths can still live together peacefully, without straining relationships.
“Even though we have different theologies, we have found many ways to work together, we respect each other, we acknowledge the values we hold in common. That hasn’t changed,” said Bishop Wester.
Ping
I don’t care, they can go ahead and Baptize me to their hearts content.
With Our Lord’s grace I’ll be sitting in heaven laughing at them!
Where’s the controversy here? Mormons only do baptisms for the dead because they consider all non-Mormon baptisms to be ineffective and void. Likewise, Catholics consider Mormon proxy baptisms (and, primarily due to a denial of an eternal, triune Godhead, their “normal” ones, too) to be invalid. This constitutes a “tie.” Till now, Catholics haven’t publicly considered Mormon proxy baptisms to be a direct, intentional slight to us or anyone else, despite the obvious implications of them. Perhaps the Mormons need to look at this in the same way. The mutually considered “invalidlity” of the other’s baptismal practices offsets any umbrage-taking. Let’s move on.
But on the other, I can see that parishes should not materially cooperate in assisting a completely invalid baptism.
In other words, I think it's probably not right to turn over parish records to LDS baptizers, no more would it be right for a synagogue to do so.
If the LDS can obtain the records from a neutral source, either a government archive or a genealogy database, then more power to them, baptize away, knock yourselves out. But it's tacky to expect a rabbi or a priest to help them do something that's against their religion.
P.S. . . . does anybody know what the deal is with all the cattle around the font? If it were a watering tank, they'd surely be facing the other way . . . . Seriously, I've seen medieval fonts with supporting animals, usually the Gospel archetypes of the angel (Matthew), the winged bull (Luke), the lion (Mark) and the eagle (John), but never with all the cows.
That explains their fascination with genealogy.
“P.S. . . . does anybody know what the deal is with all the cattle around the font? If it were a watering tank, they’d surely be facing the other way . . . . Seriously, I’ve seen medieval fonts with supporting animals, usually the Gospel archetypes of the angel (Matthew), the winged bull (Luke), the lion (Mark) and the eagle (John), but never with all the cows.”
I believe its supposed to be derived from the lavabo (cleansing vessel) in Solomon’s temple which was brazen and had cast oxen.
The LDS group believes their modern temples are either a more perfect continuation and/or the fulfillment of the Jewish archetype (i.e. Solomon’s temple).
I notice that there are twelve of them - possibly something to do with the Twelve Tribes? (aren’t the folks in the Book of Mormon one or more of the Lost Tribes?)
Is that a bovine polygamous family?
Could you not know that it appears to be an attempt to reproduce the vessel that was used at Solomon’s temple? Or maybe you were joking and I’m a bit thick?
In other words, I think it's probably not right to turn over parish records to LDS baptizers, no more would it be right for a synagogue to do so.
It's always nice to see somebody "get it".
I was thinking of the Golden Calf.
I hope this can be resolved so that researchers won't suffer. I doubt that the pope believes that a dead Catholic will be adversely affected because a fifth cousin three times removed had some kind of proxy baptism performed for him in the Mormon church 100 years after his death.
++++++++++++++
There are 12 oxen.
I think (and please, someone correct me if I remember wrong), that they represent the 12 tribes of Israel. Don, you are better then I am at this kind of stuff, am I right?
"But on the other, I can see that parishes should not materially cooperate in assisting a completely invalid baptism.
"In other words, I think it's probably not right to turn over parish records to LDS baptizers, no more would it be right for a synagogue to do so.
“If the LDS can obtain the records from a neutral source, either a government archive or a genealogy database, then more power to them, baptize away, knock yourselves out. But it's tacky to expect a rabbi or a priest to help them do something that's against their religion.”
Wow. You sure cut to the chase.
Great post.
sitetest
Will we see anyone asking
“Why do mormons worship oxen?”
/sarcasm
LOL!
You're bad!! That didn't even occur to me.
;-)
sitetest
The dead cannot be baptized, so this is a moot point. Furthermore, the Catholic Church and most orthodox Protestants have never considered Mormon baptisms to be valid, because they are not Trinitarian Christians and essentially have a different intention in baptizing.
This is all about inflating Mormon statistics. Muslims - and Islam is a heresy that is very, very similar to Mormonism - assert that everybody was born Muslim, and therefore they can consider themselves to be the majority, which the press happily believes. The Mormons assert that they have some huge numerical majority, and while I have seen them all over the place in Europe “evangelizing,” I have actually met only one native European Mormon. I’m sure there are more, but the point is that Mormons are very canny and are trying to use this as a media war.
It’s a pity. Mormons (the LDS, that is, who of course were forced by the US government to adopt American standards if they wanted Utah to be part of the Union) are trying very hard to be Christians, and many of them assert that they are like any other Protestant group. That is, somehow the Faith disappeared for 1500 years and then reemerged with their particular “reformer.” The Mormons, of course, think it disappeared until the 19th century, but heck, what’s a few hundred years among reformers.
That said, when their “reform” occurred, they rejected the Trinity, do not regard Jesus as the Son, and like the Muslims, have a “prophet” that trumps everything else. The only thing that prevents them from truly following their prophet, as the Muslims follow their prophet, is that the US forced them to abandon some of their prophet’s practices, and there are some in the Mormon community who actually want to be standard Protestant Christians and are trying to reject that ugly heritage.
Baptizing the dead is simply a way of inflating their head count, and while it has no effect, it makes them look a lot more important than they are. Personally, I think the real battle is going to come with the clash between their “prophet” and Islam’s “prophet.” Both of them had similar beliefs, but obviously, there’s only room in this world for one “final prophet.”
It means nothing, but I would find it offensive. The idea of “baptizing” people after their deaths is a mockery of other Christian faiths.
In the spiritual dimension, it would have no effect on any soul as far as I understand Christian baptism.
The only victims of these proxy baptisms are the practitioners of the false religion that practices them. They can't do a thing to the departed.
At least Jews aren't the only people being silly over this matter.
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