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The Hypocrisy of Catholic Answers [Mormons taking 150.000 Catholics a year?]
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2008/05/hypocrisy-of-catholic-answers.html ^ | 10 May, 2008 | Carrie at Beggars All

Posted on 05/10/2008 9:14:50 AM PDT by Ottofire

Saturday, May 10, 2008

The Hypocrisy of Catholic Answers


I had to break my hiatus to share two interesting campaigns by Catholic Answers.

It appears from the two campaigns that the Catholic Church has a problem: the majority of Catholics are ignorant of their faith and susceptible to a variety of prey including Mormons, liberal Catholics, homosexuals and the dreaded “anti-Catholics”. In fact, according to Catholic Answers, the Mormons have been quite successful in gaining Catholic converts:

“Many people have been doing just that—especially Catholics. In fact, in recent years the majority of converts to Mormonism have been Catholics.

It makes sense, when you think about it.

Catholics are targeted by Mormons because many Catholics can be swayed easily by Mormon arguments. That’s because many Catholics don’t know their own faith.”

...With all the talk in the media about Mormonism, more and more people are curious about Mormonism and are visiting Mormon web sites.

But these web sites are deceptive. They do not explain the true beliefs of Mormonism. They try to convince readers that Mormonism is a Christian faith—in fact, the true Christian faith!

As one Mormon web site put it, “Mormonism is the religion most consistent with biblical Christianity. We do not apologize for our beliefs. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only true Christian church on the face of the earth.”

The problem is … people fall for it—especially Catholics.

In fact, Mormons count Catholics as their main target.

Over half of the current converts to Mormonism are Catholics.

Mormons target Catholics who don’t know their faith.

Sadly, that’s the majority of our fellow Catholics. They’ve been nearly defenseless against Mormon propaganda.

...With our new special report on Mormonism, we can “inoculate” Catholics from the half-truths and skewed history presented by Mormon missionaries.

By getting this report into the hands of Catholics all across America, we can bolster the faith of Catholics and keep them from leaving the Church."

-Why Catholics are easy targetsfor Mormon evangelists


Toward the end of the article, some interesting facts are mentioned:

“FACT: Each year, the Mormon church baptizes 300,000 converts. (That’s 800 a day—or another million every three years.) Half are former Catholics.”

...P.S. The Mormon religion is not what is styles itself to be. Even our Protestant brethren agree that Mormonism is non-Christian. And yet, Mormonism is flourishing in America.

Mormons especially target poorly-catechized Catholics. (Worldwide, Catholics make up half the converts to Mormonism.)”

If those facts are true, that’s a loss of half a million Catholics over three years. I’m too busy right now to look up membership statistics, but that seems like a pretty good bleed just to Mormonism alone. And it must be a concerning loss, for Catholic Answers is willing to appeal to the opinion of their “Protestant brethren” for support against Mormonism while throwing this same “brethren” under the bus in the next campaign.

The next threat to the ignorant Catholic masses (and the second need for an “inoculation”) is the “one-two punch” of homosexual activists and “radical anti-Catholics” at World Youth Day:

“And it’s what our Catholic youth will be facing when they go to see the Pope at World Youth Day in July.

In fact, our Catholic youth are facing a “one-two punch.”

On one hand, there will be the homosexual activists promoting the “gay rights” agenda, and then there will be the radical anti-Catholics—who always descend upon World Youth Day like birds of prey.

...How do I know this?

Because this is exactly what the anti-Catholics have done at every World Youth Day for fifteen years now—since 1993.

They print slick propaganda pieces designed to look like Catholic literature, if you judge by the covers. They hand these pamphlets out by the thousands to unsuspecting Catholic youth.

But inside is the worst anti-Catholic propaganda you’ve ever seen.

Using clever but deceptive arguments for which the anti-Catholics are famous, these slick propaganda pieces get the reader to doubt many of our most important Catholic beliefs and practices,”

...This started in 1993, in Denver, Colorado. We were there—and we created a special little booklet about the Catholic faith, designed to inoculate our Catholic youth against anti-Catholic propaganda.

...Any time you have swarms of Catholic students in one place, there are bound to be tens-of- thousands that aren’t well-catechized and don’t have a proper understanding of the issues.

Thus, they’re highly vulnerable to slick propaganda—not only from anti-Catholic Protestants and dissident Catholics, but this time from the radical homosexual activists too.

...P.S. With your help, we can thwart the anti-Catholics and the homosexual activists at World Youth Day—and help make this event a glorious one for the Church and for the salvation of souls.”

-Sydney or Sodom?

Note the hypocrisy of Catholic Answers when comparing the two “P.S.”s of the two campaigns. In the first campaign Protestants are brethren whose opinion is consulted, in the second they are “anti-Catholics” with “slick propaganda” that must be thwarted. I have seen this conflicting attitude many times so it is worth pointing out.

In both articles, Catholic Answers is looking for donations as they “simply don’t have that much money right now. In fact, we don’t really have any of it”. So the issues for Catholic Answers and the Church seem to be manifold: an large population of Catholics ignorant of their faith, a slow bleed of Catholics to Mormonism, the continued threat of homosexuals, liberals, and Protestants, and a lack of funds to do much about any of it. While I do lament Catholic youth being duped by people with liberal sexual agendas and Catholics falling into the further apostasy of Mormonism, I am glad to see Catholic Answers reveal their hypocritical motivations in sometimes calling Protestants their brethren. Protestants who are sympathetic to Catholicism should be paying attention to this.

(back to obscurity)



TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: catholic; ctr; lds; mormons
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-84 next last
Really I see no problem with complaining about evangelizing on one hand and ecumenicalism on the other. That just shows the problem of calling people brothers when there is no common foundation between you and them.

Mostly posted for the fact that the Mormon church is eating away so many Catholics that Catholic Answers is making a special campaign. 150,000 a year is big. Since most Mormons are from the US, I assume that most of that is here.

Just asking.

Oh, and Mormons, please do not resort to the same name calling, such as using the term ANTI-Catholic, that the Catholics do. Playing the victim card is so, well, progressive.

From the Catholic Answers fund drive sheet found in the article:

What Catholics Don’t Know Can Hurt Them

Think the Mormons are just a group of nice folks who uphold family values, clean living, and American patriotism? Think ag ain.[sic]

Think the Mormons are just a slightly eccentric offshoot of traditional Protestant Christianity? Think again.

Think Mormons are actually Christian, accepting the core doctrines of Christianity? Think again!

The truth is that Mormonism is far different from what most people think it is.

Boy, Karl, tell us how the Mormons are not nice folks then...SHEESH! I don't say the same thing about any other religion, and I have been labeled many different "Anti-"this and "Anti-" that.

Again from the CA sheet:

• Mormon doctrines have changed—often.

• Mormons dropped some of their unpopular teachings in order to clean up their public image and appeal to more Americans.

Like the Catholic traditions of forced conversion, inquisition and crusade?

Ecumenicalism is stupid period. Getting caught preaching telling people that Mormons are NOT a group of nice folks who uphold family values, clean living, and American patriotism? Well Karl Keating, I think you owe a bunch of people an apology!

1 posted on 05/10/2008 9:14:51 AM PDT by Ottofire
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To: restornu

You might find this interesting.

If you do, maybe you know others who will also find this interesting.


2 posted on 05/10/2008 9:29:21 AM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: Ottofire
Hmmm ~ did someone hear something about the possibility McCain may have a Catholic in mind to be VP?

That's the sort of thing that stirs the pot and gives us articles like this.

Still, only 150,000 per year? I thought the Mormons were draining off half a mil or more. That's right up there with the Pentecostals.

At the same time the RCs are bringing in their fair share of Episcopaleans and Lutherans these days.

3 posted on 05/10/2008 9:30:17 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Ottofire

Go to www.exmormom.org and learn much, much more.

Especially learn what the LDS authorities have to say about the Catholic Church (aka “The Great and Abominable Church” according to Mormon teachings).


4 posted on 05/10/2008 9:32:33 AM PDT by elcid1970 (My cartridges are dipped in pig grease.)
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To: Ottofire

This is correct.

We have a neighborhood child making his “first communion” today. We are invited to the party following.

All the kid can talk about is how much money he will get, not one word about Jesus or faith.

This is why the Catholic church has fallen into 2nd place behind Islam as the largest religion.


5 posted on 05/10/2008 9:33:19 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: Ottofire
Mormons especially target poorly-catechized Catholics.

"Poorly-catechized Catholics" is yet another "wonderful" (/sarcasm) outcome of Vatican II. Prior to the Second Vatican Council most Catholics were far more knowledgeable about their faith. Many of the older Catholics still are, of course, as well as younger members who undertake a traditional course of study.

6 posted on 05/10/2008 9:39:44 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture™)
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To: Ottofire

In fact, Mormons count Catholics as their main target.

Over half of the current converts to Mormonism are Catholics.

Mormons target Catholics who don’t know their faith.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

As a member, I see no one group “targeted”.


7 posted on 05/10/2008 9:44:50 AM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: Ottofire

Mormons are generally nice conservative people but I’ve found that they know very little about their history and they parrot lies about the council of Nicaea that would make Dan Brown proud while making the charlatan Joseph Smith into a martyr. What I can not understand is how so many otherwise good people can participate in the soiling the word of God with the cut and paste ramblings of the con-man Joseph Smith. It is horrible and it is unnecessary. It is like icing a perfectly good cake with manure. Redemption does not require sci-fi beliefs about God originating on a planet in a star system far far away. I suspect that many are drawn to the Mormon faith exactly because of the sci-fi aspect to it. Also I think that given the claim that the book of Mormon was translated from golden plates supplied by an angel that one would expect such word for word translation from tablets sent by God directly to be of a considerably higher quality than what we find which is an amalgam of gobbly-gook some of which appears copied directly from the King James bible. How much more clearly does the concept of forgery and fakery need to be? It preys on ignorance and it is sad that so many Christians know very little of the sacrifice beyond the cross of early Christians that they are willing to accept almost anything sold by door to door Jesus salesmen who do not spread the word of God but instead a heresy that does not increase the appreciation for the sacrifice and redemption of the cross but instead appeals to the prurient desires of humanity for secret knowledge and conspiracies.

We do not need to add layers of crud to Jesus’s message. It does not need to be jazzed up. We do not need a special seer stone, divination, or even demon warding underwear to receive the grace of God. What we need is a closet to kneel in which to present the ugliness of our sin to God and ask for forgiveness and then if we so choose we can enjoy a good sci-fi movie or sell some Amway or Mary kay to our neighbors.


8 posted on 05/10/2008 9:50:17 AM PDT by Maelstorm (Never confuse polite defferment for submission.)
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To: ears_to_hear

Quite a generalization to make based on one seven-year-old. Life must be very simple for you.


9 posted on 05/10/2008 9:51:30 AM PDT by maryz
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To: Ottofire
Since this is a posting to help Catholic's by a Catholic, I will not go line by line to show the misconceptions about “us Mormons”.

Please, look for yourself.

Thank you

fred

10 posted on 05/10/2008 9:52:01 AM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: maryz

Life is simple, Jesus is Lord..

This young boy exemplifies what faith and Christ mean in his home.
That is the problem that leads to our very Catholic area being fertile ground for Mormons and JWs and Scientology.


11 posted on 05/10/2008 10:02:22 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: steve86

>Mormons especially target poorly-catechized Catholics.

>”Poorly-catechized Catholics” is yet another “wonderful” (/sarcasm) outcome of Vatican II. Prior to the Second Vatican Council most Catholics were far more knowledgeable about their faith. Many of the older Catholics still are, of course, as well as younger members who undertake a traditional course of study.

This always makes me say “hmmm.” You have an infallible teaching that is leading people astray? Why is this better than Sola Scriptura? No one seems to agree what Vat II really means, so do we need a further infallible interpretation of that teaching?

Asking in truth...


12 posted on 05/10/2008 10:02:24 AM PDT by Ottofire (Psalm 18:31 For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God?)
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To: Ottofire
Since most Mormons are from the US, I assume that most of that is here.

Actually, not too long ago, the total number of Mormons in other countries surpassed the number of US Mormons. Much of that growth has been in South American countries and other predominantly Catholic countries so, that would be why so many Catholics are converted. There's no particular emphasis on converting Catholics its just the LDS church has found more success there than in other countries for whatever reason.

As to the rest of your posting, no, we are not traditional Christians. We believe that the church the Christ built when he was here on Earth, fell away. We believe we are a restoration of that church.

We also believe that all Christian churches have most of the truth, and many non-Christian faiths have much of God's truth as well, but many of the doctrines and teachings of the original Christian faith, in our opinion, have been influenced and colored by the interpretations of well intentioned but fallible men.

We are all imperfect and we all sin so, without direct revelation from God, as the prophets of the Bible received, man is left to perceive God's will through his own, limited understanding. As a result, error was introduced into Christ's teachings. Again, according to our opinion.

13 posted on 05/10/2008 10:06:17 AM PDT by Reaganesque
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To: fproy2222

>Since this is a posting to help Catholic’s by a Catholic, I will not go line by line to show the misconceptions about “us Mormons”.

>Please, look for yourself.

>Thank you

>fred

Sorry, but no thanks for the ecumenical spirit, for I do not believe that we should call brother those that follow false teachings. However, I understand the spirit and can appreciate that, but I am NOT Catholic, (labeled Anti-Catholic, actually, as well as Anti- Mormon) and the article is NOT about helping Catholics.

Otto


14 posted on 05/10/2008 10:07:01 AM PDT by Ottofire (Psalm 18:31 For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God?)
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To: Reaganesque

Sir, I wish to meet you and shake your hand! A LD Saint that actually can say they are not traditional Christian is a rare bird! Thank you!

I was not aware that there were more LDS outside the US than in. Does this mean we are going to start getting LDS illegals across the border?


15 posted on 05/10/2008 10:09:58 AM PDT by Ottofire (Psalm 18:31 For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God?)
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To: Ottofire; greyfoxx39; Elsie
the majority of Catholics are ignorant of their faith and susceptible to a variety of prey including Mormons, liberal Catholics, homosexuals

Oh boy.

Are you in for it now.

Here comes the LDS Warriors.

(In my opinion), they are going to attempt to smear you for posting this.

Get ready.

16 posted on 05/10/2008 10:11:20 AM PDT by SkyPilot ("I wasn't in church during the time when the statements were made.")
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To: Ottofire; Grig; fproy2222; lady lawyer; TheDon; sevenbak; Utah Girl

• Mormons dropped some of their unpopular teachings in order to clean up their public image and appeal to more

****

That is the opposition spin there is no image to clean up the LDS have been consistent sense its beginning.

Many refuse to acknowledge the LDS doctrines and want to judge them by the Traditions of Men which is not the Lord way of doing things.

• Mormon doctrines have changed—often.

****

The foundation of the LDS doctrine has not changed but as the clarification has become clearer as we receive line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.

As the LDS receives more insight so has the mainstream adapted to defend the Tradition of Men doctrine.

I am a personal observer of those changes.

As part of the mainstream for 38 years I have watch the changes in their community.

There was a time when all mainstream faith fought amongst each other.

Catholic and Jews fought physically in the early days.

Protestants and Catholic fought physically in the early days.

The fact is it took about 150 years to ratify the Nicene Creed and hasn’t it changed again and some other faiths did away with their Apostle Creed?

Also SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL the 16 Documents

http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V2ALL.HTM


17 posted on 05/10/2008 10:16:14 AM PDT by restornu (The Opposition spends all its time "playing goalie" hoping others will not READ the BOOK OF MORMON!)
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To: Ottofire
“FACT: Each year, the Mormon church baptizes 300,000 converts. (That’s 800 a day—or another million every three years.) Half are former Catholics.”

Is that in the US or worldwide?

And are we talking about actually living, breathing people?

18 posted on 05/10/2008 10:18:38 AM PDT by x
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To: Ottofire

I am NOT Catholic, (labeled Anti-Catholic, actually, as well as Anti- Mormon) and the article is NOT about helping Catholics.

+++

Then this will help you.

“Anti-Catholicism is as old as the Reformation. Martin Luther himself referred to the popes collectively as the “‘whore of the devil.’” (Vogel, 59 and Wright, 2:568.) Adam Clarke’s popular nineteenth-century Bible commentary equated the “great whore that sitteth upon many waters” (Rev. 17:1) with the Catholic Church. (Vogel, 60.) Some early nineteenth-century Protestant writings referred to the Roman Catholic Church as “‘the whore’” and the “‘mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.’” (Ibid.) Yet other religious figures of the day believed that not only were Catholics part of the “the whore,” but so were competing Protestants. (Ibid., 61.)”

from: http://www.mormonfortress.com/ga.html


19 posted on 05/10/2008 10:24:47 AM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: ears_to_hear

That is the truth, some good friends of mine whose son just finished Catechism had a similar outlook, when I offered him 10 dollars if he could tell me anything that he learned, his reply was “Jesus loves me”.


20 posted on 05/10/2008 10:25:12 AM PDT by padre35 (Conservative in Exile/ Isaiah 3.3/Cry havoc and let slip the RINOS)
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To: ears_to_hear
All the kid can talk about is how much money he will get, not one word about Jesus or faith.

How many kids of any denomination need to be reminded Christmas isn't about presents?

This is an indictment of materialism and consumerism, not Catholicism.

21 posted on 05/10/2008 10:29:27 AM PDT by jude24 (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: ears_to_hear
We have a neighborhood child making his “first communion” today. We are invited to the party following. All the kid can talk about is how much money he will get, not one word about Jesus or faith. This is why the Catholic church has fallen into 2nd place behind Islam as the largest religion.

The problem is that the church, in its desire to gain/keep adherents, long ago said that you were a Catholic so long as you were confirmed, etc. So you have all these people who were born catholic, went through the routines, but never really studied or were indoctrinated into the faith. The Church would be better off if it was smaller but all of its members were believers.

22 posted on 05/10/2008 10:30:55 AM PDT by Ron Jeremy
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To: Ottofire
I don't think so. Article of Faith number 12 states:

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

So, you can see why most of us aren't Democrats! ;-)

23 posted on 05/10/2008 10:32:14 AM PDT by Reaganesque
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To: x

“FACT: Each year, the Mormon church baptizes 300,000 converts. (That’s 800 a day—or another million every three years.) Half are former Catholics.”

Is that in the US or worldwide?

And are we talking about actually living, breathing people?

***

Baptism for the Dead is a vicarious gift and we in the Temporal world have no say over those on the other side of the vail if they accept the gift or not!

So the conversion would be those living and breathing here on earth!


24 posted on 05/10/2008 10:33:49 AM PDT by restornu (The Opposition spends all its time "playing goalie" hoping others will not READ the BOOK OF MORMON!)
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To: fproy2222

I wish not to contend with our follow Catholic only to clarify some points of misconception.


25 posted on 05/10/2008 10:37:45 AM PDT by restornu (The Opposition spends all its time "playing goalie" hoping others will not READ the BOOK OF MORMON!)
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To: x

The numbers are suspect.

But whatever the true numbers are, it is worldwide. Mostly in poor countries where the majority of converts fall away within 2 years.


26 posted on 05/10/2008 10:45:59 AM PDT by JRochelle (Keep sweet means shut up and take it.)
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To: ears_to_hear

Sounds like the kid has a family problem, not a religion one. I have had two go through first communion and neither got any money. They got communion. It was important to them and they behaved like it was important to them. I went through first communion and I remember how big of a deal it was. Never got a penny for it though. Sounds like the neighborhood kid needs to wake up.


27 posted on 05/10/2008 10:46:21 AM PDT by coon2000
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To: Ottofire
A LD Saint that actually can say they are not traditional Christian is a rare bird!

I have no problem with people or me saying I am not a traditional Christian, or unorthodox Christian. My problem is when people say I'm not a Christian at all because I am LDS.

28 posted on 05/10/2008 10:52:13 AM PDT by Domandred (McCain's 'R' is a typo that has never been corrected)
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To: Ottofire; greyfoxx39; Pan_Yans Wife; MHGinTN; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; Osage Orange; ...

Ping!


29 posted on 05/10/2008 10:53:52 AM PDT by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Ottofire

Jesus suffered and died for me to save me from my sins. I am a Mormon and I am not ashamed.


30 posted on 05/10/2008 10:59:09 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: Domandred
"My problem is when people say I'm not a Christian at all because I am LDS."

Because you're LDS, you're going to Hell.

Repent! Awake! Reject Satan's lies before it's too late!

Better?

31 posted on 05/10/2008 11:04:06 AM PDT by Enosh (†)
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To: ears_to_hear

Oh and I suppose no child related to you has ever gotten so excited about Christmas presents that they forgot the reason for Christmas?


32 posted on 05/10/2008 11:07:58 AM PDT by defconw (Pray for Snow!)
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To: narses

Ping


33 posted on 05/10/2008 11:15:00 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Plea to mormon FReepers, "DONT HOSE ME, BRO!")
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To: Ottofire

“Note the hypocrisy of Catholic Answers when comparing the two “P.S.”s of the two campaigns. In the first campaign Protestants are brethren whose opinion is consulted, in the second they are “anti-Catholics” with “slick propaganda” that must be thwarted. I have seen this conflicting attitude many times so it is worth pointing out.”


There is nothing hypocritical about that, those are two different subjects, one is a common cause that they both share and the other is largely the reason that they are two separate groups.

Since they are two sides of the same coin there is much they will share together and still not become one perfect, single, organization of Christians.


34 posted on 05/10/2008 11:20:21 AM PDT by ansel12 (Unfortunately, son, we 'Utahans' sometimes have to bend the rules a little in order to hold our own.)
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To: Ottofire
Catholics are targeted by Mormons because many Catholics can be swayed easily by Mormon arguments.

They're not just targeted by Mormons. If you look at any JW arguments re the Trinity, you'll see that JW apologetics are also targeted towards Catholics.

That’s because many Catholics don’t know their own faith.

Many? I daresay a majority don't know their own faith, or don't take it seriously. How many Catholics practice birth control, or vote Democrat? Or don't attend mass regularly? These would be the likely converts that Mormonism is picking up. Our FRCatholic friends will respond by telling us those people "aren't really Catholic" or have "excommunicated themselves." Since they're not "really Catholic" anyway, you'd think there would be no reason to persuade them to stay.

But Catholic Answers disagrees - the uninformed, uninvolved, and easily swayed are "really Catholic", and CA wants them back...

"...With our new special report on Mormonism, we can “inoculate” Catholics from the half-truths and skewed history presented by Mormon missionaries.

By getting this report into the hands of Catholics all across America, we can bolster the faith of Catholics and keep them from leaving the Church."

35 posted on 05/10/2008 11:25:17 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: fproy2222

Personally, I’m with President Hinckley’s feelings on the matter. Better an active Baptist than an inactive Mormon. People should worship in the way that they think will bring them closest to God, and ultimately salvation. For me, that is the LDS church, for others, it is the Catholic church, the Lutheran church, the Baptist church, etc. We are all responsible for our own decisions in this life. I think the honest seeker will not be disappointed in the day of judgement.


36 posted on 05/10/2008 11:25:58 AM PDT by TheDon
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To: Domandred

“I have no problem with people or me saying I am not a traditional Christian, or unorthodox Christian. My problem is when people say I’m not a Christian at all because I am LDS. “


All Christendom says that Mormonism is not Christian, it is a question that knows no diversity among Christian churches.


37 posted on 05/10/2008 11:27:37 AM PDT by ansel12 (Unfortunately, son, we 'Utahans' sometimes have to bend the rules a little in order to hold our own.)
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To: Ottofire
Google has lots of references to Sheep stealing

Since most Mormons are from the US, I assume that most of that is here.

The majority of Mormons are now outside of the US. I'd guess most of the sheep stealing is in south and central America. Certainly not in Europe!

38 posted on 05/10/2008 11:31:46 AM PDT by TheDon
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To: Ottofire
It isn't infallible. Nothing like that.

The Second Vatican Council (1963-5) was not intended to be an infallible doctrinal council but was conceived as a “pastoral” renewal of the Church

----------------------------------------------

Because pastoral pronouncements are neither "true" nor "false", and because they must be expressed in language that is vague and ambiguous, they cannot be the subject of infallibility. Thus it follows that the Holy Ghost simply cannot be solemnly invoked at a strictly pastoral Council, because the pastoral pronouncements could not be infallible anyway. All pastoral pronouncements, even those of Ecumenical Councils which are partly doctrinal and partly pastoral, form part of the Church's day to day Ordinary Magisterium. Thus, what is taught in a pastoral pronouncement is not assured to be infallible.

39 posted on 05/10/2008 11:32:35 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture™)
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To: Reaganesque; Ottofire
So, you can see why most of us aren't Democrats! ;-)

One of your most famous apologists was. As his obituary read in the Salt Lake Tribune,

"A die-hard Democrat in conservative Utah County, he spoke out on controversial and unpopular topics like the futility of loyalty oaths in the midst of the McCarthy hearings and the Vietnam War."

40 posted on 05/10/2008 11:34:45 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: restornu

Since Mormons consider themselves Christians, why do you waste your time “converting” fellow Christians when there is a world of non-Christians to save? Do you believe Mormons are the ONLY Christians?


41 posted on 05/10/2008 11:38:02 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Saundra Duffy

Jesus suffered and died for me to save me from my sins.
_________________________________________________

Even the demons in Hell know that...


42 posted on 05/10/2008 11:39:14 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Domandred

Maybe you could answer my question in Post 41?


43 posted on 05/10/2008 11:43:24 AM PDT by DManA
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To: jude24
How many kids of any denomination need to be reminded Christmas isn't about presents?
This is an indictment of materialism and consumerism, not Catholicism.

Huh?

When my granddaughter asked to be able to participate at the table she was 11. She met with elders to be questioned to see if she had professed Christ and that she understood the spiritual significance of the moment and had a good theological understanding of the Lords supper.

It was not a mini virginal wedding event , where time and money was spent so they would look beautiful on that day (as God looks at the heart).

There was no party to reward HER for Christ coming to her in a special way.

We have talked to her younger sister and told her when she felt that communion would be a spiritual benefit to her to let us know.

The truth is Jude, only Catholic ( and maybe EO kids??) look at this as an event that is all about THEM.

BTW less than 1/2 of the RCs believe that communion is the actual body of Christ...that speaks much to THEIR church's preparation in their theology

44 posted on 05/10/2008 11:47:23 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: Ron Jeremy

I agree. This is a numbers game.


45 posted on 05/10/2008 11:48:39 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: coon2000

This is the norm in our area.

little girls dressed as mini brides, strutting proudly in their beautiful dress, boys in their first suit..then the party.

There is something wrong with rewarding someone that is a recipient of a gift and not the giver.


46 posted on 05/10/2008 11:51:10 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: Tennessee Nana
Jesus suffered and died for me to save me from my sins. _________________________________________________
Even the demons in Hell know that...

but they can not proclaim it because it was not for them.

Amen ! Salvation is not about intellectual assent, it is about a change in the heart brought about by God opening the eyes to a spiritual truth that applies to them... They were saved by the grace and mercy of God...not their own works or goodness

47 posted on 05/10/2008 11:55:36 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: ears_to_hear
When my granddaughter asked to be able to participate at the table she was 11. She met with elders to be questioned to see if she had professed Christ and that she understood the spiritual significance of the moment and had a good theological understanding of the Lords supper.

And that was the right thing to do. My point is that the blithe materialism your neighborhood kid displayed was, in fact, no more consistent with the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist than any kid (Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox) who thinks Christmas is all about presents.

The truth is Jude, only Catholic ( and maybe EO kids??) look at this as an event that is all about THEM.

Well, there might be something there, in that only Catholicism seems to throw parties for First Communion. The tendency to lose sight of the purpose of that type of celebration, though, is universal. Kids view Christmas as all about them too.

BTW less than 1/2 of the RCs believe that communion is the actual body of Christ...that speaks much to THEIR church's preparation in their theology

Indeed it does.

48 posted on 05/10/2008 11:56:53 AM PDT by jude24 (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: Ottofire
It is not hypocrisy to refer to "our Protestant brethren" and then refer to "anti-Catholics". First, not all Protestants are "anti-Catholic". Some are quite sympathetic to Catholicism in many respects, and find much common ground with Catholics on many questions of ethics and doctrine. But second, there is no contradiction even in referring to *anti-Catholic* Protestants as our brothers in Christ. There would be a contradiction if Catholics were referring to anti-Catholic atheists as "our brothers in Christ". But *anti-Catholic* does not necessarily mean *anti-Christian*, particularly when it is predicated of a Protestant by a Catholic. Catholics view Protestants as brothers in Christ, even though Catholics think Protestantism is mistaken in some very important ways. Through their Trinitarian baptism and faith in Christ, Protestants are (from the point of view of Catholics) brothers and sisters in Christ.

-A8

49 posted on 05/10/2008 11:57:26 AM PDT by adiaireton8 ("I believe and profess all that the Holy Catholic Church ... proclaims to be revealed by God.")
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To: DManA
Since Mormons consider themselves Christians, why do you waste your time “converting” fellow Christians when there is a world of non-Christians to save?

You can say the same thing about all the other churches as well. LDS missionaries do serve in almost all parts, including non-Christian, of the world. Same with Catholic, Protestant, and other Christian churches.

Do you believe Mormons are the ONLY Christians?

No, nor due I believe that all Mormons are Christian. I can say the same thing without hesitation about some people I know from other faiths. Some really are Christian, some are not.

50 posted on 05/10/2008 12:19:17 PM PDT by Domandred (McCain's 'R' is a typo that has never been corrected)
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