Willow Creek's 'Huge Shift' Influential megachurch moves away from seeker-sensitive services.

CT ^ | 15 June 2008 | Matt Branaugh

[Lilllabettt]

Nothing so treacherous as a Trappist glancing with interest at the Carthusians.

The horror, the horror! ;)

[wmfights]

What I need is a Savior.

Amen!

I think that is where the dissatisfaction stems from. They reach a point where they begin to realize they need a Saviour and know that their relationship with Jesus is not what it should be. I think this a wonderful step in the right direction.

[pby]

I think the "new revelation" thing needs to be defined.

Exactly.

No revelation is not the same as insight.

Lectio is supposed to engender "new" personal insight, not new dogma.

Yep.

[pby]

A modern example is Blessed Teresa of Calcutta. She is considered by many to be a first rate mystic ...

Unfortunately, she is also considered by many to be a Universalist.

[pby]

There are many forms of prayer. Discursive is one, but not the only one.

Well...since Protestants form their doctrine on prayer from the Bible, and not church tradition, we disagree because the Bible holds to one form.

Some are called to other practice of prayer. It is always to be under proper guidance by a competent spiritual director.

Protestants don't have, or need, "spiritual directors".

Protestants don't pray by emptying their minds through breathing, body posture and relaxation techniques. We don't come to know God through "silence". Our revelation of God comes through the completed Scriptures.

[griffin]

Excellent post.

[pby]

In Mother Teresa's book, Life in the Spirit: Reflections, Meditations and Prayers, she says: “We never try to convert those who receive [aid from Missionaries of Charity] to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of God’s presence and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for this better men — simply better — we will be satisfied. It matters to the individual what church he belongs to. If that individual thinks and believes that this is the only way to God for her or him, this is the way God comes into their life — his life. If he does not know any other way and if he has no doubt so that he does not need to search then this is his way to salvation.” (Pages 81-82)

She made many similar statements.

In contrast, Jesus Christ said, "I am the way, and the truth and the life: no one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

[griffin]

“This “huge shift” ain’t good! “

You’re correct. Exit seeker-sensitive churches. Enter the emerging and emergant churches. Makes me want to scream. The lines are very blurred.

[griffin]

Nail on the Head. Gud Jub!

“They also, falsely, believe that the Church’s primary reason for existing is evangelism. It is not. It exists for God’s glory and for the edification of the saints.

Seeker sensitive worship is the antithesis of Paul’s direction and therfore unbiblical (not glorifying to God).”

[D-fendr]

we disagree because the Bible holds to one form.

Do you discursively pray without ceasing? What constant chatter that must be.

We don't come to know God through "silence".

"Be still and know that I am God."

Protestants don't pray by emptying their minds through breathing,..

Another common misconception; you are never "empty" or alone. What is in your mind or psyche if you empty it of you?

Protestants don't have, or need, "spiritual directors".

Surely wisdom and experience is valued by Protestants; or does each start anew? Dangerous and unnecessary.

Our revelation of God comes through the completed Scriptures.

This wouldn't be the "personal revelation" you criticized earlier would it?

Thanks for your reply.

[D-fendr]

Can you share God’s love without sharing Jesus as well?

“Preach the gospel. And if necessary, use words.” - St. Francis of Assisi

[AD from SpringBay]

Here's another one, written in 2004:

Dogs & Doghouses - Rethinking Church

[PAR35]

I hope you are right, but I’m wondering if book and tape sales have slowed, and he’s decided that he can sell a new set of material to everyone who bought the first set.

[Lilllabettt]

The quote you reference speaks to the principle of "invincible ignorance."

That is, if a Hindu is utterly convinced, because of his upbringing, social situation, etc. that Hinduism is the truth, and because of this he never feels the need to even consider anything else, then God in His Mercy, could intervene in some mysterious, extraordinary, and unseen way, allowing this Hindu to somehow participate in the death and ressurection of the Lord JESUS, thus saving the poor sap.

So, yes, Virginia, there may be Hindus in Heaven. The Lord JESUS can bring anyone He wants to the Father

That said, the Missionaries of Charity have converted many, many people on their deathbeds. I know of one specific AIDS patient of theirs in Washington DC who was baptized in the nick of time.

They did not do it through arguing apologetics. Blessed Teresa's idea was: "You believe your religion is right and mine is wrong. Fine. Live with me, and let's see whose religion is true." And then she lived the truth.

[pby]

"Be still and know that I am God."

Ah...yes, Psalm 46:10. Lets see it in context (NASB):

1God is our (A)refuge and strength, [b]A very (B)present help (C)in trouble. 2Therefore we will (D)not fear, though (E)the earth should change And though (F)the mountains slip into the heart of the sea; 3Though its (G)waters roar and foam, Though the mountains quake at its swelling pride. Selah. 4There is a (H)river whose streams make glad the (I)city of God, The holy (J)dwelling places of the Most High. 5God is (K)in the midst of her, she will not be moved; God will (L)help her when morning dawns. 6The nations (M)made an uproar, the kingdoms tottered; He (N)raised His voice, the earth (O)melted. 7The LORD of hosts (P)is with us; The God of Jacob is (Q)our stronghold. Selah. 8Come, (R)behold the works of the LORD, Who has wrought (S)desolations in the earth. 9He (T)makes wars to cease to the end of the earth; He (U)breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two; He (V)burns the chariots with fire. 10"Cease striving and (W)know that I am God; I will be (X)exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth." 11The LORD of hosts is with us; The God of Jacob is our stronghold. Selah.

The Hebrew is better translated "cease striving" as in put down your weapons and do not worry for God shall vanquish, or has vanquished, Israel's enemies.

This wouldn't be the "personal revelation" you criticized earlier would it?

Nope...I was referring to Scripture, itself, as the revelation.

[pby]

According to the Bible, there is only one way that salvation in Christ comes about:

"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." (Romans 10:17, NASB)

[pby]

Preach the Gospel...yes

Because saving faith only comes through the hearing of the Word of Christ. (Romans 10:17, NASB)

You and I won't agree on the doctrines that divide Catholics and Protestants. The closest we will come is that I have an uncle that is a bishop and another that is a priest in the RC church. I am sure that they would agree with you.

[Lilllabettt]

According to the Bible, there is only one way that salvation in Christ comes about: "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." (Romans 10:17, NASB)

Not to be flippant here ... but what about the deaf? Seriously, the pagan born in deepest Africa, who, through no fault of his own, has never heard the name of JESUS, cannot be saved by JESUS?

Almighty God Himself cannot choose to bring people to Himself except this certain way?

I'd also like to point out that the Scripture you site points out the ordianry way, but does not exclude other ways, of bringing people to salvation through Christ.

[pby]

I'd also like to point out that the Scripture you site points out the ordianry way, but does not exclude other ways, of bringing people to salvation through Christ.

It is the only way that salvation in Christ occurred in Scripture.

That is why in Romans 1, the Apostle Paul states that he is under obligation to give the Gospel to Greeks, non-Greeks, the wise, and the foolish. He was eager to preach the Gospel and he was not ashamed of it because: "it is the power of God for salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: The righteous shall live by faith." (Romans 1:14-17)

[4Godsoloved..Hegave]

Thank you for this ping! This is the church the Lord used to awaken me from the dead. Yet I have not been back there since 9 months after I was saved because it was nothing more than colostrum for me. I probably will never step foot back in there but it does my heart good that maybe they will “feed the sheep” more than they have desired to for many, many years.

To God alone be the glory!!!