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THE PRIESTHOOD DEBATE
EWTN ^ | 4/1/1996 | James Akin

Posted on 06/02/2008 8:01:12 PM PDT by annalex

THE PRIESTHOOD DEBATE

James Akin

I. Opening Remarks

When I was an Evangelical, I originally held the same view of the priesthood that my opponent does. I viewed it as a man-made institution which robbed the faithful of their place as God's priests. I even quoted the same verses that my opponent does—the ones about us being a "kingdom of priests" or a "royal priesthood," depending on the translation you are using.

But over the course of time, I began to realize that merely quoting those verses did not settle the issue. The Bible has far more to say on the subject.

An embarrassment of riches

Tonight I would like to share with you some of the Biblical insights that convinced me the Protestant understanding of the priesthood is wrong. I must admit that I have an embarrassment of riches on this subject. There are simply too many biblical passages and arguments for me to get to tonight. In fact some of the material I want to share with you will have to wait until later in the evening. But for now I need to say a few words about the subject of tonight's debate.

We are not here to discuss "Father," celibacy, bad priests

We are not here to discuss why Catholics call their priests, "Father," why they have a celibate priesthood, or why there may be bad priests. If I have time, I will be more than happy to say a few words about these issues in one of my rebuttal periods, but for now we need to focus on the real subject of tonight's debate. This is the question of whether there is a sacramental priesthood in the New Testament.

Here are a few of the biblical insights

To show you that there is, here are a few of the insights that led me to realize just how unbiblical the standard, Protestant position on the priesthood is.

Insight #1: The Kingdom of priests verses

1. Catholics believe this doctrine, too

First, there are the verses my opponent has quoted about all believers being priests, that we are a "kingdom of priests" or a "royal priesthood." Evangelicals often think this is a uniquely Protestant doctrine, but it's not. Catholics also affirm that all believers are priests. The only difference is that they call this doctrine the "universal priesthood" instead of "the priesthood of all believers." Catholics quote exactly the same verses Protestants do to show that all believers are priests. The writings of the popes and the councils are very firm on saying that ordinary Christians share a common priesthood. We are all priests who can offer intercessions, praises, and spiritual sacrifices.

2. Exodus 19:6

But if that's so, why do Catholics claim that, in addition to the common, universal priesthood, there is also a special ministerial priesthood? Well, it's because the very same verses which talk about the universal priesthood imply that there is a non-universal one. If you have a good Bible, those verses should have a footnote referencing you to Exodus 19:6. When we turn to that passage, we read that God tells the nation of Israel:

"And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."

3. The Old Testament History: Kingdom of Priests

So it isn't just the Church which is a kingdom of priests. Israel was a kingdom of priests, too. This came home to me in a very forceful way a few years ago when a history of Old Testament Israel was released by Baker Book House. The book is called, Kingdom of Priests, and the author is an Old Testament professor at Dallas Theological Seminary. So even mainstream Evangelicals, like the folks at Baker Book House and Dallas Theological Seminary, recognize that Israel was a kingdom of priests.

4. Exodus 19:21-22: Ministerial priests

But that did not stop Israel from having a special, ministerial priesthood. In fact, if you keep reading in Exodus 19, when you get down to verse 21 & 22, you will find God telling Moses to warn the people and the priests not to come onto the holy mountain, lest the Lord break out against them. So even in the very same chapter God is calling the whole nation a kingdom of priests, there is still a separate, ministerial priesthood.

5. This was not the Levitical priesthood

Incidentally, this priesthood was not the Levitical priesthood. That wasn't created until much later in Exodus. This one was not founded on the Law of Moses, but predated the Law, meaning no one can say it was only God's pattern to have special, ministerial priests under the Mosaic economy. God had priests long before the Mosaic law, as indicated not only by this priesthood in Exodus 19, but by Moses' father-in-law, Jethro, and by Abraham's contemporary, Melchizedek.

6. The argument from parallelism

a. My opponent's parallels

Now in tonight's discussion, my opponent has pointed out that today we have Jesus as our high priest and we are all individual priests. This is quite true, and it is the same situation that existed in the Old Testament. There was a single high priest at the top, and there was the universal priesthood of all Old Testament believers at the bottom. But in addition to those two, there was also that middle, ministerial priesthood that was ordained and served Israel full-time.

b. The Old Testament parallels today

The same situation exists today. We have Jesus as our great, high priest at the top, and there is the universal priesthood of all New Testament believers at the bottom. But the Bible indicates there is also a middle, ministerial priesthood that is ordained to serve the Church full-time.

7. I'm happy!

For this reason, I am happy when my opponent insists that Jesus is our high priest or that we are all individually priests. I am overjoyed, since all he is doing is making my case for me. Because if that top level of high priest in the Old Testament corresponds to a high priest in the New Testament, and if that bottom level of universal priests in the Old Testament corresponds to a universal priesthood in the New Testament, then the middle, ministerial priesthood in the Old Testament corresponds to a middle, ministerial priesthood in the New Testament as well. My opponent can harp on those verses until he is blue in the face and I will be delighted, because the more he shows that Jesus is our high priest and that we are universal priests, the more he argues that there is a middle, ministerial priesthood as well.

Insight #2: The word "priest"

Now that was the first insight I wanted to share with you that led me to conclude there is a New Testament priesthood. The second is something I discovered when pondering the different offices in the Catholic Church. In my Protestant congregation, we had elders and deacons. I knew that the Catholic Church had deacons, but I had never heard of a Catholic elder. "Why was that?" I wondered. The answer involves a little lesson in translation.

1. The origin of the word

In Greek, the word for elder is presbuteros. That word was transliterated into Latin as presbyter, which then in English became shortened to priest. That's why you never hear about "Catholic elders." It is because Catholic priests are Catholics elders. That's what the word "priest" means; it is simply a shortened English form of presbuteros. You can check any dictionary you want to confirm this. So obviously we can say that there is some kind of priesthood today because there are elders today.

2. Examples from the Douay-Rheims

In fact, if you read some older Catholic translations of the Bible, they will use the word "priest," entirely appropriately, where the Protestant Bible says "elder." For example, this is the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, which is the Catholic equivalent of the King James Version.

In Titus 1:5, Paul tells Titus: "For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldst ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee."

In James 5:14-15 we read: "Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil, in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man; and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him."

This last passage leads us to the third insight I wanted to share with you tonight—the fact that the New Testament priesthood is a sacramental priesthood.

Insight #3: The New Testament Priesthood is sacramental

1. The definition of a sacrament

People often have messed up notions of what a sacrament is, so to try to clear the air I wish to begin by offering the historic definition of what a sacrament is—the definition that has been used all through Christian history, from Catholic giants such as Augustine and Aquinas to Protestant giants such as Luther and Calvin. The bottom line is this: Sacraments are outward, physical means that communicate God's grace to us. Contrary to the hysterical claims of some, sacraments are not magic; they do not bend God to human will. They are the Biblical ways that God himself has appointed for us to reach out and humbly receive his grace.

2. The sacrament of holy anointing

Here in James 5 we have the priests of the church—that is, the presbyters or "elders" of the church—distributing the sacrament of holy anointing. The priests come in, anoint the sick person with oil, and pray over him so that he might be raised up and forgiven any sins he has committed.

When I discovered this passage in the book of James as a Protestant, I was disturbed because I recognized that my Protestant church was simply out of synch with the Bible on this point. It was in disobedience to Scripture and had made void God's word by its human tradition of ignoring this sacrament and pretending that baptism and communion are the only two sacraments.

3. The sacrament of reconciliation

a. John 20:21-23

The reference to the sacrament of holy anointing forgiving a person's sins also leads us to another sacrament the priests of the Church administer. In John 20:21-23, Jesus tells his ministers, "Receive the Holy Spirit. . . . Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven; whoever's sins you retain, they are retained."

b. My former evangelical interpretations

When I was a Protestant I tried to force this passage to mean something about the preaching of the gospel, or about proclaiming people forgiven after they already have been forgiven by God. But I realized that this put Jesus' order backwards. He did not say, "If they are forgiven by God, then you forgive them." He said, "If you forgive them then they are forgiven." I finally had to admit that Jesus meant exactly what he said: When his ministers forgive or retain sins, those sins are forgiven or retained.

c. "But only God can forgive sins!"

"But only God can forgive sins!" Well, that was the cry of the Pharisees when they saw Jesus forgive a man. But if you read Matthew's gospel, you find out that Jesus did not forgive the sins in his divine capacity as God. He stated that the "Son of man" has authority on earth to forgive sins. And in Matthew 9:8, the crowd glorified God because, as the gospel-writer himself tells us, God had given such authority to men.

So men are instruments God uses to channel his own forgiveness. Jesus meant exactly what he said. His ministers have the power to forgive and retain sins, and my Protestant church was simply out of synch with the Bible on this point. Again, it made void the word of God by its human tradition of pretending this sacrament does not exist. In doing so, it warped the spiritual development of countless individuals.

4. The sacrament of ordination

But not only is the New Testament priesthood sacramental because it administers sacraments. It is also sacramental because one gains the priesthood by a sacrament, the sacrament of holy orders or ordination.

When I was a Protestant I did a major Bible study on the Holy Spirit and discovered that it is God's pattern throughout the Bible, both Old Testament and New, to give the Holy Spirit to his ministers on the occasion of their ordination, to empower them for the ministry he had just elevated them to.

a. John 20:22: "Receive the Holy Spirit"

In the New Testament we find this pattern in John 20:22, for example. When Jesus commissions his ministers to forgive sins, he tells them "Receive the Holy Spirit" and then breathes on them.

b. 2 Tim 1:6

We find the same pattern in 2 Timothy 1:6, when Paul urges his protégé to fulfill his ministry and says: "I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands."

c. 1 Tim 4:14

He spoke of the same thing in 1 Timothy 4:14, where Paul explains how he must fulfill his ministry as an evangelist and tells him: "Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you."

Other translators render this "which was given you . . . with the laying on of hands for the presbytery" or "in order to become a member of the presbytery."

d. 1 Tim. 5:19-22: Pass it on!

This gift of the Holy Spirit, through the laying on of hands in ordination, was something Paul instructed Timothy to pass on in the future. Part of his duty as a bishop-evangelist was to ordain elders in different congregations. He tells Timothy he must exercise this ministry carefully, lest he ordain a priest unworthy of the office. In 1 Timothy 5:19-22 he tells the young evangelist: "Never admit any charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. . . . Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor participate in another man's sins; keep yourself pure."

Paul tells Timothy not to lay hands on an elder too quickly; don't ordain him until he has been tested and shown to be of excellent character. Otherwise Timothy will share in his sins.

e. The result in history: apostolic succession

Timothy, as well as Titus and other early evangelist-bishops, carried out this ministry of ordaining priests, and the result is what we have today in the Catholic Church: a sacramental priesthood with a chain of ordinations running straight back to the first century, whose links can be clearly documented from Church history.

Priesthood and sacrifice

A. The Universal Priesthoods

1. New Testament: Spiritual sacrifices

Of course every priesthood has sacrifices to offer. As 1 Peter 2:5 states, we in the universal priesthood have spiritual sacrifices we give to God. Romans 12:1 says we offer our bodies. Philippians 4:18 says we offer our donations. And Hebrews 13:15-16 state that we offer our praise, our good deeds, and our sharing with others.

2. Old Testament: Spiritual sacrifices too (Hos 14:2)

These were the same things offered by ordinary Jews as members of the Old Testament universal priesthood. They could pray to God; they could offer him praises; they could offer donations and good deeds; and they could offer their bodies in his service. In all of those things they were like us, offering up their own spiritual sacrifices to God. In fact, one of the references I cited, Hebrews 13:15-16, which says we offer the sacrifice of praise, the fruit of our lips, is a reference to the Hosea 14:2, in which the Israelites are urged to promise to offer him the sacrifice of their lips in praise.

B. The ministerial priesthoods

1. The Old Testament priesthoods: drink, grain, animal

But formal, ministerial priests have a separate set of offerings. This is true both in the Old Testament and the New.

In the Old Testament the most notable sacrifices the priests offered were the drink offerings, the grain offerings, and the animal offerings that were prescribed by the Law of Moses.

2. New Testament priesthood

a. The priestly duty of preaching

i. Rom 15:15-16

The Bible indicates New Testament priests offer at least two sacrifices. One of them is discussed in Romans 15:15-16. In the New International Version of this passage, we read:

"I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit."

Paul tells us that because he has been given a calling as a professional minister of Christ, he has a priestly duty of preaching the gospel so that the Gentiles may be an offering—a sacrifice to God.

ii. Every elder in every church

This is not something only he has. Every elder in every church has that same "priestly duty" of preaching the gospel. So Paul here conceives of the office of the New Testament minister as a priestly office.

iii. Ministers as priests, not the congregation

Notice that the hearers of the gospel in this passage are not depicted as priests, but as the sacrifice to God. Paul draws a distinction between himself and his duty of preaching the gospel, and his readers and their duty of hearing it. It is the minister, not the congregation, who is here pictured as priest.

b. The Eucharist

i. The name of the sacrament

But converts to the faith are not the only sacrifice our New Testament elder-priests are to offer. They are also charged with distributing the sacraments, and one sacrament in particular has a sacrificial character: communion, or the Eucharist, as the Bible refers to it in the Greek text of Mark 14:23, Luke 22:19, and 1 Corinthians 11:24.

ii. The separation of the body and blood

To show you the sacrificial dimension to communion, note that Jesus first says that the bread is his body and then that the wine is his blood. Whether this is literally or symbolically true is a question beyond the scope of our debate tonight. What I want to point out is that the bread and the wine, the body and blood, are separate. The sacrament thus shows his body and blood in a state of separation from each other, in a state of sacrifice.

iv. Joachim Jeremias agrees

The famous Protestant scholar Joachim Jeremias points this out in his book, The Eucharistic Words of Jesus, which Protestant scholars have come to regard as the definitive work on this subject. He states: "... When Jesus speaks of 'his flesh' and 'his blood' . . . he is applying to himself terms from the language of sacrifice . . . Each of the two nouns presupposes a slaying that has separated flesh and blood. In other words: Jesus speaks of himself as a sacrifice" p. 222.

v. Symbolic or literal

By displaying the body and blood in a state of separation, the elements display a sacrificial character. This is true regardless of whether Christ is literally present in the sacrament or whether he is only symbolically present. Even if he is only symbolically present, then the Eucharist symbolizes a sacrifice. It is a symbolic sacrifice. Because elders have the duty of performing the sacraments, they have the duty of performing this sacrifice, again indicating the priestly character of their office.

vi. "Do this in memory of me"

Further confirmation is found in the words Jesus used to instruct his ministers to perform it. His statement, "Do this in remembrance of me," may also be translated, "Offer this as my memorial sacrifice"—a fact Protestant preachers never mention when they talk about this passage. But it has a most important bearing on our discussion tonight, because by telling the apostles to offer his memorial sacrifice, Jesus clearly ordained them as his priests.

vii. Symbolic or literal again

This is true regardless of whether Jesus is actually or only symbolically present in the elements. I recognized this fact even when I was still a Protestant: Regardless of the doctrine of the Real Presence, the sacrament of communion is a sacrifice, just as the early Church said it was, and just as the Christian Church throughout the ages has understood it.

II. Closing Remarks

As we have seen, while the Bible clearly states that all Christians are priests, it said the same thing about the Israelites, yet this did not prevent there from being a separate, ministerial priesthood even before the Law of Moses was given.

Furthermore, since the top, Old Testament office of high priest corresponds to Jesus, the New Testament high priest, and since the bottom, Old Testament universal priesthood corresponds to the New Testament universal priesthood, the middle, ministerial priesthood in the Old Testament corresponds to a middle, ministerial priesthood in the New Testament.

This priesthood is identical with the office of elder. In fact, the term "priest" is simply a shortened, English version of the Greek word for "elder," as any dictionary will confirm.

The office is sacramental because it is charged with administering the sacraments. The New Testament singles out the sacraments of holy anointing and confession in particular, though it is also charged with administering the other sacraments, such as baptism and communion, or the Eucharist as the Bible calls it.

The office is also sacramental because one receives it through the sacrament of orders or ordination. Paul discussed this sacrament in his letters to Timothy, in which he instructed the young evangelist to stir up the gift that had been given him through the laying on of the Apostle's hands, and in which he instructed him not to lay hands on other people quickly, but to ordain them only after their character had been proven.

Scripture takes this distinction between clergy and laity very seriously. Both Old and New Testaments warn people against assuming an office to which they have not been ordained. For example, I direct your attention to Jude 11, a verse most people gloss over when they read the book. That verse discusses various wicked Church leaders and states,

"Woe to them! For they walk in the way of Cain, and abandon themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error, and perish in Korah's rebellion."

All three examples cited in this verse—Cain, Balaam, and Korah—involve religious ministry. Hebrews 11 makes clear that Abel had offered a better sacrifice to God than Cain, for which Cain was jealous. 2 Peter 2 makes clear that Balaam was willing to corrupt his ministry for money.

Most of us know those two examples, but who was Korah and what was his rebellion? The story is found in Numbers 16, and it concerns precisely the issue which is before us today: Whether the fact that all believers are priests means that there is no ministerial priesthood. Korah said it does mean that, and he gathered a rebellion against Moses and Aaron to usurp the priesthood from them. Numbers 16 says: "Now Korah . . . and Dathan and Abiram . . . took men; and they rose up before Moses, with a number of the people of Israel, two hundred and fifty leaders of the congregation, chosen from the assembly, well-known men; and they assembled themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said . . . 'You have gone too far! For all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them; why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the LORD?'"

"When Moses heard it, he fell on his face; and he said . . . "In the morning the LORD will show who is his, and who is holy . . . Do this: take censers . . . put fire in them and put incense upon them before the LORD tomorrow, and the man whom the LORD chooses shall be the holy one. You have gone too far, sons of Levi! . . . Is it too small a thing for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the congregation of Israel . . . would you seek the priesthood also? Therefore it is against the LORD that you and all your company have gathered together; what is Aaron that you murmur against him?"

After this you can guess what happened. The men loaded up their censers and tried to offer incense before the Lord, but God caused the earth to open its mouth and swallow up Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, then he caused fire to come out of the Tabernacle and swallow up the two hundred and fifty men offering incense, showing that they were not to be priests, not the ones to offer incense, even though God had said that in one sense the whole congregation were priests.

Moses also had to intercede to keep God from killing those in the congregation who merely supported Korah, even though they did not themselves offer incense. Later, when the people grumbled after Korah was dead, Moses again had to intervene to stop God from killing them all, but almost 15,000 of them died anyway for being followers of Korah.

It is against this sin that the book of Jude warns us, because the same thing can happen in the New Testament age. Don't think you can confine the warning against Korah's rebellion to the Old Testament age. Jude tells us it was going on in his day as well.

Just as Korah, Dathan, and Abiram came along and said, "Hey, in Exodus 19 God said we are all priests, so we don't need a ministerial priesthood; we can do that ourselves!" today people come along and say, "Hey, in 1 Peter and Revelation God said we are all priests, so we don't need a ministerial priesthood; we can do that ourselves!"

It is against this erroneous conclusion that the book of Jude warns us, proclaiming that people who fall into this error perish in the rebellion of Korah. In the New Testament age there were people rising up and assuming the priesthood who had not been authorized to do so, and Jude records their judgment for us.

For this reason, we must not listen to those who spread this erroneous doctrine. People had to ignore such preaching in the day of Moses. They had to ignore it in the day of Jude. And they have to ignore it today, even if the person spreading the error is himself a former priest. We must stay faithful to the word of God and keep to our position as universal priests, not assuming a priesthood to which we have not been ordained. Failure to do this puts us in danger of perishing in the same rebellion that Numbers and the book of Jude warn us against.

God will judge those of us here tonight for what we have seen. If we abandon our proper place as universal priests and usurp the ministerial priesthood, we will be judged. Furthermore, we will be judged if we follow those who have usurped the priesthood, just as Korah's followers were in danger of judgment in his day. This is too serious a matter, and God punishes those who do not worship in his appointed way, in union with his appointed priests.

Thank you.


Appendices To The Debate

A. Old Testament Ordinations

To give some Old Testament examples of the Holy Spirit being given a ordinations, in Numbers 11:16-30 the seventy elders of Israel received the Spirit at the time of their ordination.

Similarly, in Deuteronomy 34:9, after Joshua succeeded Moses we are told that he had the Spirit in him because Moses had laid his hand on him in ordination, which happened back in Numbers 27:18-23. The Jewish high priest also had a deposit of the Spirit by virtue of his office. This is made clear by John 11:51, where John tells us the high priest issued a prophecy because he was "high priest that year".

B. "Offer this as my memorial sacrifice"

In Greek, these words are Touto poiete eis tan emain anamnesin. They are usually translated into English as "Do this in remembrance of me," but this does not do full justice to the words.

First of all, the word poiein or "do" has sacrificial overtones. This can be seen by examining the way it is used in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament. As Protestant theologian D. M. Baillie says in his book The Theology of the Sacraments: "There is no doubt that this verb is used frequently in the LXX in a cult or sacrificial sense. Gore says there are from 60 to 80 instances."

He then goes on to give examples. For instance, Exodus 29:38: "This is that which you shall offer (poieseis) upon the altar: two lambs . . . " Here the verb poiein should clearly be translated as "offer," as all the Protestant translations of this passage have it. I checked the King James, the Revised Standard, and the New International Version, and they all render it as "offer."

Just to name a couple other verses where poiein has the same sacrificial meaning, look up Leviticus 9:7 and Psalms 66:15. The first literally says in the Septuagint: "Moses said to Aaron, 'Come to the altar and do your sin offering and your burnt offering and make atonement for yourself and the people; sacrifice the offering that is for the people and make atonement for them, as the LORD has commanded.'"

The second says: "I will do fat animals to you and an offering of rams; I will offer bulls and goats. Selah"

Jesus' word anamnesis, usually translated "remembrance," also has sacrificial overtones. For example, in the NIV of Hebrews 10:3 we read, "But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins." The word for "reminder" in this passage is anamnesis. The passage thus tells us that these sacrifices are an annual anamnesis, an annual memorial offering, on behalf of the sins of the people. In fact, all of the occurrences of this word in the Protestant Bible, both in New Testament and the Greek Old Testament, occur in a sacrificial context.

An anamnesis of a memorial offering which one brings before God to prompt his remembrance. The thought is the same as when the Psalmist urges God to remember him, or the congregation, or Mount Zion, or how the enemy scoffs, or how God's servant has been mistreated.

The idea of a memorial offering is to present the gift to God and prompt him to take action. For example, in the NIV of Numbers 10:10 we read: "Also at your times of rejoicing . . . you are to sound the trumpets over your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, and they will be a memorial (the Septuagint word here is anamnesis) for you before your God."

Joachim Jeremias admits this in his book. While liberal Protestant scholarship tried to interpret the Lord's Supper as a pagan memorial meal which merely commemorated a loved one, Jeremias saw through this and recognized the Palestinian background for the Lord's Supper and its offering of the elements to God to prompt his remembrance of Jesus and what he did.

In his book, the Eucharistic Word of Jesus, Joachim Jeremias states: "The command for repetition of the Lord's Supper may be translated: 'This do, that God may remember me.' How is this to be understood? Here an old Passover prayer is illuminating. On Passover evening a prayer is inserted into the third benediction of the grace after the meal, a prayer which asks God to remember the Messiah. . . . In this very common prayer, which is also used on other festival days, God is petitioned at every Passover concerning 'the remembrance of the Messiah'" p. 252.

So Jesus' command to the disciples to "do this in memory" of him was a command to present the elements to God as an anamnesis, as a memorial sacrifice to bring to God's mind the work that Jesus did on the cross for us. The statement, Totou poiete eis tan emen anamnesin

C. The "once for all" sacrifice

My opponent has demanded that the fact Hebrews says Christ was sacrificed once for all implies that there is no Eucharistic sacrifice.

However, in my opening remarks I stressed that even if Christ is not present then the Eucharist symbolizes a sacrifice—a fact any Protestant theologian will admit. So even by Protestant admission, the Eucharist a symbolic sacrifice.

Now how does this relate to Hebrews? Well, if Christ were only symbolically offered in the elements then this obviously would not conflict with the fact that Christ died once for all. So even on my opponent's own theory of how Christ is present, he has no grounds to complain.

Under the terms of our debate, I have no burden in this debate to address the question of how the sacrifice of communion relates to the sacrifice of the cross. I have already shown abundant reasons, completely apart from the Eucharistic sacrifice, why there is a sacramental priesthood today. I simply note that even on my opponent's own theory of Christ's presence it does not conflict with the sacrifice of the cross.

But what if the doctrine of the Real Presence is true? Again there is no conflict with Hebrews. Let me warn my opponent that I will not be drawn into a discussion of the Real Presence. That is a separate subject from tonight's debate. If he had wanted to debate the Real Presence, then he should have asked to debate that topic instead of insisting on this one.

To be frankly honest with you, I have no responsibility to go into the Eucharistic sacrifice at all. My onus in this debate is to argue that there is a sacramental priesthood in the New Testament. I have shown that there are sacraments that New Testament ministers dispense, and I have shown that there is a priesthood because of Paul's reference to the minister's "priestly duties" in Romans 15. I have thus shown sacraments and sacrifice without appealing to the Eucharist. Whether there is a Eucharistic sacrifice at all is irrelevant to the proposition before us tonight. That is simply an additional sacrifice the Bible shows New Testament ministers offer in addition to the other one I have shown.

However, I will go beyond my responsibility and show how, on the Catholic understanding of Christ's presence, the Eucharistic sacrifice does not conflict with the fact Christ died once for all. Indeed, Catholics are the first to insist that Christ died once for all. He died on the cross one time, and neither has died or can die after that time. This fact in no way conflicts with the Eucharistic offering of Christ to God as a living anamnesis, as a living sacrifice, as the Apostle Paul would say.

People who say the fact Christ died only once prevents a Eucharistic sacrifice have gotten this notion because they believe that in order for a sacrifice to occur there must be a death. But people who say this don't know their Bibles very well, because there were many sacrifices in the Bible, such as the Old Testament drink offerings and grain offerings, in which no death occurred. Similarly, in the spiritual sacrifices offered by Old and New Testament believers, there is no death.

Death is not an essential part of a sacrifice. The essence of a sacrifice is the idea of presenting a gift to the deity. This gift may or may not be presented to God by killing it. There are numerous sacrifices in the Bible in which the gift is not killed. In fact, there is a class of sacrifices, known as "wave offerings" in which the gift is "waved" before God to present it to him. In wave offerings it is not at all required for the gift to be destroyed.

For example, if you read Numbers 8:11-21, you will see that the entire tribe of Levi was waved before God as a wave offering to consecrate them as ministers at the Tabernacle. So God's ministers present themselves as a wave offering to God.

If you read Romans 12:1, you find out that we present ourselves to God as wave offerings, for Paul tells us to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice.

It is in this manner that the resurrected Jesus presents himself to God, as a wave offering, a living sacrifice, a living memorial offering that God may remember what he did on the cross and bestow upon us the graces of salvation. By his intercessory ministry in heaven, Christ continually presents to God what he did on the cross, he continually brings it before God as a memorial offering of what he did in the past, so that we might receive God's grace.

Thus in Hebrews 9:23 we read: "It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices plural, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."

And in Hebrews 13:10 we read: "We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat."

The Methodist author George Wesley Buchannan also agrees in his commentary on Hebrews in the Anchor Bible Commentary, meaning we have attestation to the Eucharist as sacrifice from numerous Protestant sources of different denominations:
George Wesley Buchannan—Methodist
Joachim Jeremias—Lutheran
D. M. Baille—Presbyterian
Plus numerous Anglicans

D. Things we are not here to discuss

In my opening remarks I mentioned that there were certain subjects related to the priesthood which, while not part of our debate topic tonight, are ones I would be willing to say a few words about because of the interest Protestants have in them.

a. Why Catholics call priests "Father"

The first is why Catholics call their priests "Father." After all, Protestants say, didn't Jesus say not to call any man your father? Indeed he did. But there is a question about how his words are to be interpreted.

Catholics recognize that his words here are a form of hyperbole, an exaggeration to make a point, just as when he commanded us sinners to gouge out your eye or cut off your hand in Matthew 18:8-9, just a few chapters before.

Even the most hard-core Protestants will admit that his words are hyperbole, because if you took them literally you would not even be able to call your own dad, "Father," and if we could not call our earthly fathers this then it would rob the metaphor of our heavenly father of all meaning.

So we know that Jesus' words are hyperbole. We must therefore figure out how hyperbolic his words are. For this we must not rely on our own opinions, but read scripture in terms of scripture, to allow other passages to tell us how to interpret this one.

When we look elsewhere in the New Testament, we find that his words do not literally forbid calling religious leaders "father" because there are numerous examples of the apostles using this very terminology for themselves.

For example, in 1 Corinthians 4.15, Paul states that Christ is the father of the Corinthians in the gospel. In 1 Thessalonians 2:11 he states how he has dealt with the Thessalonians as a father with his children. In Philippians 2:22 he compares his labor with Timothy as a father's with his son. In 1 Timothy 1:18 he refers to Timothy as "my son." In 1 Timothy 5:1 he tells Timothy to treat elders—that's priests—as fathers. In 2 Timothy 2:1 he again calls Timothy "my son." And in 1 Peter 5:13 Peter refers to Mark as "my son."

So by the example of Scripture itself, we know that Jesus words do not prevent describing religious leaders as "father." Remember: Paul told Timothy to regard elders—priests—as fathers. Christ's words are hyperbole, just as when he said to gouge our eyes out.

b. Priestly celibacy

There is a great deal of misunderstanding in this area. In fact, only the Latin rite of the Catholic Church has a celibate priesthood. The eastern rites of the Roman Catholic Church have married priesthoods. It is only the Latin rite which has instituted, as an internal, disciplinary decision, to make policy the apostle Paul's advice to ministers to be celibate.

Even the Latin rite makes exceptions to this rule. For example, if ministers from other denominations become Catholic, as many have recently, they are allowed to become priests even though they are already married. In fact, one of our chaplains at Catholic Answers is a married priest. And there are other exceptions, too. Some priests are given permission to marry and still celebrate Mass privately.

All of this is a matter of discipline, not doctrine. The Bible does not require priests to be celibate. It is not a matter of doctrine, and the Catholic Church can change the discipline whenever necessary. It simply requires it because it is a good idea for ministers to be celibate, just as Protestant denominations often require ministers to have seminary degrees, not because the Bible says so, but because it is a good idea.

And it is a good idea for ministers to be celibate. The Bible itself says so. If you read 2 Timothy 2:4 Paul tells Timothy that as a soldier of Christ he should not get involved in civilian affairs, such as having a wife and raising a family. Paul himself too this advice and remained celibate, as he says in 1 Corinthians 7:7-8 and 9:5.

Thus the tradition of priestly celibacy goes all the way back to the apostle Paul himself. And it was shared by others in the first century. We know that some first century religious were taking vows of celibacy, because in 1 Timothy 5:11-12, Paul regulates an order of widows, forerunners of modern nuns, and indicates it has a vow of celibacy as one of its entrance requirements. This was valuable because, while marriage is good, celibacy is better since it allows a person uninterrupted devotion to the Lord, as Paul states in 1 Cor. 7:32-34, 38.

c. Bad priests

Since every organization on earth is made up of sinful human beings, there are going to be bad priests and bad ministers in every Christian group. As a result, you cannot judge the truth of a theological position by looking at its human ministers, because humans will let you down every time.

I recognized when I was a Protestant that for every Catholic priest you can find who'se done something wrong, you can find a Protestant minister who has run off with his church secretary or organist.

There has always been a bad problem with bad priests because there have always been bad human beings. For example, if you read 1 Samuel 2:22, you will find out that the two priests who were sons of Eli were publicly known for sleeping with the women who served at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. This was the ancient equivalent of sleeping with your church secretary.

Now if you had lived in Old Testament times and judged the religion of Israel by the performance of some of its priests, you would have missed out on the true religion. In the same way today, if you judge the Catholic Church by the performance of some of its priests, the same thing will happen: You will miss out on the true religion of God.

Jesus said that we are to judge a tree by its fruits, but that is a test for the quality of individual ministers, not the truth of religious systems. Even Protestants are quick to point out that one must not judge Protestantism by the performance of some of its most famous ministers, such as Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell.

So there is simply no room for the "bad priests" argument. It is a non-sequitur to the question of truth.

Copyright (c) 1995 by James Akin. All Rights Reserved


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TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism
KEYWORDS: apologetics; catholic; ecumenism; priesthood
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1 posted on 06/02/2008 8:01:12 PM PDT by annalex
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To: Antoninus; ArrogantBustard; celticfreedom; CTK YKC; dan1123; DaveMSmith; DogwoodSouth; ...
This is the Catholic Theology for non-Catholics series.

If you want to be on the Catholic Theology for non-Catholics list but are not on it already, or if you are on it but do not want to be, let me know either publicly or privately.

This is an open thread. I invite all opinions and encourage clear posts on the topic.

On Salvation Outside the Catholic Church
The Great Heresies [Open]
SALVATION PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING
Hermits and Solitaries [Ecumenical]

2 posted on 06/02/2008 8:03:03 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

“I invite all opinions”

Ok. That was REALLY, REALLY long.


3 posted on 06/02/2008 8:14:50 PM PDT by Grunthor (The GOP would be better off LOSING then electing McCain. - MNJohnnie)
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To: annalex

Good post. Thank you.


4 posted on 06/02/2008 8:31:05 PM PDT by informavoracious (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: annalex

Interesting. I didn’t know that Israel was considered a nation of priests. Chaulk up another parallel between Israel and Christ and His Church!


5 posted on 06/02/2008 8:45:21 PM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
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To: annalex

The greeks had a WORD for “priest”.

It is “hiereus”.

The fact that Paul never uses “hiereus” when outlining the offices of the Church should be an eye-opener for you.


6 posted on 06/03/2008 12:00:47 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: annalex; kosta50

“”But only God can forgive sins!” Well, that was the cry of the Pharisees when they saw Jesus forgive a man. But if you read Matthew’s gospel, you find out that Jesus did not forgive the sins in his divine capacity as God. He stated that the “Son of man” has authority on earth to forgive sins. And in Matthew 9:8, the crowd glorified God because, as the gospel-writer himself tells us, God had given such authority to men.

So men are instruments God uses to channel his own forgiveness. Jesus meant exactly what he said. His ministers have the power to forgive and retain sins, and my Protestant church was simply out of synch with the Bible on this point. Again, it made void the word of God by its human tradition of pretending this sacrament does not exist. In doing so, it warped the spiritual development of countless individuals.””

Interesting defense. So far as I know, the notion that the priest actually forgives sins in confession (as opposed to acting as a witness, etc with God doing the forgiving) is peculiar to the Latin Church. I don’t believe any of the particular churches in communion with Rome ascribe to it and I know Orthodoxy does not and never did. Do you know when this notion originally arose?


7 posted on 06/03/2008 3:44:24 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis; annalex
Interesting defense. So far as I know, the notion that the priest actually forgives sins in confession (as opposed to acting as a witness, etc with God doing the forgiving) is peculiar to the Latin Church

This is one of those issues which lends itself to (mis)interpretation. In Matthew 6:14 Jesus is quoted as saying "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you."

He was speaking to the disciples but the people could also hear Him (cf Mat 7:28). This was clearly intended for all (Mat 6:14 follows immediately the Lord's Prayer), and suggests not only that everyone can forgive sins, but that it is imperative to forgive sins if you want your own sins forgiven!

However, at other places (cf Mark 4:4, Luke 3:3, 17:3, 17:4, 24:47, Act 2:38, 5:31, 8:22; notice no Matthew, John or Paul in this) the Bible makes it very clear that repentance must proceed forgiveness. No one is to give blanket forgiveness without repentance.

In the early Church, confessions were made publicly and therefore anyone who heard a man's confession could forgive him according to this rule.

When confessions became private, this was confined to the realm of the priesthood. The condition (forgiveness is not unconditional!) is still repentance which is what confession is.

I believe the Church finds the authority granted to priesthood specifically in John 20:23, where Jesus, having breathed the Holy Spirit (i.e. the power of God, as the Jews understood it), says to the eleven disciples "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

It is an empowerment (authority granted) to forgive sins. They are not the Sheriff, but His deputies, and act on His authority, the way a priest acts on the authority of a bishop.

In other places, the Bible states that forgiveness is incumbent on faith. Does this mean those who do not repent have no faith?

In other places, forgiveness is associated with love and tiered (!): "her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little" [Luke 7:47].

Of course, we can all see how love, faith and repentance are different forms of one and the same Christian mindset and one cannot exist without the other, although in all of us somewhat imperfectly.

Ultimately, forgiveness has to come from the heart of the one who forgives. If I forgive someone and remember their sins no more, it is forgiven. What God does with it is His prerogative. But if the intention is pure and not a formality, not a pretense, the forgiveness is real and you are no longer burdened by the sins of others.

8 posted on 06/03/2008 4:38:05 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: PetroniusMaximus; annalex
The greeks had a WORD for “priest”. It is “hiereus”. The fact that Paul never uses “hiereus” when outlining the offices of the Church should be an eye-opener for you

The "priesthood" (as in ordained priesthood) in those days consisted of elders (bishops) and heir deacons (disciples). Priest are introduced towards the end of the first century (which is why Paul doesn't mention it; and that historical fact should be an eye-opener for you) because the Church became too wide-spread for one bishop and needed deputies. Priests act only under the authority of an apostolic successor, a bishop.

9 posted on 06/03/2008 4:47:44 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: annalex
Now if you had lived in Old Testament times and judged the religion of Israel by the performance of some of its priests, you would have missed out on the true religion. In the same way today, if you judge the Catholic Church by the performance of some of its priests, the same thing will happen: You will miss out on the true religion of God.

******************

Amen.

10 posted on 06/03/2008 4:53:11 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

>> The greeks had a WORD for “priest”. It is “hiereus”. The fact that Paul never uses “hiereus” when outlining the offices of the Church should be an eye-opener for you.
<<

The word, “PREIST” comes directly from the Greek word, “PRESbyter.” What you might, instead, say is that in the letter to the Hebrews, a different word is used for the High Priest (archaeiereus, or ‘iereus), whose role Christ has fulfilled, than is used for the role that Paul appoints people to.

Protestants have argued that Christ abolished the priests referred to in Hebrews. Akin could point out your argument and simply defeat that Protestant argument, but the truth is that Catholic priests do in some ways act like such priests in Hebrews, since they re-enact the sacrifice of Christ by offering their lives for the congregants. So such an argument would be effective, but shallow.

The greater point made by many Protestants is that he Christian notion of a “priesthood of the people” means that there is no set-aside role for anyone with such authority. (This always seemed to me to be a silly argument, since they go and create such leaders, and simply call them “pastors” instead.) But we find that Paul did, in fact, do exactly that.


11 posted on 06/03/2008 6:01:00 AM PDT by dangus
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To: kosta50; PetroniusMaximus; annalex
>> The "priesthood" (as in ordained priesthood) in those days consisted of elders (bishops) and heir deacons (disciples). Priest are introduced towards the end of the first century (which is why Paul doesn't mention it; and that historical fact should be an eye-opener for you) because the Church became too wide-spread for one bishop and needed deputies. Priests act only under the authority of an apostolic successor, a bishop. <<

You'll agree, Kosta, that presbyter, as a separate office from a bishop , emerged only after several decades, but that when Paul uses the term, "presbyter," he is using the term to describe the role of a priest, (that is, one who PRESides over a mass) even if that role is performed by one who is also a bishop, right?

12 posted on 06/03/2008 6:07:49 AM PDT by dangus
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To: annalex

Excellent post.


13 posted on 06/03/2008 7:30:58 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: All
When I was an Evangelical

Which wasn't for very long...

14 posted on 06/03/2008 7:39:55 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: All
THE PRIESTHOOD DEBATE [Open]

"He Called Them Forward" [Roger Cardinal Mahony]

Archbishop Burke to ordain nine to priesthood after making vocations 'top priority'

Vatican says prohibition against gays in seminaries is universal [Open]

The Male Priesthood: The Argument From Sacred Tradition

Priests: Ordinary Men Made Extraordinary by Grace [Holy Orders/Chrism Mass]

Book on Mary turns runaway youngster immersed in drugs and crime into a priest

7 Reasons To Be a Priest

The Nature of Priestly Ordination: Theological Background and Some Present Concerns

Priesthood Sunday -- October 28th -- Serra Club [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]

The Priesthood of Jesus Christ - Body and Blood (Confessional ... Consecration ... and Calvary)

What You {Catholics} Need to Know: Celibacy [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]

New priest finds joy in sacrifice

No shortage of priests in Atlanta, more than 50 seminarians

Debt, the Vocation Killer [Catholic Caucus]

Identical twins become Green Bay priests

A Modern Roman Rite Priest reports on Classical Roman Rite Training

Number of new priests expected to rise in 2007

Father, Mother, Sister, Brother [Part One of a series on Celibacy] -- Catholic Caucus

It Takes a Village of Vocations [Part Two of a series on Celibacy] -- Catholic Caucus

Living Single and Celibate in God’s Service [Part Three of a series on Celibacy] -- Catholic Caucus

Brothers and Sisters in Christ [Part Four of a series on Celibacy] -- Catholic Caucus

The Adventure of the Priesthood [Part Five of a series on Celibacy] -- Catholic Caucus

This Is the Body of Christ [Part Six of a series on Celibacy and Vocations] -- Catholic Caucus

14 men are ordained into the priesthood (at St. Patrick's Cathedral NYC)

To Know, To Love, To Lead (Pope Benedict XVI ordains 22 new priests)

The Indispensable Priesthood -- Holy Thursday, [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]

Why Does the Catholic Church Ordain Only Men to the Priesthood? Part Three[Cath/Orth/Angl Caucus]

Why Does the Catholic Church Ordain Only Men to the Priesthood? Part Two

Why Does the Catholic Church Ordain Only Men to the Priesthood? Part One [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]

Vatican Said (Again!) Not Revising Celibacy Rule

Ordinatio Sacerdotalis

Lesson 21: Holy Matrimony and Holy Orders BY FATHER ROBERT ALTIER

Common Sense for an Uncommon Calling

RC Archdiocese, Lahore Pakistan, Ordains Largest Class of New Priests

Raising Up Priests for the New Millennium

'Chosen' for new life

Is There a Priest Shortage?

I Will Give You Shepherds: Addressing the Priest Shortage

15 posted on 06/03/2008 7:44:18 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Alex Murphy

BWAAAAAHAAAAA!


16 posted on 06/03/2008 7:51:40 AM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: PetroniusMaximus; kosta50; dangus

See Kosta (9) and Dangus (11).


17 posted on 06/03/2008 10:02:59 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50
the notion that the priest actually forgives sins in confession (as opposed to acting as a witness, etc with God doing the forgiving) is peculiar to the Latin Church

Ther is no such notion in the Church, and Akin is not advancing it. He states that priests are "instruments God uses to channel his own forgiveness", in line with the Bible ("whose sins you forgive, etc."), and the patristic teaching on it:

CHRYS. Some say that by breathing He did not give them the Spirit, but made them meet to receive the Spirit. For if Daniel's senses were so overpowered by the sight of the Angel, how would they have been overwhelmed in receiving that unutterable gift, if He had not first prepared them for it! It would not be wrong however to say that they received then the gift of a certain spiritual power, not to raise the dead and do miracles, but to remit sins: Whosoever sins you remit, they are remitted to them, and whosoever sins you retain, they are retained.

AUG. The love of the Church, which is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, remits the sins of those who partake of it; but retains the sins of those who do not. Where then He has said, Receive you the Holy Ghost, He instantly makes mention of the remission and retaining of sins.

GREG. We must understand that those who first received the Holy Ghost, for innocence of life in themselves, and preaching to a few others, received it openly after the resurrection, that they might profit not a few only, but many. The disciples who were called to such works of humility, to what a height of glory are they led! Lo, not only have they salvation for themselves, but are admitted to the powers of the supreme Judgment-seat; so that, in the place of God, they retain some men's sins, and remit others. Their place in the Church, the Bishops now hold; who receive the authority to bind, when they are admitted to the ram; of government. Great the honor, but heavy the burden of the place. It is ill if one who knows not how to govern his own life, shall be judge of another's.

CHRYS. A priest though he may have ordered well his own life, yet, if he have not exercised proper vigilance over others, is sent to hell with the evil doers. Wherefore, knowing the greatness of their danger, pay them all respect, even though they be not men of notable goodness. For they who are in rule, should not be judged by those who are under them. And their incorrectness of life will not at all invalidate what they do by commission from God. For not only cannot a priest, but not even angel or archangel, do any thing of themselves; the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost do all. The priest only furnishes the tongue, and the hand. For it were not just that the salvation of those who come to the Sacraments in faith, should be endangered by another's wickedness.

Catena Aurea John 20

This is the Catechism on this matter:

Only God forgives sin

1441 Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41

1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation."42 The apostle is sent out "on behalf of Christ" with "God making his appeal" through him and pleading: "Be reconciled to God."43

...

1444 In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the Church. This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most notably in Christ's solemn words to Simon Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."45 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head."46

...

1449 The formula of absolution used in the Latin Church expresses the essential elements of this sacrament: the Father of mercies is the source of all forgiveness. He effects the reconciliation of sinners through the Passover of his Son and the gift of his Spirit, through the prayer and ministry of the Church:

God, the Father of mercies,
through the death and the resurrection of his Son
has reconciled the world to himself
and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
through the ministry of the Church
may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.48


39 Cf. Mk 2:7.
40 Mk 2:5,10; Lk 7:48.
41 Cf. Jn 20:21-23.
42 2 Cor 5:18.
43 2 Cor 5:20.
44 Cf. Lk 15; 19:9.
45 Mt 16:19; cf. Mt 18:18; 28:16-20.
46 LG 22 § 2.
47 Tertullian, De Paenit. 4,2:PL 1,1343; cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1542.
48 OP 46: formula of absolution.

THE SACRAMENT OF PENANCE AND RECONCILIATION


18 posted on 06/03/2008 10:41:15 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; kosta50

“...and I absolve you from your sins....”

No other priests say this save the Latin ones to my knowledge. If what Rome means is the patristic understanding, then I suspect Rome could say that. Your patristic quotes are fine, Alex, but it doesn’t change what the Latin priest says. It all reminds me of the arguments about the filioque where Rome posits that it means something other than what it says.


19 posted on 06/03/2008 11:10:10 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50
No other priests say this save the Latin ones

This is tautological: no other priest uses Latin prayers (translated or not) save Latin Rite priests. You have to look at the entire prayer, including the "may God give you pardon" and "in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". The absolution formula does not reflect anything not inthe Catechism, and the Catechism does not reflect anything not in the Bible.

Let me ask you this: suppose Stavros comes to his Orthodox priest and confesses that he lives and shares the bed with his girlfriend despite being married to another woman who he had abandoned. He has no intention to move out or move the girlfriend out. How would the priest witness the lack of absolution without himself, as a free-willed man, taking the decision not to absolve?

20 posted on 06/03/2008 11:34:07 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; kosta50

“How would the priest witness the lack of absolution without himself, as a free-willed man, taking the decision not to absolve?”

That’s easy, Alex. He simply would not read the absolution prayers. The priest does not absolve; he is merely a witness and a conduit as the words of the Mystery make clear. If God is doing the absolving in the Latin Rite of the Mystery, why does the priest say “Absolvo te”? No other rite makes that presumption. Personally, I think it has to do with, among other things, a different concept of the meaning of priesthood as between the Latins on the one hand and the other particular churches within The Church on the other.


21 posted on 06/03/2008 1:08:18 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50
why does the priest say “Absolvo te”?

Because, just like an Orthodox priest, he made the decision to absolve, and just like Stavros' priest he could make the decision not to absolve if the penitent lacked proper disposition.

22 posted on 06/03/2008 1:15:10 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

“Because, just like an Orthodox priest, he made the decision to absolve, and just like Stavros’ priest he could make the decision not to absolve if the penitent lacked proper disposition.”

Alex, the Orthodox priests do not “absolve”; God does. There was a period of time when Russian priests, under Latin influence, did say words to the effect that they were “absolving” in place of Christ (which is a rather “unOrthodox “ notion in itself for an Orthodox parish priest) but that has stopped if I recall correctly.


23 posted on 06/03/2008 1:43:02 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis

So you are arguing over words. The Latin priest, just like the Orthodox priest makes a decision to do X or Y. If he does X, the penitent’s sin are forgiven by God. If he does Y, not.

I don’t even know how to translate “absolve” into Russian. “Otpustit” is literally “release”. Maybe that? “Otpuschenie grekhov” is a very common Russian phrase, but I would translate it as “forgiveness of sins”.


24 posted on 06/03/2008 1:59:12 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Alex Murphy
Which wasn't for very long...

Ha!!! God didn't show this guy much in the past, why would people think God showed him anything now???

He twists the scripture, distorts it...Like all good folks of his ilk, he starts with a conclusion then trys to make the scripture fit the conclusion...Another joke...

25 posted on 06/03/2008 3:16:54 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Alex Murphy

Alex,

Sometimes, when I read your posts, I can’t help but come away with the impression that you’re a bitter man.


26 posted on 06/03/2008 3:30:00 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Iscool

You wrote:

“Another joke...”

What? It’s such a joke that you can’t refute it?


27 posted on 06/03/2008 3:31:56 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; Iscool
Sometimes, when I read your posts, I can’t help but come away with the impression that you’re a bitter man.

I come across as bitter? How can that be, when I'm laughing so much?

28 posted on 06/03/2008 3:50:41 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: annalex

I am on a number of Catholic ping lists, but I do not think that I am on this particular ping list..actually this particular ping list, this ‘Catholic theology for non-Catholic series’ would be of great interest to me, as I am not a Catholic...so please, if I am not already on this list(which is what I believe to be the truth), please put me on this list...if I am already on this ping list, sorry to have bothered you...being as I am on so many ping lists on FR, sometimes I dont remember them all...thanks...


29 posted on 06/03/2008 3:57:19 PM PDT by andysandmikesmom
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To: andysandmikesmom

You are on, and even at the alphabetical head of it. You were not before. Thank you for your interest.


30 posted on 06/03/2008 4:01:22 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Alex Murphy; vladimir998; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; Iscool

I generally ignore irony, bitterness, or any other mood-posts, and in fact I would rather people did not make them on my threads. However, if you or anyone have a reasoned question or comment on the topic on hand, I will almost certainly answer it in all seriousness.


31 posted on 06/03/2008 4:04:20 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

Thanks very much for putting me on this ping list, and also many thanks for confirming that my recollections, that I was not previously on this list, were correct...as I age further into my senior years, I find I forget a little more than I used to, here and there....

Since I am not a Catholic, but am contemplating studying to become a Catholic, these types of threads are very informative for me...

Many, many thanks for everything...


32 posted on 06/03/2008 4:05:38 PM PDT by andysandmikesmom
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To: Alex Murphy

You wrote:

“I come across as bitter?”

Yes.

“How can that be, when I’m laughing so much?”

Think of Job 17:2 in the Bible in Basic English translation: “Truly, those who make sport of me are round about me, and my eyes become dark because of their bitter laughing.”

BITTER LAUGHING.

If the shoe fits...


33 posted on 06/03/2008 4:12:26 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: annalex

I don’t want this thread to become about Alex so that’s all I’ll say about it.


34 posted on 06/03/2008 4:13:11 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998; Alex Murphy

You said: Sometimes, when I read your posts, I can’t help but come away with the impression that you’re a bitter man.

And here I thought it was only me who had the observation.


35 posted on 06/03/2008 4:16:10 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ("Preach the Gospel always, and when necessary use words". ~ St. Francis of Assisi)
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To: vladimir998

Thanks. These are all diversions; they should be ignored.


36 posted on 06/03/2008 4:27:39 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Kolokotronis; annalex
Alex, the Orthodox priests do not “absolve”; God does. There was a period of time when Russian priests, under Latin influence, did say words to the effect that they were “absolving” in place of Christ (which is a rather “unOrthodox “ notion in itself for an Orthodox parish priest) but that has stopped if I recall correctly

Alex, Kolo is 100% correct. This is what the priest says before the prayer of absolution:

The priest then reads the Prayer of Absolution while placing the corner of his stole over the penitent's head. The prayer says:

Then placing the cross on the head of the penitent, the priest says:

The priest is merely stating that the penitent's sins have been forgiven by God.

I think there is a qualitative difference in "I absolve" and "Your sins are forgiven [by God]." But, as Kolo observed earlier, we see priests as an icon of Christ; the Latins see a priest as "alter Christus" (another Christ). Apples and oranges.

37 posted on 06/03/2008 8:49:28 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis

No question that the Orthodox wording is different in tone, but still, the decision to read or not read the absolution prayer is the priest’s, so the difference is not of essence: either way, the priest makes a human decision and relies on God to deliver on it.

Does the Orthodox penitent know that his sin has been absolved, or is he left woandering if God heard the absolution prayer and agreed with it?

In what way, do you think, Alter Christus is different than Icon of Christ?


38 posted on 06/03/2008 9:01:47 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: vladimir998
Think of Job 17:2 in the Bible in Basic English translation: “Truly, those who make sport of me are round about me, and my eyes become dark because of their bitter laughing.” BITTER LAUGHING. If the shoe fits...

Shoes don't fit. I have to ask in return whether that quotation means that your eyes have "become dark"?

39 posted on 06/03/2008 9:14:14 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: annalex; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe

***I would rather people did not make them on my threads***

On your threads?

How do we know who is posting? Are you Anna or Lex? Do both of you feel this way? Does one speak for the other?

This is an open thread so according to the rules, this is like a smoky back room. As long as there is no personal attacks, it’s all good.

In fact P-marlowe could institute a Neener takeover... ;-)


40 posted on 06/03/2008 9:42:37 PM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe

Of course the thread is open: I chose it to be so. I simply explained that I have no interest in empty banter, will not respond to it, and urge others not to respond.

Alex


41 posted on 06/03/2008 10:03:21 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; Gamecock
Of course the thread is open: I chose it to be so. I simply explained that I have no interest in empty banter, will not respond to it, and urge others not to respond.

What's another word for thesaurus?

Steven Wright

42 posted on 06/03/2008 11:15:32 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe; annalex
Cross country skiing is great if you live in a small country.
Steven Wright
43 posted on 06/04/2008 1:19:06 AM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: annalex; kosta50

“Does the Orthodox penitent know that his sin has been absolved, or is he left woandering if God heard the absolution prayer and agreed with it?”

I’ll find the non Russian rubrics and post them.

“In what way, do you think, Alter Christus is different than Icon of Christ?”

In the same way that an Icon of Christ is not “another” Christ. The whole Alter Christus concept seems a dangerous one to me and perhaps, though I hadn’t thought of this before, may explain in part the profoundly different attitudes towards the clergy and hierarchy we see between Orthodox and Latin Christians.


44 posted on 06/04/2008 5:58:14 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: annalex; Kolokotronis
If he does X, the penitent’s sin are forgiven by God. If he does Y, not.

But the priest couldn't possibly know the true state of my heart and God isn't speaking to him and telling him to forgive or not.

I know this is true because of all the times in 5th and 6th grade we herded into lines at the confessionals and went through the motions. "Bless me Father for I have sinned.....I was mean to my brother three (dozen) times....I lied to my parents twice..." etc, etc.

Sometimes my heart was in the right place, sometimes I was bored out of my mind and just was hereded along like a sheep.

Never, never, never would it have occured to me to excuse myself from confession because I wasn't spiritually ready and I never saw any of the hundreds of other kids excuse themselves either or come out of the confessional in tears and horror for not being forgiven. I shudder to think of the wrath of Sister E. Marie unleashed on such a child.

And believe me, we compared notes. We eventually worked out the formula for penance, which varied from priest to priest and seemd to be harsher for boys

45 posted on 06/04/2008 8:28:29 AM PDT by T Minus Four
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50
Icon of Christ is not “another” Christ

It would be good to dig into this some day.

If one asked me how Latin priests are different I'd say, celibacy. That naturally elevates the priest in the mind of the flock. I don't think "icon of Christ" is any different than "another Christ".

46 posted on 06/04/2008 10:33:42 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: T Minus Four; Campion; jo kus; dangus
But the priest couldn't possibly know the true state of my heart and God isn't speaking to him and telling him to forgive or not.

My intuitive understanding of it is that so long as the penitent does not deliberately lie about the sin, his contrition, or about his purpose of amendment, the sin is actually forgiven by God if and when the priest absolves, or not forgiven if he does not absolve. It is the same principle as with the Holy Eucharist: it becomes the Body, Blood and Divinity of Christ when the priest validly proclaims the Institution (Epiclesis in the East) regardless of the disposition of the priest or the communicant, but it confers grace on the communicant if he is properly disposed.

I am pinging a few among the many who know more than I on the subject, to correct me if I am wrong.

47 posted on 06/04/2008 10:50:04 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; Kolokotronis
If one asked me how Latin priests are different I'd say, celibacy. That naturally elevates the priest in the mind of the flock

Certainly. It has its counterpart in Orthodox monasticism (hieromonks), and episcopacy. But, the point is that the Christ Himself and the Church He left behind never required it. It's a Pauline innovation.

Celibacy is no guarantee of anyone's character, intentions or likeness to Christ. But in and of itself, it is no different than Pharisaical demonstrations of piety.

48 posted on 06/04/2008 1:09:39 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis

Celibacy is what we call a discipline, as opposed to a dogma. In principle it can change, and there are exceptions even now. I don’t think it shoul or will ever change though. The article does a good job explaining the basics of it.

It is a sacrifice that the celibate priest makes. If he did not make it, — for example, he is of an Eastern rite, or is a married convert ordained under the “pastoral provision”, — he is still a priest all the same. Like any sacrificial giving it is no guarantee of anything, just like you say. But in our age especially it is a blessing to have a celibate priest minister to adolescents and, to that matter, adults, as it is a visible direct and complete example of sexual continence, that a married parent can be only in part.


49 posted on 06/04/2008 1:31:32 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; Kolokotronis
But in our age especially it is a blessing to have a celibate priest minister to adolescents and, to that matter, adults, as it is a visible direct and complete example of sexual continence, that a married parent can be only in part

If everyone were to become celibate what would that do to Christanity. It would literally die out. I think a married priests who serves as a role model to the young that they should wait until they are married is much more realistic. And to those who are married, that being faithful only to one wife is kepeing marriage as a sacrament. And to the parents, that placing God ahead of everything, including family, is the disicipline to follow.

You speak of self-sacrifice in celbiacy as if waiting, keeping and putting God first isn't. Like everything else we don't go around announcing that we are fasting so that others may see how devout we are. This is something between us and God. It should not be the subject of public admiration.

50 posted on 06/04/2008 1:47:43 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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