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Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspective [Ecumenical]
CH Network ^ | Victor R. Claveau

Posted on 06/19/2008 10:31:20 AM PDT by NYer

Many times converts to Catholicism will say they never really understood the Bible until they began to read it with Catholic eyes. Passages they read many times began to take on new meaning. Doctrines, which seemed to be invisible, become readily apparent. Such is the doctrine of Purgatory. Many Protestants reject the theology of Purgatory because they do not find it in the New Testament. Like the doctrine of the Trinity, the doctrine of Purgatory is there, but the pieces of the puzzle have to be put together in order to clearly see the complete picture.

The theology of Purgatory begins, as all genuinely Christian theology must, from Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. I intend to focus primarily on the New Testament. That said, it must be understood that doctrine is not always clearly defined in Scripture. Some begin with a premise and then search the Scriptures to find supporting evidence to substantiate their beliefs; others study seeking understanding of God’s will and design for mankind. Even the Ethiopian Eunuch recognized the need for proper interpretation of Scripture (Act 8:27-31).

That the Scriptures do not interpret themselves is evidenced by the myriad of Christian denominations in existence today. Each denomination has the same basic New Testament as their foundation, yet there is little or no agreement concerning substantive doctrinal issues. Each person professes to rely on the Holy Spirit as guide and arbiter. It seems as if the Holy Spirit has a multiple personality disorder and instructs each person with a different truth. Argument can become vicious if the beliefs and presuppositions do violence to the given reality or if we expect a specific meaning to be clearly defined in the pages of a text, neat and self-explanatory. And as we are to deal with Purgatory, the search is made more difficult by centuries of bitter controversy often along denominational lines. It soon becomes evident that Purgatory is a test case for revealing and linking other beliefs, practices, and ideologies. It could be said, with only slight exaggeration, that to ask a Christian what he understands by Purgatory is the quickest way to discover what he believes concerning life after death, the relationship of Scripture to Tradition, the nature of the Church, sin and its forgiveness, prayer, etc.

I will endeavor to present the Catholic doctrine of purgatory in its most important aspects using the New Testament that all Christians hold as sacred Scripture. To this biblical foundation I will incorporate the historical origins and foundations of Purgatory from Jewish belief.

Definition

Purgatory is "a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God's friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven (CCC p. 896).

New Testament

Let’s begin our study of the New Testament with 2 Cor. 12:2-4. St. Paul writes of a vision of the "third heaven” and “Paradise”: “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter” (RSV)

Let’s take a good look at this passage. First Paul speaks of the third heaven. He does not say that there are only three levels of heaven, or three heavens as Mormonism teaches, only that he (most scholars believe that Paul was referring to his own experience in this passage) had a vision of the third heaven. There are numerous Scripture passages in the Book of Genesis, which refer to heaven in the plural. Secondly, he states that he was also given a vision of paradise. Paradise is obviously separate from heaven.

Seventh Heaven

When I was a boy, “He’s/She’s in seventh heaven” was a common expression. It was not until I began a study of Jewish belief and doctrine that I understood the origin of the expression. You see, Jews in Jesus’ time believed in seven levels of heaven. The throne of God was situated in the seventh, or highest level of Heaven, hence, the expression: "He's in seventh heaven" indicating someone who was joyously happy. The significance of 7 in the Bible is fairly obvious; it means totality, fullness, completeness.

The Book of Revelation states that nothing profane can be in the divine Presence. Where God is, there can only be pure and perfect love (Rev. 21:27).

Jewish legend tells us that on the first day of creation God produced ten things: the heavens and the earth, Tohu and Bohu (formlessness and emptiness), light and darkness, wind and water, the duration of the day and the duration of the night.

“Several heavens were created, seven in fact, each to serve a distinct purpose. The first, the one visible to us, has no function except that of covering up the light during the nighttime; therefore it disappears every morning. The planets are fastened to the second of the heavens; in the third the manna is made for the pious in the hereafter; the fourth contains the celestial Jerusalem together with the Temple, in which Michael ministers as high priest, and offers the souls of the pious as sacrifices. In the fifth heaven, the angel hosts reside, and sing the praise of God, though only during the night, for by day it is the task of Israel on earth to give glory to God on high. The sixth heaven is an uncanny spot; there originate most of the trials and visitations ordained for the earth and its inhabitants. Snow lies heaped up there and hail; there are lofts full of noxious dew, magazines stocked with storms, and cellars holding reserves of smoke. Doors of fire separate these celestial chambers, which are under the supervision of the archangel Metatron. Their pernicious contents defiled the heavens until David’s time. The pious king prayed to God to purge His exalted dwelling of whatever was pregnant with evil; it was not becoming that such things should exist near the Merciful One. Only then were they removed to the earth.
“The seventh heaven, on the other hand, contains only what is good and beautiful; right, justice, and mercy, the storehouses of life, peace, and blessing, the souls of the pious, the souls and spirits of unborn generations, the dew with which God will revive the dead on the resurrection day, and, above all, the Divine Throne, surrounded by the seraphim and ofanim, the holy Hayyot (the highest angelic beings), and the ministering angels.” (The Legends of the Jews, Louis Ginzberg, Vol. 1, p. 8-9, 1937, Jewish Publication Society)

Gehenna

Jewish belief was there were also seven levels of the abode of the dead. The exact opposite of the seventh level of heaven is the seventh level of the abode of the dead, which was/is called Gehenna. As the seventh level of heaven is perfect love, then Gehenna would be the total absence of love, or perfect hate. One priest described it by saying that “if it were possible, a person in Gehenna would tear his own flesh from his body, because he has only perfect hatred, even for himself.”

In the New Testament the matter is quite clear. In the first place, the word hell usually means the abode or state of the dead. And, in the second place, there is nothing more clearly and certainly taught in the New Testament than the reality of Gehenna. It is not just a figure of speech, and its torments are unimaginably severe and everlasting. The intensity of the suffering in Gehenna will depend upon the number and greatness of sins committed, and there will never be any lessening of that suffering. The greatest grief results from being separated from God, for the damned realize that they had been created only for God and because of their own foolishness and pride they have lost Him (Matt. 7:23; 25:10, 41). There is an additional punishment which God created, which we can call hell-fire (Matt. 13:42; 18:9). This fire is some agent outside the souls of the damned and causes them real pain and suffering. God manifested his justice by creating an eternal Gehenna, for the evil of a mortal sin is unlimited, and so the punishment for it must be without end.

When Jesus spoke of everlasting punishment, he did not use the words hades, or Sheol, he used the term Gehenna. To the south of ancient Jerusalem is a precipitous ravine, which stretches down and joins the Valley of Kidron. It was called by the Hebrews, Gei Ben-Hinnom — Ravine (or Valley) of the Son of Hinnom. It was in this valley, at a place called Tophet (probably “place of abomination”) that Manasseh and the wicked inhabitants of Jerusalem went to worship idols and to sacrifice their sons and daughters (2 Kgs. 23:10; 2 Ch. 28:3; 33:56; Jer. 7:31; 19:2ff; 32:35). In fact, the Valley of Hinnom was set aside in Molech’s honor.

The Torah forbade this practice: “You should not give any of your children to devote them by fire to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord.” (Lev. 18:21)

The prophet Jeremiah cursed the place and predicted that it would become a place of death and corruption. In Jesus’ time this valley, because of its ancient history, was known as a place defiled and was used as the city’s garbage dump; a place of rotting flesh, maggots, stench and fire. Gehenna in the New Testament is mentioned seven times in Mt, three times in Mk, once in Lk., once in Js 3:6. It is a place of fire (Mt 5:22; 18:9; Js 3:6). The fire is unquenchable (Mk 9:43). It is a pit into which people are cast (Mt 5:29f; 18:9; Mk 9:45, 47; Lk. 12:5). It is a place where the wicked are destroyed (Mt 10:28). Depending upon the translation you may find the word “Gehenna” or the phrase “the hell of fire”. “The hell of fire” implying that there are other hells or other levels of the abode of the dead.

Popular belief was that the souls of evildoers and sinners were condemned to live in the everlasting darkness and terror of Gehenna, a place lit only by the infernal fires that raged there. Gehenna reeked with the stench of burning sulphur or brimstone. Suffocating, acrid smoke arose from the "Fiery Pit" or "Pool of Fire" in which the wicked, expiating their sins in life, agonized. It was too late for those who wished to escape their fiery torments - too late for remorse when remorse could no longer avail them! Their punishment was clearly written down in the Talmud (Jewish Civil and Canon Law): "The Holy One, blessed be He, judges the wicked in Gehenna for twelve months. At first he afflicts them with itching. After that [He roasts them] with fire. At this they cry out, Oh! Oh! And then he torments them with snow. Thereupon they cry out "Woe is me! Woe is me!" Jewish belief was that a soul consigned to Gehenna would be annihilated after twelve months. The correction of this erroneous belief, by Jesus, is found in Matt 25:31-46 where he stated that the punishment for the wicked in Gehenna would be "eternal."

Shammai and Hillel

In Talmudic times there were two differing opinions as to which category of souls would be flung into the Fiery Pit. The School of Shammai (first century B.C.) held that three classes of souls were judged after death: Those who had been perfectly righteous, those who had been completely wicked, and those who were merely "so-so" – namely a "little" righteous and a "little wicked". The names of the righteous were instantly entered into the Book of Judgement; they were considered worthy of eternal life without any prior examination. The souls of the wicked were cast down into the dark caverns of Gehenna to be tormented and finally consumed in the Fiery Pit. As for the "mediocre" sinners, namely run-of-the-mill men and women–they were obliged to go down into the netherworld for a period of fiery purgation, before being deemed sufficiently worthy of ascending and entering heaven. The disciples of Shammai based these constructions on this prophecy: "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2).

But the School of Hillel, which was contemporary with that of Shammai was always at loggerheads with it, had a more humane conception of the fate of evildoers in Gehenna. Because the Hillites considered God to be compassionate and just, they were sure that after the process of purification by suffering and remorse had been completed for the whole human race, "Gehenna will cease!" They consoled the backsliding, the confused, and the straying with the assurance that, in the fires of retributive justice, all their impurities would be consumed. In this way there would be fulfilled the promise that the Prophet Zechariah had given Israel: that God "will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as Gold is tried" (Zech 13:9).

This moral principle, with its implication that the human race is perfectible – a belief fought for so valiantly by Hillel and his devoted adherents – assumed, finally, a central position in the ethics of Talmudic Judaism. "Every man a share in the World-to-Come," became one of the most beloved of the moral dicta of the Sages of the Mishnah.

Regardless of the validity of either of these propositions, the point is that both schools believed and taught that a state of purgation would be necessary before a soul could enter heaven. As a matter of fact, if you look up the word hell in most Jewish dictionaries or encyclopedias you will see hell defined as purgatory.

A Place of Hate and Pain

Since the seventh level of heaven was a place of perfect love and happiness in the presence of God, it stands to reason that the seventh level of Hell would be in direct opposition in degree, i.e., a place of hate and pain. For the sake of this discussion I will call the seventh level of hell Gehenna, in order to differentiate it from the first six levels of the abode of the dead.

The New Testament is so clear on the subject of death and its aftermath that the Gospels are almost thematic on the need for serving God faithfully in this life, because after death there is no chance of repentance. When I was in grade school, the sisters taught us to pray, holding our hands, palm to palm, fingers extended, with the right thumb crossed over the left. They explained that the thumbs crossed in this manner indicated mercy over justice and as long as we prayed we could receive God’s mercy – which is a very fine spiritual interpretation of a simple gesture. As long as we are alive, we can invoke God’s mercy over his justice.

Paradise

When Jesus was being crucified he turned to the good thief, and said: “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Lk. 23:43). This makes Paradise the place where both Jesus and the repentant thief went after their deaths; this is the paradise of the righteous, also called the "Bosom of Abraham" (Lk 16:22) or in Catholic parlance “The Limbo of the Fathers”. Paradise was the abode of the souls of the just and identified with part of hades or hell. Here the souls of the just awaited the Messiah to lead them to heaven. “The Bosom of Abraham was the first level of hell” (Encyclopedia Judaica, Vol. 2, p. 165).

Keep in mind that the gates of heaven were not opened until Jesus ascended to the Father. When Jesus ascended to heaven Scripture tells us that “led a host of captives” (Eph. 4:8).

Now, who were these captives and where were they being held captive? They were the righteous souls of the just men and women who were awaiting heaven’s gate to open. Keep in mind that heaven had been closed as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve.

Lazarus and the Rich Man

Christ's parable about Lazarus and the rich man is unmistakable. When the rich man (tradition has him as Dives) begged Abraham for some relief from his sufferings, he was told, "My son, remember that during your life good things came your way, just as bad things came the way of Lazarus. Now he is being comforted here while you are in agony. But that is not all: between us and you a great gulf has been fixed, to stop anyone, if he wanted to, crossing from our side to yours, and to stop any crossing from your side to ours" (Lk. 16:22-31). Further, Dives asks Abraham to send Lazarus back to his brothers and warn them, in order to save them from the torment that he was experiencing. Where was Dives who had compassion and love for his five brothers? It is generally understood that there is no love in Gehenna, only complete and perfect hatred. He obviously, was not in either Heaven or Paradise. Since the rich man had love and compassion for his brothers, it would indicate that he was not in Gehenna. And please note that he was able to converse with Abraham; this would indicate that he was in the second level of the abode of the dead, or Purgatory.

To sum up: The first level of hell was the paradise or “Bosom of Abraham”; the abode of the souls awaiting the opening of heaven’s gate. When Jesus ascended to the Father, he took the captives with him, emptying Paradise.

Level seven, Gehenna, was a place of defilement and hatred, the direct opposite of level seven in heaven, filled with the souls who had rejected God. Levels 2 through 6 were the state of purgation. Assignment there would depend upon the severity of the sin. The Book of Revelation (21:27) tells us: “But nothing unclean shall enter it (heaven), nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life”. As a soul’s sins were expiated it would graduate from one level to another until it reached perfection (perfect love of God) and be worthy of heaven.

Catholics did not “invent” the doctrine of purgatory, or even coin the phrase “State of Purgation.” The doctrine is a legitimate outgrowth of Jewish belief. We must take the Bible as an organic whole, not simply selecting certain verses on which to build theologies. Jesus corrected the Jews concerning divorce in Matt 19:3-6. He also taught that the fires of Gehenna would be everlasting in contrast to the Jewish belief that would be a time limitation of 12 months. Jesus did not come to change the law, but He did clarify certain aspects. It stands to reason that if the Jews were wrong about their belief in a state of purgation. Jesus would have had a moral responsibility to correct them; this he did not do.

When NT passages, such as 1 Cor 3:13-15; Rev. 5:3, 13; 21:27; Matt 5:25-26, 12:32; 1 Pet 3:18-20; 1 Jn. 5:16; and Lk 12:58f are examined in the light of Jewish belief their meaning becomes clear. Souls must be purified before they can enter heaven's gate; God’s justice demands it.

Finally, the doctrine of Purgatory is reasonable. Our God is not a God of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33). Everything God revealed as truth must make sense. The greatest part of humanity; all who believe in revelation, except those who follow the Protestant Reformers, and those who are guided by reason alone, agreed in the belief in a place of temporal punishment, and in the practice of praying for the dead. If a soul dies before attaining a state of perfection, then Divine Justice, will after death, be compelled to exact the last penny of what could have been paid in this world. If one continues to assert that he cannot find either purgatory or the practice of praying for the dead in New Testament Scripture, the Catholic Church answers that we find both doctrine and practice clearly expounded there.

Who shall decide, and decide so as to put the question to rest forever? None but the Church, which Jesus established almost two thousand years ago, placing Peter as its head. When infusing into His ministries the Spirit of Truth, Jesus promised that the Spirit would never depart from them until time ceased. I believe the Catholic Church’s teaching on the existence of Purgatory is Scriptural, Historical and reasonable.

Prayer for the dead goes so far back into pre-Christian/Jewish antiquity that there is no way to trace its origins. If a soul is in heaven, it has no need of prayer. If a soul is in Gehenna, prayer will do no good. Prayer for the dead indicates a belief in an intermediate state between heaven and hell where prayer would do some good. We Catholics call this state Purgatory. The Catholic doctrine of Purgatory is a legitimate outgrowth of Jewish belief and divine revelation. Please keep in mind that the Catholic Church does not specifically teach that there are seven levels of heaven or seven levels of the abode of the dead, only that Heaven, Gehenna, and Purgatory exist.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: purgatory

1 posted on 06/19/2008 10:31:20 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...
This is by far one of the best explanations I have read.

Also, for those who thrive on challenge, here is a quick reference chart (pdf format) that will help you read through the bible in one year!

READ BIBLE IN ONE YEAR

2 posted on 06/19/2008 10:33:27 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: NYer

bump


3 posted on 06/19/2008 10:50:53 AM PDT by dangerdoc (dangerdoc (not actually dangerous any more))
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To: NYer

The Pdf won’t open for me.
Would you be willing to send it to me if I pm my email?


4 posted on 06/19/2008 10:53:03 AM PDT by netmilsmom (I am Iron Mom. (but really made from Gold plated titanium))
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To: andysandmikesmom; Antoninus; ArrogantBustard; celticfreedom; CTK YKC; dan1123; DaveMSmith; ...
Thank you, NYer; I wanted to post on this subject myself, and instead found this thread today.

If you want to be on the Catholic Theology for non-Catholics list but are not on it already, or if you are on it but do not want to be, let me know either publicly or privately.

Previously posted (all threads are open, unless marked otherwise):

On Salvation Outside the Catholic Church
The Great Heresies
SALVATION PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING
Hermits and Solitaries [Ecumenical]
THE PRIESTHOOD DEBATE
RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT
A Well-Rounded Pope [Ecumenical]
A Monastery to Last 1,000 Years [Ecumenical]

5 posted on 06/19/2008 10:53:23 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: NYer

bump for later


6 posted on 06/19/2008 10:57:22 AM PDT by mnehring
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer

Why so much “Jewish legend” to describe what’s alleged to be in the New Testament?

Jewish legend tells us that on the first day of creation God produced ten things: the heavens and the earth, Tohu and Bohu (formlessness and emptiness), light and darkness, wind and water, the duration of the day and the duration of the night.

“Several heavens were created, seven in fact, each to serve a distinct purpose. The first, the one visible to us, has no function except that of covering up the light during the nighttime; therefore it disappears every morning. The planets are fastened to the second of the heavens; in the third the manna is made for the pious in the hereafter; the fourth contains the celestial Jerusalem together with the Temple, in which Michael ministers as high priest, and offers the souls of the pious as sacrifices. In the fifth heaven, the angel hosts reside, and sing the praise of God, though only during the night, for by day it is the task of Israel on earth to give glory to God on high. The sixth heaven is an uncanny spot; there originate most of the trials and visitations ordained for the earth and its inhabitants. Snow lies heaped up there and hail; there are lofts full of noxious dew, magazines stocked with storms, and cellars holding reserves of smoke. Doors of fire separate these celestial chambers, which are under the supervision of the archangel Metatron. Their pernicious contents defiled the heavens until David’s time. The pious king prayed to God to purge His exalted dwelling of whatever was pregnant with evil; it was not becoming that such things should exist near the Merciful One. Only then were they removed to the earth.
“The seventh heaven, on the other hand, contains only what is good and beautiful; right, justice, and mercy, the storehouses of life, peace, and blessing, the souls of the pious, the souls and spirits of unborn generations, the dew with which God will revive the dead on the resurrection day, and, above all, the Divine Throne, surrounded by the seraphim and ofanim, the holy Hayyot (the highest angelic beings), and the ministering angels.” (The Legends of the Jews, Louis Ginzberg, Vol. 1, p. 8-9, 1937, Jewish Publication Society)

Gehenna

Jewish belief was there were also seven levels of the abode of the dead. The exact opposite of the seventh level of heaven is the seventh level of the abode of the dead, which was/is called Gehenna. As the seventh level of heaven is perfect love, then Gehenna would be the total absence of love, or perfect hate. One priest described it by saying that “if it were possible, a person in Gehenna would tear his own flesh from his body, because he has only perfect hatred, even for himself.”


8 posted on 06/19/2008 11:24:05 AM PDT by bigcat32
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To: NYer
That the Scriptures do not interpret themselves is evidenced by the myriad of Christian denominations in existence today. Each denomination has the same basic New Testament as their foundation, yet there is little or no agreement concerning substantive doctrinal issues. Each person professes to rely on the Holy Spirit as guide and arbiter. It seems as if the Holy Spirit has a multiple personality disorder and instructs each person with a different truth.

Rancor offered up as an ecumenical thread? No thank you.

9 posted on 06/19/2008 11:39:43 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: Alex Murphy

I am by no means a biblical scholar but what did Jesus mean when he told the thief on the cross, “this day thy shall be with me in paridise”? How could the thief be with Jesus if he was supposed to be suffering for his sins in purgatory?


10 posted on 06/19/2008 12:09:45 PM PDT by Bitsy
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To: Bitsy
I am by no means a biblical scholar but what did Jesus mean when he told the thief on the cross, “this day thy shall be with me in paridise”?

That the thief would enter Heaven that day.

How could the thief be with Jesus if he was supposed to be suffering for his sins in purgatory?

The Church has never taught that all go to Purgatory, nor has it taught the duration that one must be in Purgatory.

Perhaps you should look at this passage:
31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

What is "the world to come" where forgiveness possible? It IS NOT Heaven, because all has already been forgiven there. Nor is it Hell, because there IS NO forgiveness available there. That means that THERE MUST be a "world to come" where those who have not been forgiven might still receive forgiveness.

11 posted on 06/19/2008 12:52:43 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Bitsy
if he was supposed to be suffering for his sins in purgatory?

Who says he was supposed to go to purgatory? He did his share of suffering in life.

12 posted on 06/19/2008 12:54:22 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: NYer
Here is a concise theological explanation of prayers for the dead. The liturgical practices are described in the rest of the article at source.

Praying for the Dead


St. Teresa of Avila Interceding for the Souls in Purgatory, from the workshop of Peter Paul Reubens, 1577–1640


II Maccabees 12:43-46: "And making a gathering, he [Judas] sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."

 
 
Those who've died in a state of grace are not truly "dead"; they are our beloved in Heaven or in Purgatory (on their way to Heaven) and will forever be, world without end, part of the Communion of Saints -- the Church Triumphant (the Saints in Heaven, whether or not they are beatified or canonized), the Church Suffering (the saints in Purgatory), and the Church Militant (the saints on earth).

Because we can't know, aside from those the Church has beatified or canonized, who is already in Heaven, who is in Purgatory for a time, or who is damned, we pray for the dead for the rest of our lives -- assuming they are in Purgatory, while hoping they are in Heaven and not damned.

We also ask those who've died to pray for us. While those whom the Church has deemed to be of the Church Triumphant (the canonized Saints) are in Heaven for certain and are, therefore, in no need of our prayers for them, we've always asked for them to pray for us. As to the Church Suffering in Purgatory, Aquinas teaches that they are not able to know, by themselves, our prayers; however, it is piously believed, and taught by St. Alphonsus Liguori, that God makes our prayers known to them -- not directly, as they are deprived of the Beatific Vision until they enter Heaven, but by infusing this knowledge into their souls. St. Bellarmine teaches that because the Church Suffering is so close to God -- much closer than we are and having the great consolation of knowing they are saved -- their prayers for us are very effective. So, as you pray for your dead loved ones, ask them to pray for you, too!

As to the damned, there is no hope; no prayer can help them and we can't pray formally for those in Hell. The problem, of course, is that we can't know who is damned, and so we pray generally for "all the faithful departed." For those who've died outside of visible Communion with Christ's Church or for those Catholics who've died seemingly without repentance and in scandal, public prayer cannot be offered, but we can most certainly still pray privately with the hope that they've died in a state of grace (i.e., those who are denied a Catholic funeral can't be prayed for liturgically, publicly, but they can most definitely be prayed for -- and should be prayed for -- privately). Priests can even offer Masses for such people privately, without naming them.

Fish Eaters

13 posted on 06/19/2008 1:27:05 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
The link to Catholic funeral should be Catholic funeral.

The painting is "St. Teresa of Avila Interceding for the Souls in Purgatory", Peter Paul Reubens workshop (1577-1640).

14 posted on 06/19/2008 1:30:43 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
for the third time...

Catholic funeral

15 posted on 06/19/2008 1:31:48 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: wagglebee

That means that THERE MUST be a “world to come” where those who have not been forgiven might still receive forgiveness.

Didn’t Jesus say there would be a new heaven and a new earth?


16 posted on 06/19/2008 1:41:02 PM PDT by Bitsy
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To: Bitsy
Didn’t Jesus say there would be a new heaven and a new earth?

Actually, Saint John saw this and he was talking about AFTER the Lord's return.

This does not preclude Purgatory, in fact it legitimizes it.

17 posted on 06/19/2008 1:46:49 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: netmilsmom

Were you able to get it?


18 posted on 06/19/2008 1:51:04 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture™)
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To: netmilsmom
Would you be willing to send it to me if I pm my email?

There is a link at the site posted above.

19 posted on 06/19/2008 3:47:25 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: annalex

Excellent post! Thank you!


20 posted on 06/19/2008 3:50:05 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: Alex Murphy
Rancor offered up as an ecumenical thread?

Rancor? How did you reach that conclusion?

That the Scriptures do not interpret themselves is evidenced by the myriad of Christian denominations in existence today.

Look around you! There is a new christian denomination formed every day. Christ called us to unity not dissention.

21 posted on 06/19/2008 3:57:09 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: annalex
For more learning:

Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspective [Ecumenical]

PURIFYING THE SOUL ON EARTH IS WORTH 100X WHAT IT TAKES AFTER [Catholic Caucus]

What Happens After Death?

Purgatory

A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 12: Purgatory

The Doctrine of Purgatory

The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

Required for entrance to Purgatory? Personal question for Cathloic Freepers.

(Protestant) Minister Who Had Near-Death Episode Believes In Purgatory

Straight Answers: What Is Purgatory Like?

Do Catholics Believe in Purgatory?

Purgatory, Indulgences, and the Work of Jesus Christ (Discussion)

Prayer to Release the Souls of Purgatory

The Forgotten Souls in Purgatory

Praying for the dead [Purgatory]

22 posted on 06/19/2008 4:48:04 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Bitsy

The Apostle’s Creed says He [Jesus] descended into hell. meaning of course, not Gehenna but the place where the souls of the just were waiting for deliverance by Christ. In my imagination I see Christ greeting Adam and Moses et al. with a most unlikely person at his right hand.


23 posted on 06/19/2008 9:46:23 PM PDT by RobbyS (Ecce homo)
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To: wagglebee

shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

What is the sin against the Holy Ghost?


24 posted on 06/20/2008 9:16:04 AM PDT by Bitsy
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To: Bitsy

Blasphemy.


25 posted on 06/20/2008 9:18:41 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Bitsy

Exactly.


26 posted on 06/20/2008 2:34:36 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: NYer

A comment and a question?

If people who are not totally righteous (and who among us is totally righteous?) go to purgatory, then why did the Lord tell the thief on the cross that he would be with HIM today in paradise? I don’t think that Jesus meant he was going to be hanging out with the guy in Purgatory.

Also, I noted that several of the statements in this piece are attributed to Jewish “legend.” I would not want to base any belief on a legend.


27 posted on 06/22/2008 2:39:14 PM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: Paved Paradise
If people who are not totally righteous (and who among us is totally righteous?) go to purgatory, then why did the Lord tell the thief on the cross that he would be with HIM today in paradise? I don’t think that Jesus meant he was going to be hanging out with the guy in Purgatory.

First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Also, I noted that several of the statements in this piece are attributed to Jewish “legend.” I would not want to base any belief on a legend.

Legend = oral tradition. This is how the faith was passed down for generations until the printing press made it possible to finally transcribe and reproduce texts. Remember not everything Jesus said and did was written down. The same is true for the Old Testament. The Written Law is another name for the Torah. The Oral Law is a legal commentary on the Torah, explaining how its commandments are to be carried out. Common sense suggests that some sort of oral tradition was always needed to accompany the Written Law, because the Torah alone, even with its 613 commandments, is an insufficient guide to Jewish life.

Without an oral tradition, some of the Torah's laws would be incomprehensible. In the Shema's first paragraph, the Bible instructs: "And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart. And you shall teach them diligently to your children, and you shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk on the road, when you lie down and when you rise up. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for frontlets between your eyes" (see Deuteronomy 6:4-8). ref.

28 posted on 06/22/2008 4:20:48 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: NYer

Excellent post, NYer. Thanks.


29 posted on 06/22/2008 4:48:45 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: NYer

Thank you for your comments.

If this author meant oral tradition, I wonder why did he simply not use that term. Oral tradition and legend are NOT the same. My dictionary defines the word legend as “a story that has been passed down for years and is unlikely to be true.” So much for that. There are a multitude of legends in all cultures - Atlantis, Narcissus, Pandora’s Box, and on and on - I’m confident that you do not believe these are on the level of the “legend” you are promulgating; yet I am pretty certain that for many years people believed them as real, just as they believed in all the stories of Medusa, Zeus, Hera, and so on.

Regarding the “I say to you today” as if Jesus had to clarify to the thief that what he was saying was actually being said today and not yesterday, this is EXACTLY what the Jehovah’s witnesses use for their evidence.

After all the stuff I have read on here about Purgatory from the Catholic contingent, and all the stuff I have read from the non-Catholic contingent, I came up with the concept that there is a Purgatory, where people must be purged of their hay, stubble and straw, but only Catholics have to suffer it. Did you ever even think that because you don’t believe Jesus died for ALL of your sins, that maybe you do need the extra cleansing and those of us who believe His precious blood covered all don’t?

Back to being serious, however, I do plan to check into this some more, as I am interested in what the early church fathers had to say. Another Freeper has given me some info and I am going to be reading that.

And what about Limbo? I haven’t heard a peep about that but my dear father, poor soul, believed it.


30 posted on 06/23/2008 5:40:04 PM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: Paved Paradise
Did you ever even think that because you don’t believe Jesus died for ALL of your sins, that maybe you do need the extra cleansing and those of us who believe His precious blood covered all don’t?

Great point! I'll add - if one doesn't believe Jesus died for all their sins, how could they possibly believe He's their Savior? Seems they need to 'add' something because the Blood of Jesus just wasn't enough or clean enough to their liking. Pride? Their own god?
31 posted on 09/05/2009 11:02:26 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: NYer; Goreknowshowtocheat; Absolutely Nobama; Elendur; it_ürür; Bockscar; Mary Kochan; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


32 posted on 10/30/2011 8:16:52 AM PDT by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: Paved Paradise

Paved Paradise,
perhaps these may also help:

Regarding St. Dismas, the Good Thief, and redemptive suffering
http://www.fisheaters.com/offeringitup.html
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=114

And a bit on Purgatory, courtesy of fisheaters:
http://www.fisheaters.com/purgatory.html

I sincerely hope that this aids you. God bless.


33 posted on 10/30/2011 9:42:39 AM PDT by sayuncledave (et Verbum caro factum est (And the Word was made flesh))
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To: sayuncledave

I am not a Catholic. However, the older I get, the more “Catholic” I seem to be getting. I have some issues with some of the beliefs, but there is so much schism in all of the offshoot Protestant churches that I can’t help but wonder. Thanks.


34 posted on 10/30/2011 1:58:37 PM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: presently no screen name

I think you accidentally posted a comment to me that you meant for another on here.


35 posted on 10/30/2011 2:00:02 PM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: presently no screen name

Sorry. I think you sent it correctly. I’m having a senior moment. LOL.


36 posted on 10/30/2011 2:02:10 PM PDT by Paved Paradise
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