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C of E bishop will defect to Rome
The Telegraph ^ | June 26, 2008 | Damian Thompson

Posted on 06/27/2008 6:20:28 AM PDT by NYer

At least one Church of England bishop will defect to Rome soon after the Lambeth Conference, I gather from Anglo-Catholic sources. And there could be more to follow.

I can't tell you much more than that at the moment, because the negotiations with Rome are so sensitive - and the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales, who distrust Anglican traditionalists, are quite capable of throwing a spanner in the works.

It's shaming to have to admit that the bishops of my own Church are the chief obstacle to a significant move of Anglo-Catholic clergy and lay people into full communion with the Holy See - but that's the way it was last time, in the early 1990s, and it's still the case today.

Fortunately, Pope Benedict XVI is more open to experiment than Pope John Paul II. He is taking a close interest in the progress of the rebel Traditional Anglican Communion towards reunion - a process which is under the control of the Congregration for the Doctrine of the Faith, not the Vatican's woolly-minded ecumenists.

I can't betray confidences, but my advice is: look at the new church structures, such as Old Rite parishes, that the Pope is already encouraging, and ask yourself how those models might be adapted for the use of former Anglicans.

But I've already said too much...

(Excerpt) Read more at blogs.telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: anglican; churchofengland; lambeth; schism; tac
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1 posted on 06/27/2008 6:20:28 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 06/27/2008 6:21:05 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: NYer

Wow.


3 posted on 06/27/2008 6:23:19 AM PDT by fatima
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So, when someone who is already apostate apostatizes... is he a double-apostate? Or just still a plain, vanilla apostate?
4 posted on 06/27/2008 6:24:12 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: NYer

Bump for later.

Telling words............**And there could be more to follow.**


5 posted on 06/27/2008 6:25:21 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: BibChr
Or just still a plain, vanilla apostate?

Still vanilla, but now with sprinkles on top.

6 posted on 06/27/2008 6:27:17 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: NYer; Huber; sionnsar

The Anglican Communion has brought this upon themselves and many fine people are seeing their Church destroyed because some bishops have decided to openly embrace sin.

I pray that the Anglican faithful can find a home within the Catholic Church or somehow “reorganize” with some of the fantastic Anglican bishops and priests in Africa.


7 posted on 06/27/2008 6:30:03 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: NYer

And the potential benefit of this gossip to the alleged clergy in question, the Catholic Church, the Church of England, and the general public is ... ? Anyone?

I hope you feel good about yourself today, Damian. You’re so *connected*, it just gives me the shivers.


8 posted on 06/27/2008 6:31:24 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Tax-chick's House of Herpets. We're basking - how about you?)
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To: NYer

Once again, the Anglo-Catholics are not “Traditionalists”. They only came about in the late 1800’s as a product of the Oxford movement and were and are a bunch of RC Wannabes.
The real “Traditionalists” are the Conservative “Evangelical” Anglicans, those who adhere to the Theology of the English Reformers such as Thomas Cranmer and the 39 Articles of Religion. The Founding Document of the Anglican Church which is totally Protestant in naure.


9 posted on 06/27/2008 6:32:37 AM PDT by BnBlFlag (Deo Vindice/Semper Fidelis "Ya gotta saddle up your boys; Ya gotta draw a hard line")
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To: NYer
I can't tell you much more than that at the moment, because the negotiations with Rome are so sensitive - and the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales, who distrust Anglican traditionalists, are quite capable of throwing a spanner in the works.

Ironic, no?

Homecoming Protestants helping to return Catholicism to its traditional roots in the face of opposition from modernist Catholic clergy who've lost the plot.

10 posted on 06/27/2008 6:34:47 AM PDT by marshmallow (An infallible Bible is useless without an infallible interpreter)
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To: NYer
I liked this comment under the article:
"Breff, your comment reminds me of a story about a Tory MP, who crossed the floor of the House of Commons, "and in doing so increased the average IQ on both sides".
Noote June 27, 2008 11:30 AM GMT

11 posted on 06/27/2008 6:38:39 AM PDT by Savage Beast (Vote Republican = Vote NO to the Radical Left!)
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To: Tax-chick

‘The potential benefit,’ I would think, is encouragement to those who love the Lord.


12 posted on 06/27/2008 6:39:07 AM PDT by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
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To: wagglebee

“The Anglican Communion has brought this upon themselves”

True enough. But then again, schisms are always that way.

“many fine people are seeing their Church destroyed because some bishops have decided to openly embrace sin.”

Indeed. They’ve decided to do something before homosexuality becomes mandatory.

“or somehow “reorganize” with some of the fantastic Anglican bishops and priests in Africa.”

Yes, the savages need to be told what to do before they destroy themselves. The civilized Anglican bishops in Africa are hopeful that they tame the savages that have become the leadership of the CoE. Let’s hope they meet with success.


13 posted on 06/27/2008 6:42:06 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: RFEngineer

As a lifelong Catholic I have no qualms about saying that Anglican Archbishop Peter Akinola of Nigeria is one of the half dozen or so greatest Christian leaders alive today. While I believe that Anglicans should return to the Church, I am also certain that they will be in very good hands if they decide to place themselves under the primacy of Archbishop Akinola.


14 posted on 06/27/2008 6:48:52 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Tax-chick
It's shaming to have to admit that the bishops of my own Church are the chief obstacle to a significant move of Anglo-Catholic clergy and lay people into full communion with the Holy See...

This is sad and disgraceful, but perhaps calling attention to it is a good thing. As usual, of course, we have somebody revealing the "ultra secret, top-top-top-secret" whatever, which certainly doesn't seem like a good idea - but on the other hand, I doubt that the modernist UK Catholic bishops are unaware of it, and perhaps drawing a little attention to them isn't a bad idea.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor is about to retire, also, and his replacement should be announced soon. I doubt that another raving liberal is going to be appointed to that post, so this may give the horrible UK bishops more incentive to act like Catholics.

15 posted on 06/27/2008 6:49:24 AM PDT by livius
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To: NYer
On numerous occasions, I have seen posts similar to this that you have created. That is, you seem to celebrate, in a triumphal manner, anecdotes of Protestants becoming Catholic.

Why do you take so much pleasure in your persistent endeavor? Has any of these stories reported on even a single new conversion to Christ? Or do you consider that nonCatholics are heathens and only Catholics can be saved?

16 posted on 06/27/2008 7:03:46 AM PDT by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: Hebrews 11:6
Dear Hebrews 11:6,

Although non-Catholics mostly differ, Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus founded. We further believe that the Church is the Body of Christ, and only those who are part of the Body of Christ can be saved. Thus, only those within the Catholic Church can be saved.

Whether others believe it or not isn't the point; it is what we believe.

However.

We do not believe that those who are within the Church all have formal membership in the Church. We believe that there are people who are formally outside the Catholic Church who are, nonetheless, mysteriously connected to the Catholic Church in a way that is possibly salvific.

Nonetheless, our belief is that formal membership in the Catholic Church, the Church given to us by Jesus Himself, the Body of Christ, is the surest path to salvation.

Thus, why would we not rejoice when someone comes into full communion with the Catholic Church, the Body of Christ?


sitetest

17 posted on 06/27/2008 7:15:45 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

Well said!


18 posted on 06/27/2008 7:22:14 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: sitetest
Thank you for your message. It would have been helpful had you included a link or some other documentation to demonstrate that your assertions are, in fact, official Catholic policy.

I am, of course, interested in hearing NYer's own response. I may reply to you later.

19 posted on 06/27/2008 7:23:58 AM PDT by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: Hebrews 11:6; NYer
Dear Hebrews 11:6,

“It would have been helpful had you included a link or some other documentation to demonstrate that your assertions are, in fact, official Catholic policy.”

This is common knowledge of any reasonably-catechized Catholic.

If you would like a much, much deeper theological explication, you could read Dominus Iesus, written by the former Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, and approved by the late Pope John Paul II.

Here is a link:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFUNICI.HTM

If you find the previous document a little longish and a bit of rough sledding, there is an article on Wiki on Dominus Iesus that a quick scan seems to suggest gets some of the main points correct, and is very short:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominus_Iesus

You might also read the Catholic Catechism. Here is a link to an on-line copy:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

“I am, of course, interested in hearing NYer’s own response.”

Well, of course, NYer can add her own personal thoughts, but if you're looking for the reason why Catholics rejoice when people come into full communion with the Catholic Church, her answer will not be appreciably different from that of any other devout, knowledgeable Catholic.

We desire that all men be saved, and thus, that all come to the fullness of of faith in Christ through His Body, the Catholic Church.


sitetest

20 posted on 06/27/2008 7:41:08 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: wagglebee

Thanks!


21 posted on 06/27/2008 7:41:31 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: NYer
May God bless them and guide them home.

The good ones, that is. The ones who like the womyn priests and lavender priests can stay right where they are, thanks very much.
22 posted on 06/27/2008 8:20:24 AM PDT by Antoninus (Every second spent bashing McCain is time that could be spent helping Conservatives downticket.)
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To: Hebrews 11:6; NYer
On numerous occasions, I have seen posts similar to this that you have created. That is, you seem to celebrate, in a triumphal manner, anecdotes of Protestants becoming Catholic.

Christ enjoined us to be ONE. When folks who were in schism come back together, it is a cause for rejoicing.
23 posted on 06/27/2008 8:25:13 AM PDT by Antoninus (Every second spent bashing McCain is time that could be spent helping Conservatives downticket.)
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To: sitetest
Thanks for providing those links. It is my experience--and perhaps yours as well--that confident assertions by those who claim something is not only common knowledge but also official policy often turn out to be mistaken, to one degree or another.

As to my desire to let NYer speak for herself:

1. You persist in speaking for her.

2. You wrote, "...if you're looking for the reason why Catholics rejoice when people come into full communion with the Catholic Church...." That is only a part of the information I seek. My original question, which you in your overeager intervention have ignored completely and which she alone can answer, was not why she rejoiced but rather why she persists in publicly gloating in a manner that can only be taken as confrontational and antagonistic.

24 posted on 06/27/2008 8:25:36 AM PDT by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: Antoninus
When folks who were in schism come back together, it is a cause for rejoicing.

So, by your measure, then, when a Catholic becomes a Protestant, there is equal reason for rejoicing?

25 posted on 06/27/2008 8:28:25 AM PDT by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: Hebrews 11:6
So, by your measure, then, when a Catholic becomes a Protestant, there is equal reason for rejoicing?

Think about what you said. There is one Catholic Church. There are thousands of Protestant groups. The answer should be obvious.

May God bless and keep you.
26 posted on 06/27/2008 8:32:48 AM PDT by Antoninus (Every second spent bashing McCain is time that could be spent helping Conservatives downticket.)
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To: wagglebee

“While I believe that Anglicans should return to the Church, I am also certain that they will be in very good hands if they decide to place themselves under the primacy of Archbishop Akinola.”

My point was to underscore the irony of African Bishops returning the favor.

Some Eastern Orthodox folks I know have the same wish for Catholics - that they return to the Church.

There is nothing wrong with traditional Anglicanism. It is distinct from whatever it is that passes for Episcopalianism and the CoE. Some, however, feel they must become Catholics to escape the nonsense - and I am happy for them should that work for them.

There were good reasons at the time for there no longer being a catholic (small “c”) church - and there are good reasons why there won’t be any time soon. In the meantime - I’m happy for anyone who escapes the cesspool of iniquity that is the Episcopal/CoE with their soul intact.

Fortunately, they can go to the RCC and also other places to continue to actually practice their Christian faith. The good Bishop of Akinola wants to enforce a little discipline within the Anglican Communion. I hope he succeeds.


27 posted on 06/27/2008 8:44:38 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: Hebrews 11:6
Dear Hebrews 11:6,

“Thanks for providing those links. It is my experience—and perhaps yours as well—that confident assertions by those who claim something is not only common knowledge but also official policy often turn out to be mistaken, to one degree or another.”

I think that the record of Catholics here at FR to adequately represent their faith is pretty good.

“2. You wrote, ‘...if you're looking for the reason why Catholics rejoice when people come into full communion with the Catholic Church....’ That is only a part of the information I seek. My original question, which you in your overeager intervention have ignored completely and which she alone can answer, was not why she rejoiced but rather why she persists in publicly gloating in a manner that can only be taken as confrontational and antagonistic.”

Ah... you're begging the question. And possibly reading minds?

I haven't ignored your original question, but rather answered it completely.

You asked:

“Why do you take so much pleasure in your persistent endeavor?”

We ALL take much pleasure to the return home of lost sheep.

Now, you did slip in a [false] premise in your lead-up to the question, and I DID ignore that, out of a desire to give you the benefit of the doubt:

“That is, you seem to celebrate, in a triumphal manner, anecdotes of Protestants becoming Catholic.”

The hidden suggestion here, I suppose, is that the a “triumphal manner” is somehow bad, and NYer is engaging in it.

You strengthen that in your last post with:

“...why she persists in publicly gloating in a manner that can only be taken as confrontational and antagonistic.”

Now that you've stated your objection plainly (and falsely), it is no longer possible to give you the benefit of the doubt.

At least to my eyes, there isn't really anything confrontational or antagonistic to the report itself of Mr. Thompson. It's not much more than basic reporting. If you're finding the Mr. Thompson's report itself confrontational and antagonistic, then I don't know how to help you. He's merely reporting something he's heard - that some Church of England bishops are likely to leave the Church of England for the Catholic Church. You may not like the news, but reporting it isn't an inherently confrontational or antagonistic act.

Frankly, his treatment of our own Catholic bishops is far more confrontational and antagonistic (although not gloating) than his reporting of the basic facts that some Anglican bishops may be on the way out the door to Rome.

As for NYer’s commentary on it, well, you know, her comments are...

...missing.

She merely posted the article.

Without any commentary whatsoever.

It's difficult to interpret her [non-existent] comments here as gloating, or as confrontational or antagonistic.

LOL.


sitetest

28 posted on 06/27/2008 8:44:49 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: NYer

Wow!


29 posted on 06/27/2008 8:58:35 AM PDT by fortunecookie (Communism/socialism has failed millions, a lesson lost on too many.)
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To: Alex Murphy

If the man in question has been an Anglican his whole life then he has never been an apostate.


30 posted on 06/27/2008 9:33:55 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: RFEngineer; Hebrews 11:6; NYer
“Some Eastern Orthodox folks I know have the same wish for Catholics - that they return to the Church.”

Indeed we do and from what we see from +BXVI, it looks like that may well be happening.

As for detecting a degree of triumphalism occasioned by reports of ministers, priests or hierarchs becoming Roman Catholics, well I don't think you are imagining that. The Church in the West has been involved in a family feud/civil war for 500 years or so now. When one side or the other gets a “defection”, a little crowing seems inevitable. The shame of course is that after the Great Schism, matters came to such a point that a revolt occurred which, to all indications, continues to this day with no real signs of abating. It has been suggested by some Latins, even here on FR, that the almost embarrassing enthusiasm some Latin hierarchs show for reunion with Holy Orthodoxy is an indication of a very great need Rome has for the “orthodoxy” and “orthopraxis” of Orthodoxy in order to resist first the secular culture around it and second to return to a Christian mindset of the first millennium in order to meet head on the claims of Reformed theology at the pew level. I don't necessarily buy that, btw, though I think its fair to say that you won;t see that triumphalism in Orthodoxy, not because we are better people, its likely we are far worse, but rather because we don;t have a dog in your fight and really never have.

Oh, and H, NYer is one of the best Catholics of any stripe I have ever had the pleasure of knowing, not that you have implied otherwise.

31 posted on 06/27/2008 9:41:28 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Hebrews 11:6; sitetest
On numerous occasions, I have seen posts similar to this that you have created.

Yes. I maintain the 'Catholic Ping List' and post articles of interest to Catholics. Would you like to be added to the list?

That is, you seem to celebrate, in a triumphal manner, anecdotes of Protestants becoming Catholic.

??? The only comment I posted to this thread was the word: Ping! Now, if I were truly celebrating, rest assured my comment would have reflected the mood: 'Excelsior!', for example, or 'Eureeka!'

Has any of these stories reported on even a single new conversion to Christ?

Absolutely! I have posted many stories of conversions but don't keep track of them. Here is one I do remember:

Interview with Roy Schoeman - A Jewish Convert

Or do you consider that nonCatholics are heathens and only Catholics can be saved?

I don't believe that nor does the Catholic Church teach that

The reality of the situation is that the flow of high ranking protestant theologians and prelates into the Catholic Church, has made news. As the unofficial Catholic News freeper, I post these stories for the edification of all freepers, not just the catholics.

Just out of curiosity, why does this story bother you?

32 posted on 06/27/2008 10:05:10 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: Antoninus

Nice try. You lose.


33 posted on 06/27/2008 10:33:10 AM PDT by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: sitetest
You persist in missing my point profoundly, despite your arrogance, or more likely because of it. My point, dear one, is that NYer delights in repeatedly posting these articles (even without comment) in a public nonCatholic forum, with no apparent thought--or worse, care--for how that looks to nonCatholics, or how offensive that is to them.

But I am through with you now: it was not you, after all, to whom my inquiry was directed, as I have pointed out--yes--repeatedly. Let her answer.

34 posted on 06/27/2008 10:43:12 AM PDT by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: sitetest
You persist in missing my point profoundly, despite your arrogance, or more likely because of it. My point, dear one, is that NYer delights in repeatedly posting these articles (even without comment) in a public nonCatholic forum, with no apparent thought--or worse, care--for how that looks to nonCatholics, or how offensive that is to them, or whether it is a Christian thing to do at all, by any scriptural or ecclesiastical standard. Perhaps it is a surprise to you that someone might take them that way.

But I am through with you now: it was not you, after all, to whom my inquiry was directed, as I have pointed out--yes--repeatedly. Let her answer.

35 posted on 06/27/2008 10:47:39 AM PDT by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: Hebrews 11:6; NYer
Dear Hebrews 11:6,

“You persist in missing my point profoundly, despite your arrogance, or more likely because of it.”

LOL. You don't seem to like the news so you get all in a tizzy about the messenger.

“My point, dear one, is that NYer delights in repeatedly posting these articles (even without comment) in a public nonCatholic forum, with no apparent thought—or worse, care—for how that looks to nonCatholics, or how offensive that is to them.”

As is clear from NYer’s recent reply to you, you burden her posts with thoughts, emotions and attitudes that just aren't present. “Mind reading” is considered “making it personal” on the Religion Forum at FR. One is advised to try to refrain therefrom.

“Let her answer.”

She already has, and has shown that she isn't “gloating” or being “confrontational” or “antagonistic.”

One wonders what goes on in the mind of someone who thinks such things.

"But I am through with you now:"

LOL! Just who is arrogant?

Well, anyway, have a nice day.

;-)


sitetest

36 posted on 06/27/2008 10:50:48 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: NYer
Thank you for your reply, NYer. While awaiting it, sitetest and I had a slightly vigorous discussion of it in which I laid out my concerns--I am afraid my latest post appears twice (#33 & #34) due to FR's slowness just then. May I say by way of introduction that my heat in replying to him would not have appeared (at the beginning anyway!) in my inquiry to you.

First, has it occurred to you that your frequent posts of this nature might offend nonCatholics? That posting them so repeatedly cannot help but suggest your triumphal attitude? Is that really the message you want to send?

Second, regarding conversions: I was not referring to Jewish converts, as in the example you recall. Rather, I was asking if your rejoicing was due to your belief that new converts result from these Protestants becoming Catholics. Anytime someone moves from the damned column to the saved, we can all rejoice rightfully. Is that your opinion--that only Catholics can be saved? You respond that is neither your nor the Church's position (sitetest might take exception there). But that is certainly the impression you leave by these victorious postings. Each time, it's as though you're holding aloft another Protestant scalp. How would you react if Protestants responded in kind?

It might help here to describe mission experiences I have had which inform my inquiry. For example, I have gone door-to-door seeking specifically the unchurched (not to mention the unsaved) to visit our church. When we encounter people who are already churched, we do not attempt to pry them from their present church--God's kingdom would have no net gain. That includes those who attend other Protestant as well as Catholic churches. In our view, God's kingdom would not only have no net gain, but it would suffer loss from such divisive acts.

As is implicit in my original inquiry, I have been noticing these posts of yours for some time now--perhaps a dozen or more. I was offended by the first, and by each since. I refrained from comment until now because I did not know whether you would persist, or whether something or someOne might intervene. Obviously, you do persist unabashed. For your sake, then, I felt a duty to inform you of my reaction. I may be alone, though I doubt it. But you should know, in order to have the opportunity to take that into account in considering how best you should fulfill your Lord's call.

37 posted on 06/27/2008 11:20:06 AM PDT by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: NYer

I love these posts NYer...keep ‘em coming! :-)


38 posted on 06/27/2008 11:29:02 AM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
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To: Alex Murphy; BibChr; Gamecock

If all this apostasy amounts to a catastrophe, would that be an apostrophe?


39 posted on 06/27/2008 11:40:05 AM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: Larry Lucido

LOL

I can hear it. “It’s apostasy! It’s catastrophe! It’s... it’s... it’s an APOSTROPHE!”


40 posted on 06/27/2008 11:41:33 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: Hebrews 11:6

You sir seemed to be missing the point. If you find this type of post so offensive, why then do you even bother, save to insult and try to mind read?


41 posted on 06/27/2008 1:06:17 PM PDT by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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To: Jaded
I've already had two genius spiritual giants on this thread attempt to dissuade me from getting an answer to a perfectly straightforward, morally upright question put in a courteous fashion. Three's a crowd. Indeed, I could have sent her a private email--in fact, I considered it beforehand. As you see, where I come from, one actually considers the implications prior to speaking or writing (Eph.4:29).

Are you afraid to let NYer answer for herself?

And by the way, oh sage, it is not "mind-reading" to announce how one responds to another's post, nor to ask what the intent really is, which is what I am doing. I have not imputed motives, I have asked. I still await the answer. Either you can wait along with us, or you can continue making witless objections, but what you should not do is to expect another rejoinder from me.

42 posted on 06/27/2008 1:39:46 PM PDT by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: Hebrews 11:6; NYer
That is, you seem to celebrate, in a triumphal manner, anecdotes of Protestants becoming Catholic.

This shouldn't be viewed merely as an antecdote about switching church affiliation. This is about rejecting the sin that the Anglican Communion appears to have embraced and desires to institutionalize. It is cause for celebration that not all members of that church are willing to follow blithely into perdition. We should appreciate the enormous difficulty these decisions are for the members of that church and be grateful that, at least in some instances, modernism is being repudiated, and traditional morality is being affirmed. That is what is a triumph. Deo gratias.

43 posted on 06/27/2008 1:52:52 PM PDT by LordBridey
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To: Hebrews 11:6; NYer; Kolokotronis
I posted, or in some cases pinged to my Catholic conversion list, the following conversion stories:

Anti-Catholicism, Hypocrisy and Double Standards
Hauled Aboard the Ark
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part I: Darkness
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part II: Doubts
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part III: Tradition and Church
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part IV: Crucifix and Altar
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part V: The Catholics and the Pope
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part VI: The Biblical Reality
His Open Arms Welcomed Me
Catholic Conversion Stories & Resources
My Personal Conversion Story
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
Catholics Come Home
My Journey of Faith
LOGIC AND THE FOUNDATIONS OF PROTESTANTISM
"What is Truth?" An Examination of Sola Scriptura
"Have you not read?" The Authority behind Biblical Interpretation
The Crisis of Authority in the Reformation
Our Journey Home
Our Lady’s Gentle Call to Peace
A story of conversion at the Lamb of God Shrine
Who is Mary of Nazareth?
Mary and the Problem of Christian Unity
Why I'm Catholic
A Convert's Response to Friends
My Story
Courage to Be Catholic
Finally Catholic! My Conversion to the Catholic Church
Southern Baptist Pastor Leaves Everything for the Eucharist
The Short Version (the Way International convert)
Shower of Roses-- An Independent, Fundamental Baptist Becomes Catholic Through Mary's Intecession
Confessions of a Catholic Convert
Alex Jones: the evangelical who became a Catholic deacon
A TRIUMPH AND A TRAGEDY
Women's Ordination Was Non-Negotiable
Catholic Mariology, Authority, and Various Other Qualms of Protestants Considering Conversion

Also see:
Sheep That Go Astray
Pope Benedict Goes to Washington Ecumenical Meeting at St. Joseph's Church, New York
Orthodox and Catholic Churches are allies, (Orthodox) Bishop Hilarion says
How to become a Catholic

The deal with either Protestants converting or in a few cases atheists or agnostics converting. That is because I think that Protestantism is a serious theological error that since its invention by Luther endangered countless number of souls, and I want to encourage more Protestants to convert.

I do not have the same attitude toward the Orthodox Church, and in fact if one for some reason has a grudge toward the Catholic Church I would advise him to join the Orthodox Church. That is because the sacramental means of salvation are available, in the Orthodox Church, and our theological differences with them do not put souls in peril.

I thought we have a religion forum going; why is it offensive for you what I or NYer do? We are proud of our faith and want you to come to it, too.

44 posted on 06/27/2008 1:53:18 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Hebrews 11:6; NYer; sitetest
To: NYer
On numerous occasions, I have seen posts similar to this that you have created. That is, you seem to celebrate, in a triumphal manner, anecdotes of Protestants becoming Catholic.

Why do you take so much pleasure in your persistent endeavor? Has any of these stories reported on even a single new conversion to Christ? Or do you consider that nonCatholics are heathens and only Catholics can be saved?

16 posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 9:03:46 AM by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: sitetest
Thanks for providing those links. It is my experience--and perhaps yours as well--that confident assertions by those who claim something is not only common knowledge but also official policy often turn out to be mistaken, to one degree or another.

As to my desire to let NYer speak for herself:

1. You persist in speaking for her.

2. You wrote, "...if you're looking for the reason why Catholics rejoice when people come into full communion with the Catholic Church...." That is only a part of the information I seek. My original question, which you in your overeager intervention have ignored completely and which she alone can answer, was not why she rejoiced but rather why she persists in publicly gloating in a manner that can only be taken as confrontational and antagonistic. You are assuming her motives

24 posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 10:25:36 AM by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: sitetest
You persist in missing my point profoundly, despite your arrogance, or more likely because of it. My point, dear one, is that NYer delights in repeatedly posting these articles (even without comment) in a public nonCatholic forum, with no apparent thought--or worse, care--for how that looks to nonCatholics, or how offensive that is to them.

But I am through with you now: it was not you, after all, to whom my inquiry was directed, as I have pointed out--yes--repeatedly. Let her answer.

34 posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 12:43:12 PM by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: NYer
Thank you for your reply, NYer. While awaiting it, sitetest and I had a slightly vigorous discussion of it in which I laid out my concerns--I am afraid my latest post appears twice (#33 & #34) due to FR's slowness just then. May I say by way of introduction that my heat in replying to him would not have appeared (at the beginning anyway!) in my inquiry to you.

First, has it occurred to you that your frequent posts of this nature might offend nonCatholics? That posting them so repeatedly cannot help but suggest your triumphal attitude? Is that really the message you want to send?

Second, regarding conversions: I was not referring to Jewish converts, as in the example you recall. Rather, I was asking if your rejoicing was due to your belief that new converts result from these Protestants becoming Catholics. Anytime someone moves from the damned column to the saved, we can all rejoice rightfully. Is that your opinion--that only Catholics can be saved? You respond that is neither your nor the Church's position (sitetest might take exception there). But that is certainly the impression you leave by these victorious postings. Each time, it's as though you're holding aloft another Protestant scalp. How would you react if Protestants responded in kind?

It might help here to describe mission experiences I have had which inform my inquiry. For example, I have gone door-to-door seeking specifically the unchurched (not to mention the unsaved) to visit our church. When we encounter people who are already churched, we do not attempt to pry them from their present church--God's kingdom would have no net gain. That includes those who attend other Protestant as well as Catholic churches. In our view, God's kingdom would not only have no net gain, but it would suffer loss from such divisive acts.

As is implicit in my original inquiry, I have been noticing these posts of yours for some time now--perhaps a dozen or more. I was offended by the first, and by each since. I refrained from comment until now because I did not know whether you would persist, or whether something or someOne might intervene. Obviously, you do persist unabashed. For your sake, then, I felt a duty to inform you of my reaction. I may be alone, though I doubt it. But you should know, in order to have the opportunity to take that into account in considering how best you should fulfill your Lord's call.

37 posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 1:20:06 PM by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: Jaded
I've already had two genius spiritual giants on this thread attempt to dissuade me from getting an answer to a perfectly straightforward, morally upright question put in a courteous fashion. Three's a crowd. Indeed, I could have sent her a private email--in fact, I considered it beforehand. As you see, where I come from, one actually considers the implications prior to speaking or writing (Eph.4:29).

Are you afraid to let NYer answer for herself?

And by the way, oh sage, it is not "mind-reading" to announce how one responds to another's post, nor to ask what the intent really is, which is what I am doing. I have not imputed motives, I have asked. I still await the answer. Either you can wait along with us, or you can continue making witless objections, but what you should not do is to expect another rejoinder from me. [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies | Report Abuse]

Read your replies! NYer answered you more than once and you actually replied, or did you forget in so short a time? Why do you find it needful to insult people? Does that make your point any better? Perhaps before posting anymore on the religion threads you should read the guidelines.

45 posted on 06/27/2008 2:09:20 PM PDT by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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To: annalex
Thank you, annalex, for so forthrightly entering this fray. If I may sum up your explanation, in order that we can both verify I got it right, it went thus:

You believe that posting stories of Protestants converting to Catholicism will encourage other Protestants to do so as well. Out of love for them and a concern for their souls, you so post. Do I have that right?

If I may respond briefly, let me observe:

1. These posts are counterproductive to your intent. They are implicitly offensive. Have you considered whether this approach is the best way? When has insulting someone or his beliefs ever won a soul? Do you have any objective evidence that your approach has succeeded, even in a single instance? Where is the testimonial from even one person who corresponded with you after the fact to thank you for leading him to the light through this method? After such extensive efforts by you, certainly one should expect a harvest of some sort by now.

2. Does it not give you even a moment's pause to be so smug that you can make such sweeping criticism of Protestant Christianity? Are none of us Protestants capable of salvation apart from Catholicism--have you damned all of us to hell? On what basis? Don't you owe us at least a thorough explanation, or must we merely succumb to the force of your persistence?

3. You and NYer seem to have given no thought at all to the impact your demeaning posts must surely have. Why is it offensive to me, and other Protestants, to be told again and again by you in the Religion Forum that we are flat wrong and are going to hell? You can actually ask such a question? Why didn't you ask that question before making all these derisive posts? If there is no other way to make the point, perhaps mentally reversing our roles will help: What would your reaction be to a seemingly unending series of Protestant posts accusing the Catholic Church and its adherents of grave error?

46 posted on 06/27/2008 2:38:50 PM PDT by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: Hebrews 11:6; Petronski
What would your reaction be to a seemingly unending series of Protestant posts accusing the Catholic Church and its adherents of grave error?

LOL That occurs just about every single minute here. We have a Petronski. ROFL

47 posted on 06/27/2008 2:47:32 PM PDT by LordBridey
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To: Hebrews 11:6

Yes, you outlined my position correctly.

1. I have several people complimenting me on these threads, and informing me that they were helpful to them in their own conversion. Others simply appreciate a chance to better understand Catholicism. Also, my wife is a recent convert from Protestantism and she accused me of not doing enough to show the Protestants their errors.

2. I do not make a sweeping criticism. Much in Protestantism has retained the Catholic Orthodox core and is therefore very good. The love for the Holy Scripture, common among the Protestants is also a very positive example. The Catholic Chruch teaches that the Protestants can be sanctified, and therefore saved, through their love for the Scripture and their good works. Further, I only address specific problems in Protestantism that do endanger salvation of souls: the false and counterscriptural doctrines of Bible Alone, and Faith Alone, their anti-clericalism and their anti-Catholicism.

3. I do not go on Protestant threads to disrupt discussions there. My style of posting is generally calm and academic, and is based on the scripture or, if a Catholic doctrine is discussed, on Catholic catechetical material, so that I can properly explain it. I encouraged the Protestant Freepers to respond in kind and post Protestant conversion stories, but no one has taken up the challenge. Those Protestant conversion stories that I have seen tend to come from people poorly versed in Catholicism or tired of the considerable burden of obedience that the Church asks for. I have not seen a single conversion story where someone was willing to pay a price of any kind with his conversion, while I have seen numerous instances of ministers losing their entire careers, and Anglican priests losing their vocation, in order to become Catholic. These are not conversions made of ignorance or laziness. At least such are the stories I selected.


48 posted on 06/27/2008 3:03:28 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

“My style of posting is generally calm and academic,...”

This is because you have, at base, an Orthodox phronema! :)


49 posted on 06/27/2008 3:09:31 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis
Frequently, I find Orthodox sources on the Web much clearer than Catholic, and I use them. The writings by Elder Cleopa, for example, and Bishop Elias Minatios were extremely helpful, as well as most material at www.orthodoxinfo.com, as well as, of course, the Church fathers common to all of us, such as St. John Damascene or St. John Chrysostom.
50 posted on 06/27/2008 3:20:41 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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