Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
“No, you don’t.”
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh . . . well beyond mind-reading!
AS well as doing that which RC’s themselves fiercely hate being done to them.
Fascinating.
Rubbish! You appeal to a Remnant continuum as a sort of authority, no? At least, an "authority of constant witness." That's an objectively valid interpretation of your assertion. Otherwise, what does an appeal to this alleged continuum serve?
Your model of Christian truth has each man as an island of authority unto himself. This is clearly an incorrect approach. Dig deeper and try again.
Let me put it plainer. It is rank, filthy, abominable heresy for any Christian to say that all you have to do is do some nice works to get to heaven. That’s Pelagianism. Nobody is saying that, least of all me.
But if you do not see in the Bible how people are judged according to what they *do*, then you are reading a different Bible I am. The sheep and the goats that I brought up before...the sheep go to heaven, the goats to everlasting fire...and why the sheep are saved Christ says Himself: “For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink”. Nothing here about the sheep *believing* in Christ, just in doing the work of Christ. Note well that the goats called Him Lord too!!! They believed in Him as Lord, but because they did not translate that belief into action, they were damned.
Bottom line: works are not salvific in and of themselves, but they are made salvific because they are inspired by grace. This is the faith of the Church.
And let me approach your point about the Council this way. Do you read Christian authors? Theology, Biblical interpretation, things like that? If so, who do you like? And how far back do you go in terms of history? Do you read Spurgeon? Luther/Calvin?
Well, well. You're bothered that I exercised my rights under the first ammendment of the constitution and expressed that I'm entertained by ya'll's audacity. Too bad. Last time I checked the site was called the "Free Republic". Little thicker skin would serve you well.
I don’t observe RC reps having a sub-atomic particle’s worth of understanding about
my
model of Christian Truth.
I’m not “bothered” by your postings at all. But I do wonder why you tend to jump in and out of these Christian-themed threads with snide comments that contribute nothing to the discussion. By all means, exercise your constitutional rights (though, in fact they have nothing to do with posting on this forum, since it is a private, not governmental agency), but don’t pose yourself to be in sheer amazement when someone simply asks you why you bother to post snipes, when the day is short enough as it is. I certainly don’t have time to post snipes on the Noachide threads, for example. I’m surpised you bother here. Just sayin’...
You left me a HUGE hole there for me to fill by speculating about why that is so...but, no, I won’t go there!
What was this “remnant”? Please. The Southern Baptist Convention?
I would like to know what group of non-Catholic or non-Orthodox Christians existed without anyone knowing for 1500 years.
Or are you merely trying to weave a continous thread between various heresies like Gnostisicm, Arianism, Nestorianism, Pelagianism, Docetistism, Cathar-ism...etc etc, and the schismatic groups that practiced them?
I’ll tell you what-—various 1st millenium heretics were absolutely nothing like modern day “Bible” Christians
Thank you. Don’t hold your breath waiting for an answer, though. She’s been stiff-arming me on this point through several rounds of posts. Nothing is likely to change now.
Hey, we Mary-worshipping idolators have to stick together to fend off their Biblically-based righteousness! :)
I just take lessons from you guys.
By all means, exercise your constitutional rights (though, in fact they have nothing to do with posting on this forum, since it is a private, not governmental agency), but don’t pose yourself to be in sheer amazement when someone simply asks you why you bother to post snipes, when the day is short enough as it is. I certainly don’t have time to post snipes on the Noachide threads, for example. I’m surpised you bother here. Just sayin’...
Deal with it.
And you "deal with" Christians debating their differences in theology with a little less snideness delivered with no discernable purpose, then.
In other words, don't be surprised when someone asks you to "mind your own business" when you show no respect. No one disputes your "rights" here. But it is a hallmark of liberals at DU to not be able to distinguish between Liberty and License. Conservatives should know that it doesn't necessarily follow that, because they can inflict themselves into a conversation where they aren't particularly relished, it doesn't necessarily follow that they should, or that some principle is at stake unless they barge in, even with nothing to say. In spite of our differences, Quix has some "standing" with relation to the questions raised. You do not. Figure it out.
I have acquaintances who are Jehovah’s Witnesses...I say, only acquaintances, because they would never consider me a friend, because I am not a member of their faith...They have made the very same claim, that there has always been a remnant of people, who did not agree with the Catholic Church, at its very beginning, and refused to submit to the Catholic Church, instead going their own way...and the Jehovah’s Witnesses of today, will claim, that tho that remnant was not called ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’, during those early times, they were in fact, the foundational peoples, who formed the core of what we know as ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’ today....tho when you ask them who exactly who these early leaders, and early peoples making up this remnant might have been, they generally do not have a specific answer, they generally answer in broad generalities, and they usually wind up saying something like, “well, all those who disagreed with the Catholic Church, were members of that remnant”....
Now, that is what the individual JW’s I know have told me, other JW’s may say something a little different, regarding the specifics of who made up this remnant, but so far, I have not found any...
Our neighborhood, for whatever reason, has lots of JW’s and Mormons going door to door, especially on Saturday mornings, so one can get a chance to talk with and discuss things with many of them, should one so chose...so what I relate, is merely my own personal conversations and discussion with these people, and I cannot be sure, that what they are telling me, is what their particular faith itself deems to be correct...
The folks who live across the street from me, have a home church on Saturday evenings...in the early evenings, many cars start to arrive...the ladies are all carrying foods, apparently for the evening’s meal...their many children are all out in front playing...the man keep a watchful eye on the children while the ladies are inside preparing the foods...my neighbor has told me, that they are a group of ‘Christian’ folk, who have not found a church that accomodates all of their beliefs, and thus they have formed their own group, meeting at my neighbors house, for services...I suspect that they consider themselves, as well, true believers, forming a remnant, that can find no home, within any organized religion or church...I have heard that this notion of having home churches has expanded quite a bit, in recent years...
I suspect, that many churches consider themselves to be the inheritors, of the work of this ‘remnant, but I too, would like to have the specifics, on just who the specific folks were that led and made up this remnant...
Yes, I've never met a Catholic who embraced FULL Pelagianism. However, a form of semi=Pelagianism appears to be the view today.
All salvation is solely the result of God’s good graces and mercy.
In that case, would you say that Ephesians 2:8-9 is a COMPLETE answer to the question of how we are saved vis-a-vis us? :
Eph 2:8-10 : 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. NIV
For this purpose we assume it's a given that Jesus went to the cross.
The difference is that Catholics don’t think that faith is just believing. We think faith is living. In this sense, it is entirely biblical, as put forward in the Epistle of James and in the Gospels.
By "living" do you mean doing works of the Law? How would you reconcile this to the passage above? I've had Catholics tell me before that "works" in Ephesians refers to "works for pay" when that is not indicated anywhere. Nowhere does the Bible hint that anyone ever thought that earning a living was the way to Heaven. Therefore there would have been no need to speak against it. There were plenty of people, though, who thought that doing works of the Law WAS a way to Heaven.
And this is one of the BIGGEST error of the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, as the author points out, many Protestants believe the same thing.
I see 'charity' as love and 'faith' as truth.
Your profile page mentions John Piper. What is your take on this article? : Truth and Love
To me, the following describes living:
Luke 10:25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" 27 So he answered and said, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' " 28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." 29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" 30 Then Jesus answered and said: "A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.' 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?" 37 And he said, "He who showed mercy on him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."
CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
Sounds perfectly good to me. Presumably this takes care of the full Pelagianism problem. I have never seen a Catholic embrace full Pelagianism.
CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.
Sure, man cannot get to Heaven without grace. This shoots down the idea that grace just makes it easier for us to do it all on our own. Fairly noncontroversial.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.
OOPS! Here is where five-point Calvinists are issued our conditional tickets straight to hell. :) Those of us who are five-pointers do not believe in prevenient inspiration, since we see it as weak and beneath the power of God as the Bible says He exercises it. If prevenient inspiration was all that was given, then it would be a statistical certainty that Christ would lose SOME of the sheep given to Him by the Father from the foundations. The Bible is clear that this does not happen.
The only thing I'm dealing with is you possibly not being perceptive enough to discern my purposes.
In other words, don't be surprised when someone asks you to "mind your own business" when you show no respect. No one disputes your "rights" here. But it is a hallmark of liberals at DU to not be able to distinguish between Liberty and License.
Was someone surprised? Point him or her out to me>
Conservatives should know that it doesn't necessarily follow that, because they can inflict themselves into a conversation where they aren't particularly relished, it doesn't necessarily follow that they should, or that some principle is at stake unless they barge in, even with nothing to say. In spite of our differences, Quix has some "standing" with relation to the questions raised. You do not. Figure it out.
Oh I've already figured it out and I remain entertained that you and others suppose to be speaking for God. Oh and in case I haven't thanked you yet for that, thank you.
I would hope that ALL saved people do works, but that isn't what saves you. Preaching works salvation is error, period!
When you are called of God, how can you NOT do "works" for Christ? If you love Him, you serve Him. BUT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR SALVATION! I think one of the problems some denominations have is they see a person that gives to charity, helps the infirm, gives of their time to causes, and somehow they are truly a Christian bound for Heaven. Your personal relationship with Jesus is what gets you to Heaven. That same person that did the "good" works could be an atheist, or a Muslim, or Hindu. You see that in Hollywood every day. They give their money and time for a tax write off and people think they are "good people".
What you are trying to say is if I love God, I will do "works". I don't disagree with that. But it has nothing to do with salvation.
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