Popular notions, Bible clash over heaven

GRAPEVINE, Texas (BP)--Have you ever noticed that when a discussion turns to a recently deceased celebrity, someone invariably says, "I know he's looking down on us right now"? It doesn't matter how godless the person was, his peers refer to him as being in a better place and then gesture skyward.

Mark Coppenger, professor of Christian apologetics at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, sees a lamentable example of that in the 1941 poem "High Flight," which was quoted in tribute to astronauts who died in the 1986 explosion of the Space Shuttle Challenger.

Not all the astronauts were Christians "but we were told they 'slipped the surly bonds of earth to touch the face of God,'" Coppenger noted. He also recalled a cartoon in a Chicago newspaper that depicted the late sports announcer Harry Caray being welcomed by Saint Peter at the pearly gates, even though there was no evidence Caray was redeemed.

"Everywhere you turn, culture ignores the Bible to make gassy pronouncements on the afterlife," Coppenger said.

Such secular cultural perceptions are uninformed by the truth and seem to be based on the delusion that one's eternal destiny is determined either by heinous deeds or good poll numbers.

Some people assume the dearly departed are in heaven because they weren't notorious sinners. People want to believe the departed went to heaven because they know they themselves are sinners and want to believe they are not bad enough for hell. "I'm not as bad as the other guy," goes the thinking. "God will somehow understand in the end that we were pretty good people, and based on our overall behavior He should let us into heaven."

In a 2004 address at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, David Dockery, president of Union University in Jackson, Tenn., said, "Even those who retain some vague idea of heavenly bliss beyond this life are slow to acknowledge the reality of final judgment and condemnation. Modern men and women live with the mindset that there is no heaven, no hell and therefore no guilt."

Steve Lemke, provost of New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, said so much error is found in popular thinking about eternity because there's "less preaching now about heaven and hell than in previous eras." He attributes that trend to the upward social mobility of Southern Baptists.

Until the 1950s, Southern Baptists were mostly rural, small-town folks and heaven was the only respite many poor people expected from their hardscrabble existence, Lemke noted. "So we lived with hope and our eyes on the skies, awaiting Christ's return," he said.

But with increased education and income, Southern Baptists moved to suburbia and began enjoying a fairly comfortable lifestyle with a focus on coping in this world, Lemke added.

"We don't give nearly the attention we should to eternity," he said. "Popular preaching focuses on how to have a better marriage, better relationships and how to cope with struggles.

"It is important that we address these topics in preaching and teaching, of course, but not to the neglect of a focus on eternity," he said. "By this very focus on meeting needs in this world -- to the neglect of preaching on heaven and hell -- we are showing by our actions that this world is more significant than the world to come."

Malcolm Yarnell, associate professor of systematic theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, sees two causes for the neglect of preaching on eternity, both of which "reflect the power of contemporary culture to distort the message once-for-all given to the saints."

"First, our people and pastors are increasingly interested in making heaven here on earth," Yarnell said. "The modern pursuit of material wealth and comfort, alongside the overarching desire to avoid pain or physical problems of any type, is a longstanding and pervasive influence in our culture. Rather than challenging such a mindset, some of us quietly cave into the demand for sermons to consider primarily mundane matters.

"Second, the subject of hell is not exactly the most comfortable subject to address," he said. "Postmodernism, with its attendant religious inclusivism and aversion to judgment, is the dominant outlook of our cultural elite, especially in the media; to condemn non-Christians to an eternity in hell is considered impolite, even rude."

"In the 1950s of my childhood, it was easier to preach on hell because there was more widespread conviction that the Bible was true," Coppenger added. "Or perhaps it worked the other way around: There was greater respect for the Bible because ministers preached the whole counsel of God, including the reality of hell, without embarrassment, mumbling, or marketing spin."

People think about the afterlife, but they need to hear the truth amid the eschatological blather espoused by the New Age movement, Mormonism, universalism, and other false religions, Coppenger added.

Yarnell agreed: "We don't clearly enough make the biblical connection between the doctrine of heaven and hell and the life we live today. The unfortunate consequence of this neglect is that we too easily live like permanent residents of the City of Man rather than the resident aliens we are, headed to our good end as Christ's people in the City of God."

Even people on opposite sides of the Calvinism issue seem to agree on certain matters of eternity, Yarnell added.

"Both traditional Baptists and Calvinist Baptists look at Scripture as inerrant and the supreme source of our doctrine," Yarnell said. "The New Testament is filled with references to heaven and hell. There is not a page of Scripture that, directly or indirectly, does not call the hearer to consider his eternal standing before an eternal God. If you derive your proclamation from Scripture, you will preach heaven and hell. On this, all conservative Southern Baptists will agree."

Muslims may talk more about eternal consequences than do evangelicals, says former missionary Eddie Pate, associate professor of missions at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary.

"Heaven and hell are issues I talked about all the time with Muslims," Pate said. "Many of my best conversations revolved around these topics. I would guess that, during our years on the mission field, heaven and hell were topics in at least half the conversations I had with Muslims.

"Muslims believe people who follow the pillars of Islam will go to heaven -- at least they hope so," Pate added. "But Muslims can't speak with any assurance like Christians can. They can't embrace 'Christ died once for our sins, once for all, the just for the unjust that he might bring us to God' (1 Peter 3:18). They have no such confidence."

Mormons, on the other hand, teach a universalistic view of an afterlife, explained Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary President R. Philip Roberts, who has written and lectured extensively on cults.

LDS founder Joseph Smith was traumatized by the accusation that his brother who died as a teenager had gone to hell and fashioned a religion in which "everyone is going to a better place," Roberts said. "Whether you are as evil as Adolf Hitler or whatever your lifestyle, you're at least going to go into a celestial kingdom, which Mormonism teaches is a far better place than this life and world, a place of great bliss and happiness."

Smith included all his elements of an afterlife -- becoming like gods and having many wives -- after becoming involved in polygamous affairs, Roberts noted. "His doctrine of the afterlife was created to satisfy his need to provide some kind of quasi-universalism and to cover his moral failures," he said.

Preaching on the doctrines of heaven and hell are vitally important because they "teach us not only of the life to come, but teach us much about how we should live in the everyday of life today," said David Nelson, theology professor and academic vice president at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, N.C.

"The doctrine of heaven and, yes, the doctrine of hell, lead us to reflect on the greatness and goodness of God who is holy and who is love, who is beautiful and glorious," Nelson said. "To fail to teach these doctrines is to fail to teach of the fullness of God by whom we are all to be filled, as Paul puts it in Ephesians 3."

"No preacher in his right mind enjoys preaching on hell," added David Allen, theology dean at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. "Hell is a place terrible beyond imagination. But no preacher in his right mind can avoid preaching on hell. As Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:11, 'knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.'"

1) It is a biblical doctrine. Jesus spoke more about hell than about heaven. Jesus uses the word "Hades" four times in his preaching and the word "hell" 11 times. Eighteen of the 28 times Jesus uses the word "fire" in the Gospels, he is talking about hell. If there is no hell, then there is no punishment for sin.

2) We are commanded to preach the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27). The Lord will hold his preachers accountable for preaching all of the Bible, not just the parts of it people like to hear.

3) Jesus lived, died and rose again so people would not have to go to hell. Only Jesus can save someone from his sins and from hell.

"Doctrinal preaching is drastically needed in our churches," Allen said. "Believe it or not, most people in the churches want to know what God said about heaven and hell. In fact, most lost people want to know as well. When I preach on hell, I have found most people give serious attention during the message.

"Remember, one should never preach on hell as if he were glad people were going there," he added. "If you don't preach with a tear in your eye, at least preach with a tear in your heart when you preach on hell. Speaking the truth in love in the power of the Holy Spirit is a powerful thing. Trust God to bless your preaching in this area and you will not be disappointed -- and neither will your people."

Eddie Pate remembers when he first listened to a cassette tape of Jerry Spencer, his uncle, preaching on hell.

"One summer, 30 years ago, as I painted a house, I listened to that same cassette tape over and over," Pate recalled. "The title of the sermon was 'If Hell Is Hell and We Don't Tell, What Kind of People Are We?'

"The title and the theme might sound 'old school' these days, but I hear that question go through my mind almost every day," Pate said. "As leaders and pastors we must regain the passion, emotion and depth of feeling that comes from understanding that our unsaved friends are indeed lost and bound for an eternity in hell outside of Christ. We must bear precious seed, weeping."

To find the definition of good and evil, you need look no further than the Good Book. God clearly defines what He considers good to be.

You say that some acts are neutral. I disagree. Even to evaluate an act as neutral you are first determining that it is better than the bad act.

Don’t you see that this leads to the reasoning that the first act is bad and the second is good? It is your human mind that is evaluating it.

But with God, good and evil are written out in black and white.

I think of good and evil like I think of white and black. White is all color. Black is the absence of color. You may determine that there is a gray, but again, the gray is a little better than the black, in that it is X number of steps closer to white.

Your statement that all are immortal in these two verses is not so. Those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life are thrown into the lake of fire - which is their second death. It is only the redeemed that have been given immortality (see I Cor. 15:35-57) Again, it is the unredeemed that will suffer the second death by being thrown into the lake of fire. I haven't the time to list all the multitude of Scriptures that tell us that the unredeemed with suffer "death" as the penalty for sin. Romans 6;23 says that "the wages of sin is death", not "life in hell-fire." Some refer to this as a "living death", but that is self-contradictory: death is the absence of life, plain and simple. Read II Peter 3 and see what he has to say about the destruction of ungodly men and the end of the world.

I understood the "Second Death" to be total separation from God. I admit that I could be mistaken.

In fact, Revelation 20 enforces the teaching that the unredeemed with suffer the "second death", just as they suffered their "first death."

Correctamundo TD. As you say, the great white throne judgment described in Rev ch 20 is reserved for the unsaved who during their life on earth declined to accept Jesus Christ by faith in Him as their Lord and Savior. Since they declined to accept the gracious offer of Jesus to pay the penalty for their sins they will be judged according to their works in their earthly life. Which means that even one unlawful act or thought (Matt 5:28) will be found sufficient to disqualify a man or woman for eternal life and to consign him/her to eternal damnation in a place of suffering infinitely far from God's Heaven. IOW, they will be condemned to "the second death" because they refused God's free offer of eternal life through faith in His Son Jesus Christ and His atoning death in their place.

But, those who have been declared righteous by virtue of their belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God in human flesh and in His resurrection from the grave, and have confessed Him before men as Lord have had their penalty for sin paid by Jesus' atoning death (Romans 10:9-10). And wonderful wonder of wonders, His perfect righteousness has been put to their account. Because of that, and only because of that, they will not be judged at the Great White Throne judgment. Their imputed innocence of all sin well be confirmed by the angel finding their names in the Lamb's Book of Life, and they will enter into God's holy city called Heaven to reside there forever.(Rev 21:27)

Read all about it y'all, it's in the Book that many of you have in your homes but never open.

I understood the "Second Death" to be total separation from God. I admit that I could be mistaken.

But you aren't. Jesus spoke as plainly about the unbelievers' fate separated from God in an eternal hell as he did about the believers' eternal life in Heaven. (Luke 16:22-26). All men and women will die physically unless they are among those believers who will be raptured to meet Jesus in the air, but only those unbelievers who refused the free gift of salvation in their earthly lives will be condemned to hell at the Great White Throne Judgment. If physically dead unbelievers are present at that judgment, as the book of Revelation says, how can natural death be their punishment if they are condemned to the lake of fire as that passage also says they will be?

Some Christian people believe that the term "lake of fire" is descriptive of a place of mental and emotional suffering and is not literal fire, and I can't prove beyond doubt that they are mistaken. But I firmly believe that many people who spiritualize the bible wherever it offends their sensibilities are often denying the plain truth that God intends as His warnings to unbelievers of what awaits them if they persist in unbelief until their physical death.

I am making no claim that this perspective is valid or not, however, it does address the nagging feeling that some have expressed and which I have felt, that the God of the Christian scriptures seems to demand devotion rather than inspire it.

Before I became a Christian, I had this notion the God was out to get me: to PUNISH me for the things I'd done wrong.

To ZAP me for the laws i'd scorned.

After all, the popular media siad this was how He(she?) was.

Even after beCOMING a Christian, that notion was STILL there!

But I can to realize that was a strawman; put in place by one who DIDN'T want me to know God's love.

I find it very interesting that this was a topic of debate in very early Christianity (though this dissident view was ultimately suppressed) by the powers that be in those days.

I'd call it an incorrect view more than dissident.

See II Peter Chapter three - in full. Especially verses 7, 11-13.

2 Peter 3

1. Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking.
2. I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3. First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
4. They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."
5. But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
6. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
7. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
9. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
11. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12. as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
14. So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.
15. Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
16. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17. Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
18. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

If someone were to die, and then come back, would you believe their account of what happens after we die?

Luke 16:19-31
19. "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21. and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24. So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25. "But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27. "He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house,
28. for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29. "Abraham replied, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30. "`No, father Abraham,' he said, `but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31. "He said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

As you say, the great white throne judgment described in Rev ch 20 is reserved for the unsaved who during their life on earth declined to accept Jesus Christ by faith in Him as their Lord and Savior.

UNSAVED?

That's not how it reads...

Revelation 20

1. And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
2. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4. I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
7. When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8. and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
14. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I'd call it an incorrect view more than dissident.

Splitting hairs perhaps?

Prior to the fourth century there was no "New Testament". Most people could not read and there were very few "books". Most stories about the life of Jesus and what he said were passed down orally and written down much later.

It is very difficult to know what Christianity was really like in those days and how it could have evolved much differently than it did.

But I can to realize that was a strawman; put in place by one who DIDN'T want me to know God's love.

I too believe in God's love, but I believe that it transcends Christianity and all of the other beliefs.

However, I realize that you don't agree with me and I respect that.

Not really. Although Rom. 5:8 mentions that Christ "DIED" for us - meaning that we face death, not life in a lake of fire (hell?). Just like Rom. 6:23 says, "the wages of sin is death", not a miserable "life" everlastingly. Again, where in the Bible do you find the doctrine that the unredeemed with spend life after death in "hell"?

Nowhere of course. This type of thread is good because it forces people to think about "hell", but unfortunately it teaches non-biblical doctrine. What does the bible say what the fate of unrepentant sinners is?

From the beginning God is clear about what happens if you don't obey him or his laws, if you sin:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Die. Not burn eternally. Die.

And this brings up a good point. If man can die, than man isn't already "immortal". We are not eternal.

Back to Adam and Eve. What did God do when Adam and Eve sinned?

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God blocked the way to eternal life, immortal life, from man. Man is temporal. Man is physical. Man is composed of dust, dirt and clay, or at least the same elements. Man, in and of himself, is mortal.

Oh, and who was it that perpetuated the lie, the myth, that man doesn't really die?

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satan started the lie that man has an immortal soul. That we don't really "die" like God said.

Eternal life, immortal life, and immortal soul, ONLY comes through Jesus Christ.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What are the options? Perish OR eternal life. Not eternal life burning forever OR eternal life with Jesus. PERISH or eternal life.

The greek word translated "perish" means to "destroy fully".

Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

We lose our life, or we have eternal life.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God DESTROYS our SOUL and body in hell. In Gehenna fire. Our soul is what we are, not what we have. We WILL be destroyed if we reject Christ.

The letters in the NT originated within, at most, sixty to eighty years following the resurrection. Paul's letters connect to the very days of the resurrected Lord following the ascension. Trying to create the notion of vagueness will not remove the individual responsibility to accept or reject the Lord Christ. Such efforts aimed at dismissing Him and His offering to humankind are called 'vain imaginings' in scripture. If you would like more regarding the clarity/accuracy of the Gospel as conveyed to us via the NT letters from those directly connected to Jesus, do a google on Gary Habermas and view some of his video teachings on the subject as he presents the perspective of an Historian regarding the Gospel, often to college classrooms. If you would like deeper intellectual vagaries, try googling William Lane Craig. There is also a wealth of material at 'bethinking.org' in videos, audios, and written texts.

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