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The Complete Bible: Why Catholics Have Seven More Books [Ecumenical]
CUF ^

Posted on 09/06/2008 4:20:00 PM PDT by NYer

ISSUE: Catholic Bibles contain seven more Old Testament (46) books than Protestant Bibles (39). Catholics refer to these seven books as the “deuterocanon”[1] (second canon), while Protestants refer to them as “apocrypha,” a term used pejoratively to describe non-canonical books. Protestants also have shorter versions of Daniel and Esther. Why are there differences?

RESPONSE: Catholic Bibles contain all the books that have been traditionally accepted by Christians since Jesus’ time. Protestant Bibles contain all those books, except those rejected by the Protestant Reformers in the 1500’s. The chief reason Protestants rejected these biblical books was because they did not support Protestant doctrines, for example, 2 Maccabees supports prayer for the dead.[2] The term “canon” means rule or guideline, and in this context means “which books belong in the Bible (and, by implication, which do not).”

      The Catholic Old Testament follows the Alexandrian canon of the Septuagint,[3] the Old Testament which was translated into Greek around 250 B.C. The Protestant Reformers follows the Palestinian canon[4] of Scripture (39 books), which was not officially recognized by Jews until around 100 A.D.

DISCUSSION: Prior to Jesus’ time, the Jews did not have a sharply defined, universal canon of Scripture. Some groups of Jews used only the first five books of the Old Testament (the Pentateuch); some used only the Palestinian canon (39 books); some used the Alexandrian canon (46 books), and some, like the Dead Sea community, used all these and more. The Palestinian and Alexandrian canons were more normative than the others, having wider acceptance among orthodox Jews, but for Jews there was no universally defined canon to include or exclude the “deuterocanonical” books around 100 A.D.

      The Apostles commissioned by Jesus,[5] however, used the Septuagint (the Old Testament in Greek which contained the Alexandrian canon) most of the time and must have accepted the Alexandrian canon. For example, 86 percent of Old Testament quotes in the Greek New Testament come directly from the Septuagint, not to mention numerous linguistic references. Acts 7 provides an interesting piece of evidence that justifies the Apostolic use of the Septuagint. In Acts 7:14 St. Stephen says that Jacob came to Joseph with 75 people. The Masoretic Hebrew version of Genesis 46:27 says “70,” while the Septuagint’s says “75,” the number Stephen used. Following the Apostles' example, Stephen clearly used the Septuagint.[6] (We also know from other ancient Christian documents, like the Didache[7] and Pope St. Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians, that the apostles’ successors not only used the Septuagint, but quote from all of the books in the Alexandrian canon as the authoritative word of God.)

      There is no divinely inspired “table of contents” for the Bible, therefore, Christians need an authority, like the infallible Church established by Christ, to discern which books are the divinely inspired ones. (Indeed, even if there were such a “table of contents” list, we would need an authority to tell if the list itself were inspired.) Even many Evangelical Protestant Bible scholars admit this:

While we know that at the time of Jesus there were different canons of the Old Testament because the canonical process was not yet complete, the glorious truth is that God has invited humans to be partners in the putting together of Scripture. I think the implications are that you cannot have Scripture without the community of faith [in other words, the Church]. It’s not just a private revelation. God gives us Scripture, but then the [Church], by God’s guidance, has to choose what’s in and what’s out.”[8]

      Why don’t the Jews accept the Alexandrian canon now, though? They follow after their predecessors, who around 100 A.D. decided that the Septuagint which followed the Alexandrian canon had at least two problems: First, it was written in Greek, which after the destruction of Jerusalem by Gentiles seemed “un-Jewish” or even “anti-Jewish.”[9] Second, Christians, following the lead of their apostolic leaders, widely used the Septuagint, especially in apologetics to the Jews; thus, non-Christian Jews wanted to deny the value of some of its books, such as the Book of Wisdom, which contains a profound prophecy of Christ’s death.

      In the words of Protestant Septuagint scholar Sir Lancelot Benton:

The veneration with which the Jews had treated this [Septuagint] (as it is shown in the case of [Jewish historians] Philo and Josephus), gave place to a very contrary feeling when they found how it could be used against them [i.e., in Christian apologetics]: hence they decried the [Septuagint] version, and sought to deprive it of any authority.[10]

      What are the classic Protestant arguments against the seven deuterocanonical books? Their major objection is that the deuterocanonicals contain doctrines and practices, such as the doctrine of purgatory and praying for the dead, that are irreconcilable with authentic Scripture. This objection, of course, begs the question. If the deuterocanon is inspired Scripture, then those doctrines and practices are not opposed to Scripture but part of Scripture. Another objection is that the deuterocanonical books “contain nothing prophetic.” This is clearly proved false by comparing Wisdom 1:16-2:1 and 2:12-24 to Matthew’s passion account, especially Matthew 27:40-43.

      Many Protestants also argue that, because neither Jesus nor His apostles quote the deuterocanonical books, they should be left out of the Bible. This claim ignores that Jesus nor His apostles do not quote Ecclesiastes, Esther or the Song of Songs, nor even mention them in the New Testament; yet Protestants accept these books. Furthermore, the New Testament quotes and refers to many non-canonical books, like pagan poetry quoted by Paul and Jewish stories referred to by Jude, which neither Protestants nor Catholics accept as Scripture. Clearly New Testament quotation, or the lack thereof, cannot be a reliable indicator of Old Testament canonicity. (This also begs the question of which books belong in the New Testament and which do not.)

      Other Protestants argue that today’s Jews do not accept the deuterocanon. This objection is problematic for two reasons. The first is why the Jews reject those books (see above). These books are rejected by Jews on the basis of bias against Christianity, something to which Protestants should not want to support. The second problem is this: Why should Christians accept the authority of post-Church-establishment, non-Christians instead of the Apostles of the Church that Christ founded? Would God found a Church and then let it fall into grave error concerning the Old Testament canon? This is an untenable position for any Christian to take.

      Others point to St. Jerome's “rejection” of deuterocanonical material. While Jerome was originally suspicious of the “extra” Old Testament books, which he only knew in Greek, he fully accepted the judgment of the Church on the matter, as shown in a letter written in 402 A.D.:

What sin have I committed if I follow the judgment of the churches? . . . I was not relating my own personal views [when I wrote the objections of the Jews to the longer form of Daniel in my introduction], but rather the remarks that [the Jews] are wont to make against us [Christians who accept the longer form of Daniel], (Against Rufinius, 11:33, emphasis added).[11]

      Remember that Protestants reject the longer, Alexandrian version of Daniel; St. Jerome did not.

      Still more Protestants claim that the Church did not authoritatively define the canon of Scripture until the Council of Trent and, since that Council was a reaction to the Reformation, the deuterocanon can be considered an “addition” to the original Christian canon. This is also incorrect. Regional councils of the early Church had enumerated the books of the Bible time and again prior to the Reformation, always upholding the current Catholic canon.[12] Examples include the Council of Rome (382), the Council of Hippo (393), and the Third and Fourth Councils of Carthage (397, 418).[13] All of these affirmed the Catholic canon as we know it today, while none affirmed the Protestant canon.

      This exact canon also had the total support of important Church Fathers like St. Augustine (Christian Instruction, 397).[14] In 405, Pope St. Innocent also taught the Catholic canon in a letter to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse,[15] the same year that St. Jerome completed the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible at the request of the Popes. A thousand years later, while seeking reunion with the Copts, the Church affirmed the same canon at the ecumenical[16] Council of Florence in 1442.[17] When the canon became a serious issue following the Protestant schism in the early 1500s, Trent dogmatically defined what the Church had consistently taught for more than 1,000 years.

      R.C. Sproul, a prominent Protestant theologian, asserts that we must accept the Bible as a “fallible collection of infallible books,” and many Protestants find this idea appealing. There are serious problems with this position however. The chief problem is this: While it acknowledges that infallible books exist somewhere in the world, it implies that we can have no guarantee that all, or indeed any, of those infallible books are in the Bibles Christians use. If the collection is fallible, the contents are not necessarily the books which are infallible. How do we know, then, that John's Gospel, which all Christians accept, is legitimately Scripture, while the so-called “Gospel of Thomas,” which all Christians reject, is not? Sproul’s statement points to the need for an authority outside the Bible so that we can have an infallible collection of infallible books. It is ultimately contradictory to believe in the Bible’s infallibility, and the reliability of its canon, without believing in the Church’s infallibility.[18]

      To answer the question, “Who decided which books are in the Bible?” we must inevitably recognize the authoritative Church that Christ founded, the Church that infallibly discerned with God's guidance which books belonged and which didn’t.[19] This means recognizing that the longer Old Testament canon is the correct one.

Recommended Reading:

 

Holy Bible

Catechism of the Catholic Church (Paperback and Hardback available)

By What Authority? . . . Catholic Tradition; Mark P. Shea

The Catholic Church and the Bible; Fr. Peter Stravinskas

Jesus, Peter, & the Keys: A Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy; Butler, Dahlgren, and Hess

Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church; Henry Graham; Catholic Answers

 

To order, call Benedictus Books toll-free:  (888) 316-2640. CUF members receive a 10% discount.

 

Catholic for a Reason, Hahn, Scott, et al.

Mission of the Messiah, Gray, Tim

 

To order, call Emmaus Road publishing toll-free: (800) 398-5470.

 

 

Available Faith Facts:

 

• Sola Scriptura? Not According to the Bible

• Rock Solid: The Salvation History of the Catholic Church

• What’s in a Name?: Protocanon, Deuterocanon, Apocrypha

 

 

© 2002 Catholics United for the Faith, Inc.

Last edited: 6/14/02

 

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[1] The seven deuterocanonical books are Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, and 1 and 2 Maccabees.

[2] For similar reasons, Martin Luther rejected the canonicity of the Letter of James in the New Testament. However, his Protestant counterparts included James. James is part of the New Testament deuterocanon, which also includes 2 and 3 John, 2 Peter, Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation. Protestants accept the New Testament deuterocanon, but not the Old Testament deuterocanon. See CUF’s “What’s in a Name?” Faith Fact, which further explores the distinction between the protocanon, deueterocanon, and the apocrypha.

[3] The Septuagint is often abbreviated as “LXX.”

[4] The Palestinian canon is sometimes called “Masoretic” after the medieval rabbis called “Masoretes.”

[5]  Cf. Mt. 28:19-20; 1 Tim. 3:15. For more information on the biblical and other historical roots of the Church, see CUF Faith Fact “Rock Solid: The Salvation History of the Catholic Church.”

[6] The Septuagint simply includes five more descendants of Jacob than does the Masoretic text, apparently arriving at 75 by considering the general time frame that Jacob’s clan came into Egypt (Gen. 46:27), as opposed to counting only those who were with Jacob upon his entrance.  The five are from Joseph’s line, via his sons Manasseh and Ephraim.  In Genesis 46:20, the Septuagint lists two descendants of Manasseh: a son, Machir; and a grandson Galaa’d.  Three descendants of Ephraim are also provided: two sons, Sutalaa’m and Taa’m; and one grandson, Edem (Alfred Rahlfs, Septuaginta (Stuttgart, Germany: Deutstche Bibelgesellschaft, 1979), p. 77.

[7] The Didache is a first-century document that contain teachings of Christ’s apostles (cf. Acts 2:42).

[8] Dr. Peter Flint, an Evangelical Protestant theologian who earned his doctorate at the University of Notre Dame, quoted in Christianity Today, October 6, 1997. (emphasis added)

[9] Scholars now know, based on evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls, that some of the deuterocanonical books previously existed in Hebrew. The Jews of 100 A.D. did not know this.

[10] Sir Lancelot C. L. Benton, Introduction to The Septuagint With Apocrypha, Hendrickson Publishers, 1997.

[11] In addition, the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible, which St. Jerome finished around 406 A.D. at the request of the Popes, included the deuterocanonical books.

[12] Some Protestants will cite the writings of St. Melito, Bishop of Sardis, who wrote in the late first century, and St. Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in the mid-fourth century. Both saints affirmed the Old Testament canon as best they knew it, and did exclude several deuterocanonical books. However, fatal to the Protestant position, Melito included Wisdom and Athanasius included Baruch while omitting all of Esther; so neither affirmed the Protestant canon. See William J. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1. Collegeville, Minn.: The Liturgical Press, 1970, 81 (no. 190) and 341-42 (no. 791).

[13] R.C. Fuller, “The Old Testament Canon,” in Fuller, Reginald; Johnston, Leonard; and Kearns, Conleth; A; A New Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture. Nashville, Tenn.: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1975, 26.

[14] This canon was, of course, supported by many more Church Fathers than these, but these are examples of early Church Fathers who give an exact list of the canonical books.  Most Church Fathers took the canon for granted, quoting the Scriptures—including the deuterocanon—without formally listing them, which is even more telling.

[15] Later, Pope St. Gregory the Great spoke of 1 Maccabees as being among “those books which, though not canonical, were produced for the edification of the Church.” However, Pope Gregory’s statement was not a formal, universal teaching for the faithful. See Fuller, “The Old Testament Canon,” A New Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, 26.

[16] The term “ecumenical” literally means “universal,” meaning that an ecumenical council is one in which the college of bishops from around the world are meeting in union with the Pope.

[17] Florence issued a binding decree on the subject; Trent affirmed Florence with its dogmatic definition.

[18] G. K. Chesterton’s Conversion and the Catholic Church, which is currently available in a collection of his works from Ignatius Press (800-651-1531), contains a humorous and rather convincing “man on the street” scenario about this topic.

[19] The Church is a crucial authority for Christians: Mt. 16:18-19; 1 Tim. 3:15; Jn. 14:26, 16:13; 2 Thess. 2:15, 3:6.  See also Dei Verbum, Vatican II’s Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, especially chapter II.

 


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: bible; canon; scripture; septuagint
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1 posted on 09/06/2008 4:20:02 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

For your reflection and discussion.


2 posted on 09/06/2008 4:21:11 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: NYer
Youtube of Convention

Triumph the Insult Comic Dog hanging with some freepers and lurkers
3 posted on 09/06/2008 4:29:11 PM PDT by Fred (The Democrat Party is the Nadir of Nihilism)
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To: NYer
Oddly the whole premese seems to be refuted by the article itself....here it says:

Protestant Bibles contain all those books, except those rejected by the Protestant Reformers in the 1500’s.

Then later it states:

DISCUSSION: Prior to Jesus’ time, the Jews did not have a sharply defined, universal canon of Scripture. Some groups of Jews used only the first five books of the Old Testament (the Pentateuch); some used only the Palestinian canon (39 books); some used the Alexandrian canon (46 books), and some, like the Dead Sea community....

Obviously there was a precedent for the Protestant Old Testament in the Palestinian canon predating Christ. So to state the Protestant canon was some 1500's creation with sinister motives is just flat out wrong.

4 posted on 09/06/2008 4:33:11 PM PDT by Always Right (Obama: more arrogant than Bill Clinton, more naive than Jimmy Carter, and more liberal than LBJ.)
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To: NYer

The message of salvation is brief. Why add more books?


5 posted on 09/06/2008 4:33:15 PM PDT by Brian S. Fitzgerald
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To: Brian S. Fitzgerald
The message of salvation is brief. Why add more books?

Why eliminate them?

6 posted on 09/06/2008 4:37:38 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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bfl


7 posted on 09/06/2008 4:41:21 PM PDT by Titan Magroyne ("Drill now drill hard drill often and give old Gaia a cigarette afterwards she deserves it." HerrBlu)
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To: NYer
The Complete Bible: Why CatholicsProtestants Have Seven MoreFewer Books [Ecumenical]

Fixed it for you. No charge.

Don't give the other side lexical benefit.

8 posted on 09/06/2008 4:42:32 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Always Right
Oddly the whole premese seems to be refuted by the article itself....here it says:

Speed reading was never my forte. You jumped over the response. I suggest you go back and read the post through.

9 posted on 09/06/2008 4:43:13 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer

Because they don’t add anything to salvation which is with Jesus Himself - you believe on Jesus and your salvation is assured.


11 posted on 09/06/2008 4:45:01 PM PDT by SkyDancer ("Warning - Hurricane Sarah Is Coming")
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To: markomalley
Fixed it for you. No charge.

Thanks That might explain why some posters post comments without reading the entire text ;-0

12 posted on 09/06/2008 4:47:15 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: NYer

bookmark


13 posted on 09/06/2008 5:04:17 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: NYer

Thank you for posting this. It is a question that I have wondered about for many years.


14 posted on 09/06/2008 5:06:59 PM PDT by skimask (Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience)
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer
FTR, many Jews think the Hebrew Bible has 24 books.

ML/NJ

16 posted on 09/06/2008 5:10:18 PM PDT by ml/nj
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: Always Right

Actually, it doesn’t. If you read it again it might be clearer. It talks about why the Jews rejected the version used by the Apostles and that version was later seized on by the Protestant Reformers.


18 posted on 09/06/2008 5:42:55 PM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local communist or socialist party chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing.)
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To: NYer
When the canon became a serious issue following the Protestant schism in the early 1500s, Trent dogmatically defined what the Church had consistently taught for more than 1,000 years.
Consistently? On the bright side, given the variety of ancient opinions on New Testament Canon, it's a minor miracle that Protestants and Roman Catholics can agree on that much. :)
19 posted on 09/06/2008 6:02:20 PM PDT by Zero Sum (Liberalism: The damage ends up being a thousand times the benefit! (apologies to Rabbi Benny Lau))
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To: Always Right

You wrote:

“Obviously there was a precedent for the Protestant Old Testament in the Palestinian canon predating Christ.”

What Palestinian canon predated Christ?

“So to state the Protestant canon was some 1500’s creation with sinister motives is just flat out wrong.”

No, it’s true. Even Protestants sometimes admit this albeit without the “sinsiter” idea. Take a look at the works of the Lutheran (IIRC) Albert C. Sundberg.

You also might want to read the book by Gary Michuta called Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger: http://www.handsonapologetics.com/index.htm


20 posted on 09/06/2008 6:02:43 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: Brian S. Fitzgerald; Religion Moderator
This is an Ecumenical thread. No antagonism. Perhaps you have not read the Religion Moderaotr's Guidelines for Ecumenical threads
22 posted on 09/06/2008 8:11:12 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer
For additional information consider these FR links.

The Complete Bible: Why Catholics Have Seven More Books [Ecumenical]

Beginning Catholic: Books of the Catholic Bible: The Complete Scriptures [Ecumenical]

Beginning Catholic: When Was The Bible Written? [Ecumenical]

The Complete Bible: Why Catholics Have Seven More Books [Ecumenical]

U.S. among most Bible-literate nations: poll

Bible Lovers Not Defined by Denomination, Politics

Dei Verbum (Catholics and the Bible)

Vatican Offers Rich Online Source of Bible Commentary

Clergy Congregation Takes Bible Online

Knowing Mary Through the Bible: Mary's Last Words

A Bible Teaser For You... (for everyone :-)

Knowing Mary Through the Bible: New Wine, New Eve

Return of Devil's Bible to Prague draws crowds

Catholic and Protestant Bibles: What is the Difference?

Glimpsing Words, Practices, or Beliefs Unique to Catholicism [Bible Trivia]

Should We Take the Bible Literally or Figuratively?

Church and the Bible(Caatholic Caucus)

Doctrinal Concordance of the Bible [What Catholics Believe from the Bible] Catholic Caucus

Pope Urges Prayerful Reading of Bible

Catholic Caucus: It's the Church's Bible

How Tradition Gave Us the Bible

The Church or the Bible

23 posted on 09/06/2008 8:14:23 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: IrishCatholic

Our Bible’s bigger than your Bible!

I think we should add the Gospel of Thomas to the mix.


24 posted on 09/06/2008 8:27:40 PM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: Salvation; Religion Moderator
This is an Ecumenical thread. No antagonism.

Then explain your post 22....

25 posted on 09/06/2008 9:08:20 PM PDT by Always Right (Obama: more arrogant than Bill Clinton, more naive than Jimmy Carter, and more liberal than LBJ.)
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To: Always Right

Post 22 is not antagonistic.


26 posted on 09/06/2008 9:10:16 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

I meant 21, sorry.


27 posted on 09/06/2008 9:19:22 PM PDT by Always Right (Obama: more arrogant than Bill Clinton, more naive than Jimmy Carter, and more liberal than LBJ.)
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To: NYer
This is good. I'll read it more completely tomorrow.
28 posted on 09/06/2008 9:29:28 PM PDT by Barnacle (Obama or Pistol Pack'n Momma? You decide 2008.)
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To: NYer
Let's see...One one side we have your popes and Catholic 'historical' writings...On the other side, we have the actual words of God...

Luk 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Jesus appears to know exactly what the Scripture is and what is contained in the Scripture...

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Seems that Jesus thinks the slow of heart and the fools have ALL of the WORDS that the prophets spoke...

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Again, they had ALL the Scriptures in front of them...

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

And there, Jesus lays it out...There's the O.T. canon...

So it seems that the OT canon was well established long before Jesus or your church showed up...And the Jewish believers, as we know historically rejected any and all of the extra books which your church later on said were part of the canon...

That settles the thing before your theory ever got off the ground...

29 posted on 09/07/2008 12:02:20 AM PDT by Iscool (If Obama becomes the President, it will be an Obama-nation)
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To: Iscool
And the Jewish believers, as we know historically rejected any and all of the extra books which your church later on said were part of the canon...

That isn't true. As the original article states (and has been stated numerous times on this Forum), there was no set canon of the OT. Jews certainly did believe all the books used by Catholics were to be included. Jewish believers AFTER CHRIST then historically rejected the deuterocanon - mostly because it was so very indicative of Him.

30 posted on 09/07/2008 7:41:37 AM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
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To: thefrankbaum
As the original article states (and has been stated numerous times on this Forum), there was no set canon of the OT.

I don't care how many times you repeat that there was no canon...Jesus quoted from the OT canon...Jesus read from the completed canon of the OT scriptures...The Law, the Prophets and the Psalms...Jesus authored the canon and settled it...

It was completed...The Levites knew it was completed...They wrote it...You think the Levites waited around for a bunch of Catholics to tell them what was scripture and what wasn't???

31 posted on 09/07/2008 11:54:56 AM PDT by Iscool (If Obama becomes the President, it will be an Obama-nation)
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To: Iscool; Salvation
So what was the deal with all those Jews not in Judea? Were they just denying their faith? As to the number quotes of the OT in the NT, I believe Salvation has a list of Scripture quotes comparing the NT with the Deuterocanon.
32 posted on 09/07/2008 5:35:51 PM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
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To: NYer; freeplancer; Elsie; Alamo-Girl
I'm not a Catholic, however was born again in a born again Catholic Church, and my first and favorite Bible — even to this day — is the Jerusalem Bible.

My only very personal and subjective and not academic or scholarly thought about the “extra” books was my reaction to these books when I devoured my Bible as an eighteen year old.

When I would read the book of Wisdom or the stuff about Susannah in Daniel or the added stuff in Esther... it just seemed like some old Hebrew guy's idea of philosophy. I tended to wander from these added books simply because they did not “feed” me as the other Scripture did.

The metaphysical implications of the Word — "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God... and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” tells us that your post is very important.

You are actually saying that these other books are, metaphysically, God Himself.

Until I scanned this article, I tended to believe that the Canonical books were because of New Testament references to them. But this does put a few books like Song of Solomon out of the running, I suppose.

I wish I had more time in my life to really investigate why the Protestant scriptures are thus. For now, I've got to take the stand I took as a teenaged new believer and just hug my tattered old, now taped and coverless Jerusalem Bible, (not the New Jerusalem, btw) and do a Thomas Jefferson and skip the added texts. They didn't feed me. They weren't “alive and active, able to cut through the secret thoughts and emotions” like the double-edged sword of the Word.

Perhaps as an add on, when Jesus took this sword of the Spirit (the Word) to counter the Devil's twisted arguments against Him in the temptation in the desert, He used traditional texts to triumph over Satan's schemes.

This is the true import of the Word of God. “To pull down strongholds, and every argument that resists the knowledge of God”. Without God's breathed inherent power of the logical truth of the Word, we cannot be apologists for Him. We cannot disentangle the lies of the Enemy off the unbelievers we minister to. This article seems to skip the work-a-day necessity of the Word.

Those are my only concerns with it. Have no anti Catholic feeling except we don't need any other intermediary but Christ to God and every Catholic I know understands that.

Sorry if sounded preachy or off topic. I'll leave with my fave Jerusalem Bible quote:

“I am a cypress ever green... All of your fruitfulness comes from Me.”

Bless you bro for the post.

33 posted on 09/08/2008 10:28:51 PM PDT by IreneE (Live for nothing or die for something.)
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To: IreneE
Thank you so much for sharing your testimony and insights, dear sister in Christ!
34 posted on 09/08/2008 10:45:23 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: NYer
Why Catholics Have Seven More Books [Ecumenical]

Big deal.

The Mormons say THAT compliation is faulty and they have even MORE books than Catholics!

35 posted on 09/09/2008 7:00:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: IreneE
You are actually saying that these other books are, metaphysically, God Himself.

The THEME of last Sunday's sermon...

36 posted on 09/09/2008 7:02:47 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Brian S. Fitzgerald
The message of salvation is brief. 
 
AMEN!!

John Chapter 6
 23.  Then some boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the people had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks.
 24.  Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.
 25.  When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"
 26.  Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.
 27.  Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
 28.  Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
 29.  Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
 30.  So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?
 31.  Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "
 32.  Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33.  For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34.  "Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."
 35.  Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
 36.  But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

37 posted on 09/09/2008 7:05:08 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: NYer

Good tagline!

VERY good!!


38 posted on 09/09/2008 7:06:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: NYer

A useful post.


39 posted on 09/09/2008 7:07:22 AM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: freeplancer
This is an "Ecumenical" thread in the Religion Forum. Antagonism is not allowed.

Click on my profile page for guidelines pertaining to the Religion Forum.

43 posted on 09/09/2008 7:52:16 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator
Antagonism is not allowed.

I guess posting MORMON 'scripture' in a CATHOLIC thread sure would be considered ANTAGONISTIC!!

Here: look it up for yourself:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/14

44 posted on 09/09/2008 11:42:45 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

You must have a very cool Pastor.

Wish I could say the same, mine got stolen by that Apostolic Prophetic Lakeland stuff. Bless him but I miss fellowship and need it.

Where do you go to church, E?


46 posted on 09/09/2008 11:50:10 AM PDT by IreneE (Live for nothing or die for something.)
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To: IreneE

Member of the WESLEYAN denomination


47 posted on 09/09/2008 8:06:18 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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