Posted on 09/07/2008 7:43:46 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953
There are some who argue Christians go directly to heaven when they die. They say Hades was broken up at the resurrection of Christ; Paradise was transported to heaven, and now only the wicked go to Hades to await the resurrection. If this seems strange to you, there is good reason--the Bible does not teach it.
The statements of the Lord in reference to the rich man and Lazarus ought to settle the matter. He said the wicked go to torments, the righteous to Abraham's bosom, and they are separated by a great, impassable gulf (Lk. 16:19-31). But, again, some say Hades was torn apart at the resurrection of Christ. The Bible says Hades will give up the dead at the judgment (Rev. 20:11-14).
Moreover, Jesus said, When you give a dinner or a supper, do not ask your friends, your brothers, your relatives, nor rich neighbors, lest they also invite you back, and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just (Lk. 14:12-14). Repayment, reward, is given at the resurrection. When will the resurrection take place? When a person dies or when the Lord returns? Obviously, when the Lord returns (1 Cor. 15:20-24). This cannot be answered by those who believe Christians go directly to heaven at death. Further evidence of this comes from Paul. He said, For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing (2 Tim. 4:6-8).
The crown of righteousness, the crown of life, the incorruptible crown for which we strive, will be given "on that Day," at "His appearing," not before (1 Cor. 9:24-27). "I charge you therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;" (2 Timothy 4:1) If the judgment is to be at his appearing, then no one will be allowed into heaven until that day. Paul said, "Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels" (2 Thes. 1:6-7). "Rest" will be given to the faithful child of God "when the Lord Jesus is revealed." That is the second coming, "when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed" (2 Thes. 1:10).
The Lord will not be revealed before "that Day." Peter also teaches that eternal salvation is not enjoyed until the judgment. He said there is "an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1:4-5). "Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully on the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 1:13).
Finally, hear Peter on Pentecost: "For David did not ascend into the heavens..." (Acts 2:34). This is true even though Christ came forth from the grave and ascended into heaven. Those who say Christ's resurrection broke up the Hadean world, and that He took Paradise with Him to heaven, contradict the words of Peter. David, no doubt in Paradise, is not in heaven. The idea that Hades is broken, that Jesus took Paradise with Him to heaven, is pure fantasy. There is no evidence in the book of God for it. That is why it sounds so strange to our ears.
We want to examine two passages used to advocate the idea that Christians are now in heaven. First, Paul said, "For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better" (Phil. 1:23). It is argued that Paul said he would be with Christ when he died. Well, the Hebrew writer said, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27). Does this mean we face the judgment individually at the time we die? Will there be billions of days of judgment? No. There is one judgment day (cf. Jn. 5:28-29). This passage simply gives a summary about what will happen, death then judgment (they are sure to come). Likewise, Paul mentions he will be with Christ after death. Second, Paul said, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus" (1 Thes. 4:14). It is pointed out that this means "those who sleep in Jesus" are in heaven with Jesus and will come back with Him on the last day. Why, then, will they come back if they are already in heaven? All this says is that those who are dead in Christ will come back when Christ does. He will bring them out of the Hadean world, give them a new body fit for eternity (cf. Jn. 5:28-29; 1 Cor. 15:42-54). Do Christians go directly to heaven when they die? No. They go to Hades, to "Abraham's bosom" and await the resurrection of the dead (Lk. 16:19-31; Jn. 5:28-29).
I’ll get right on it.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
First Thessalonians, Chapter 4, KJV
Rather difficult to rise from the dead to meet Christ, if one is already in heaven.
Note: reasons I'm quoting the KJV is because it's in the public domain and that's the version I memorized once.
Prior to the coming of Christ and dying on the cross for our sins there was that “gulf”. After Christ rose from the dead then there was a heaven and hell for sinners. Heaven was there prior to Christ dying for us but none of us were worthy of heaven till He came and paid our price.
In the New Testament this verse should suffice:
2Cor.5:
[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
When you die you are present with the Lord. The assumption is that you are a believer. The converse is true as well. If you are NOT a believer then you will NOT be present with the Lord - hell will be your destination . There is nothing in between.
If that's true.....then what would be the necessity of a resurrection?
There is no scripture that says one goes anywhere....but the grave after death. There are a multitude of scriptures that speak of a resurrection.
YOur soul or spirit goes to heaven. Your body like Christs is resurrected and united with your soul/spirit. THAT is what that refers to.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Will waiting 1000 years feel different than waiting only 10 days? Will there be a "real" consciousness of time without physically experience the rising of the sun in the morning, and the setting of the sun in the evening? Will being in a "spiritual" state as opposed to a "physical" state relieve us from the pressure of time, kind of like "transcending time"? Will a thousand years feel like a day? What will "awaiting the resurrection" consist of? Will we eat? Will we sleep? Partially or constantly? Will we be able to travel in this area called "Abraham's Bosom"? If not, who were those really at the Mount of Transfiguration and where did they come from? Will the Lord be in Hades with Abraham in Abraham's bosom? What does "absent from the body, present with the Lord" mean?
Don't have an opinion in this area. Just some more questions to raise concerning the topic. For me it doesn't matter. Either way, I know where I am going.
A preterist sees this whole discussion in a different light. I agree with all of the arguments here, with the exception that they only apply to the time between Christ's life on Earth and the Day of the Lord - the Judgment, the Resurrection, the "Second Coming" - which occurred in 70 AD. At that time Hades *was* destroyed, and since then the answer to the question discussed here has been "yes" - Christians go directly to heaven when they die.
For a futurist - i.e. a premillennialist, postmillennialist, or amillennialist - the arguments here are valid, and there is no consistent way to argue that Christians go straight to heaven at death, even though most futurists believe this.
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
2nd Kings 00029 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Read your bible and learn.
This a gentle, tactful suggestion, or blatant arrogant sin? Hard to tell. The typed word carries no intonation.
"I am one of the old-fashioned people who believe the doctrine of the Millennium and that there will be two distinct resurrections of the dead-first, of the just; second, of the unjust; which last resurrection will not commence till one thousand years after the resurrection of the elect. In this glorious interval of one thousand years Christ will reign in Person over the kingdom of the just."
Being a trained Hebrew Scholar and Lawyer, Paul knew this: [Ecclesiastes 3:19] For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. He also knew this: [Psalms 146:3-4] Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. And......[Ecclesiastes 9:5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Being a Christian, Paul knew this: [John 5:25] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. He also knew this: [John 5:28-29] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. ......And this: Paul knew that at the time of death his thoughts would perish and he would have no memory of time passing. Paul knew that the very next instant after he closed his eyes in death.....they would be reopened in the resurrection....and he would be with his Saviour. He probably did not realize that thousands of years would go by as most of the Apostles believed Our Saviour's return would be much sooner. Notice the reference in [Thessalonians 4:16-17] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Think about it..........If souls were already in heaven from the time they died.....then why should Our Saviour come back at all? Why should these souls in heaven be placed back into their old decayed bodies and resurrected. Then the whole process of going to heaven starts all over again??????
The necessity for the ressurection is to regenerate your physical body and return your soul to it. That is how we were created. At death the soul leaves the physical body. Resurrection puts things back the way they are supposed to be. Death and the grave have no victory over us.
Paul, 2nd Corinthians letter. Absent from the body, present with the Lord.
So where does Darby think the just are?
[Matthew 17:3] And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him......but, in (verse 9) Our Lord says this: And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. It wasn't real.....it was a vision!
[II Kings 2:1][2:11] And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Wrong heaven. This heaven to which Elijah was taken was simple the sky! Notice that the company of prophets from Jericho in (verse 16) seem to even think he has been taken to another valley....or on some mountain. [II Chronicles 21:12] And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah. This is taking place about ten years after the chariot incident in [II Kings]! Elijah was taken to the First heaven....the sky.
[Job 35:11] Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth, and maketh us wiser than the fowls of heaven.
I think that you have read to much into a simple answer.
What would you of done in the time of Christ if you had been healed and He said go and sin no more? Would you of thought that He was being arrogant by telling you not to sin?
You are absolutely correct and that is called the first resurrection. The second resurrection is the white throne judgment for those who did not accept Christ in this life.
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