Biships and deacons

titus ch 1 and 1 timothy ch 3 | 9-20 -08 | ravenwolf

[ravenwolf]

Is there any place where any apostles were apointed except by the apostles themselves in acts 1- 22 ---------------------------------------------------- act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. ------------------------------------------------------ I see where Timothy and Titus were given authority to apoint bishops and deacons, from the older or more mature men in the church but I do not see any evidence that anyone can appoint apostles. ( my view ) -------------------------------------------------------

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

Tts 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

Tts 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

Tts 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

Tts 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Tts 1:10 ¶ For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

Tts 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

Tts 1:12 One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

Tts 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Tts 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. ------------------------------------------------------ The elders ( the aged or mature men ) were appointed to the office of Bishop and deacons ( my view ) -----------------------------------------------------

This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 1Ti 3:8 ¶ Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being [found] blameless. 1Ti 3:11 Even so [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Question: When was anyone ever appointed to the position of an elder?

Question: Based on acts ch 1 verses 22 through 26 Why would the apostles be replaced by anyone not witnessing Christ,s resurrection?

[ravenwolf]

Just what Christ loves, Christians arguing about Scripture.

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We are not arguing, we are just learning, Jesus said ( know the truth and the truth shall set you free ) How are you going to know the truth if every one has a different understanding of the scriptures? we are not talking about salvation here we are talking about being free,

In my way of looking at it, it would simply mean free from relgious traditions or maybe just free from false doctrine,

Do you realize that just a few hunderd years ago very few people even had a Bible to read, and that they had to take some one else,s word for it ? but even today so many people will not read the Bible, they would rather take what some one else says even though it might be false, would you trust your freedom, much less your salvation to just anybody? Just because they happen to have a degree in something or other.

[irishtenor]

If this were the case, that Apostolic succession was implied and proper, where are the OTHER 11 apostles (assuming that the Pope is the successor to Peter). Where is the successor to John, Thomas, Mathias, etc?

Peter’s actions occurred before the Holy Spirit came upon him and the rest. They were acting without the knowledge and wisdom of God in them. They were without approval.

God had a successor to Judas, in the form of Paul.

[ravenwolf]

Probably on a different thought pattern, but I do not assume
that the pope has any thing to do with the apostal peter.

I also think that peter and the other apostals knew a little more about what they were doing than we do so I will assume they chose the apostal to replace Judas as the Bible says and there were 12 apostals before paul,

Good to here views from others.

[ravenwolf]

I agree,
paul did not wittness Christs resurection.

1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

According to verse 21 there is no way Paul could have replaced one of the 12.