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To: Dutchboy88
Dutchboy,

Thank you for admitting that the term "pray" has different meanings. A lot of people won't even get that far. I'll address the rest of your post point-by-point:

But, when you speak to a dead human to request them to act into the living history of man, you are attributing to them the characteristics of God

All we ask Saints is to pray for us - are we commanded to pray for each other? Further, we know that the prayer of the righteous is especially powerful. Who is more righteous than those who are with God? If a Catholic posts: "Blessed Mother, please bring all peoples to your Son, Amen" the request she pray to God for that objective is implicit in that entreatment (prayer).

You are praying to them because there is no means of communicating with the dead that we mortals are instructed to use. You won’t find this in the Scriptures.

I disagree. First, we must establish where the "dead" are. Assuming you do not believe in the "soul sleep," then where do those faithful who leave this realm go? They head to Heaven (ignoring other concepts for a moment). Okay, so then if they are still "alive in Christ," we cannot rightfully call them dead, can we? If they are in Heaven, we must now examine whether those in Heaven can hear us. If you believe the angels are in Heaven, then either they have some aspect of God's omnipotence or Heaven can hear us. The Psalmist commands angels constantly. Since angels are not God, it seems unlikely they are omnipotent. Thus Heaven must hear us.

Therefore, if the departed Faithful are alive in Christ and are in Heaven, and if the prayer of the righteous is especially powerful, why would you know ask the especially righteous in Heaven to entreat God on your behalf?

12 posted on 09/26/2008 7:08:55 AM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
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To: thefrankbaum
If you believe the angels are in Heaven, then either they have some aspect of God's omnipotence or Heaven can hear us

There are angels on earth as well...There is nothing in the scriptures that suggest angels in heaven can hear us...

All we ask Saints is to pray for us - are we commanded to pray for each other? Further, we know that the prayer of the righteous is especially powerful. Who is more righteous than those who are with God? If a Catholic posts: "Blessed Mother, please bring all peoples to your Son, Amen" the request she pray to God for that objective is implicit in that entreatment (prayer).

This is the argument you guys always use when accused of praying to Mary...

But what's funny is that some of the Catholics (on FR) deny praying to Mary while others (you) admit to praying to Mary and add justification...

I don't have a problem with you guys asking Mary or Heinrich Himmler (a Catholic) to pray for you...

What I and a few others object to is you guys kneeling to statues of Mary and asking her to send you some of God's grace...Or asking a 'Saint' to sell your house for you or to keep you safe on the highway...

AS we all know, there is a large element in your religion who are pushing to make Mary the 4th part of the Trinity...I'd say you guys are just a step away from it...

Therefore, if the departed Faithful are alive in Christ and are in Heaven, and if the prayer of the righteous is especially powerful, why would you know ask the especially righteous in Heaven to entreat God on your behalf?

There is no one in heaven who is more righteous than a born-again Christian on earth...

13 posted on 09/26/2008 9:05:17 AM PDT by Iscool (If Obama becomes the President, it will be an Obama-nation)
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To: thefrankbaum

You raise a few good points. In particular, the prayer of the righteous...

And, no, I am not referring to “soul sleep” but rather those departed, whose souls are with Christ, awaiting the resurrection of the bodies. I think we are fairly close agreement about the state of a believer that leaves this earth. Except, of course, to that matter of purgatory. Tell me a little about your view of that with respect to those that have died in Christ (that is, real believers).

Let me ponder that matter about the David (or the other Psalmists) speaking to the angels. That is interesting.


15 posted on 09/26/2008 4:54:45 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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