Posted on 11/24/2008 7:30:09 PM PST by topcat54
The great problem here is, of course, that no Reformed Theologian I know espouses this boogey-man label “replacement theology” that has been placed upon them. No one really believes that the Church has so replaced Israel that modern Jews are cast aside by God as unwanted, unwelcome, and unsalvable. Just the opposite, the Reformed tradition has always stressed that Jews can come to faith just like anyone else can come to faith. Many have even taught that, on top of this open-door policy for Jews, there will be a mass-conversion of Jews sometime in the future (see the commentaries of Haldane and Murray on Romans 11, to name a couple). Moreover, the Westminster Larger Catechism teaches, under the heading “Thy Kingdom Come,” that we are meant to pray “that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fullness of the gentiles brought in; . . .” (WLC, Answer 191). As Reformed believers we are instructed to pray that the Jews would come to Christ! And, by the way, this was written in 1648, a direct product of the Reformation. That this pro-Jewish view of God’s plan has been around for 360 years now should signal to the dispensationalists that we do not, in fact, believe in replacement. Call it Fulfillment, Fullness, Expansion, even Grafting Theology-a dozen other labels will do-but replacement will not do, thank you.
(Excerpt) Read more at americanvision.org ...
s this a new euphemism for Preterist Replacement theology ?blah blah blah
Inflammatory rhetoric is an example of the "hesed" you're urging on us?
He wrote a 900 page treatise, creating out of whole cloth the the belief that all prophesy ended in 70CE.
Dispensationalism has an equally shaky historical foundation.
The Catholic Church also gave us the creeds that we believe today. Do you want to throw them away too?
Good question. He just might.
It's called context, my friend. See verse 8.
The rants are getting more irrational. The response to direct questions has stopped. It’s apparent that those who espouse the new theology of messianism, like their dispensational cousins, have no good answers to the tough questions. And so they are reduced to name-calling and guilt by association.
We should not be surprised. The truth is far from the children of Darby and Scofield. The historic Reformed faith has been vindicated on more than one occasion. It is truth found in the Lord Jesus Christ that will appeal to the elect of God from every nation, both Jew and gentile, the one new man is being built up without regard to race or ethnicity. The children of Abraham can rejoice together because the barrier has been torn down once for all.
And what would that be in terms of standing and responsibility before God?
I realize you are on a roll with your rants, but are you ever going to tell us what tribe of Israel you are from to confirm your ethnicity?
In terms of answering who Jews think the Jews are, I’d think the rabbinic standards were the gold standard.
It must be embarrassing to have been snookeredshalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
by a counter reformation Jesuit's scam.
The response to direct questions has stopped.
So I've noticed.
But you know from Paul, it does not matter. I have not had my DNA tested.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
Except for the Karaites
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
Are you saying the rabbinic standard is superior to the biblical standard?
Who the Jews think they Jews are was not the original question. The original question was the meaning of the term "Israel " in the context of this discussion. I.e., you said, "I think the issue is whether God still has a special place and role for Israel." Whose definition of "Israel" is the correct one? You seem to be saying that modern rabbis get to define "Israel".
More rabbinical fog. Yes !
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
Is that you way of admitting that you are not really Jewish.
But you know from Paul, it does not matter.
I know that, but with all your blathering about the boogeyman of "replacement theology" and such and you claims of a superior system following the old covenant Jewish ceremonials, all the funky transliterations, G-ds and L-rds, etc, I thought you had some legitimate stake in the matter.
You began this line of questioning in #26. I’m saying that the bible has not been added to since about 90AD or so. Therefore, any question of Jewish ancestry pretty much must be left to the rabbis. The final geneologies given, I believe, were in the gospels, all 1st century documents.
The bible doesn’t do a particularly good job of answering “specifically” who is a genetic Jew in the 21st century.
You might care to rebrief yourself concerning the Abrahamic Covenant.
Can you expand on your comment?
Don't you feel the fool by being snookered
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
by a Counter-Reformation Jesuit and his scam.
The context of Hebrews 8 and the entire book of Hebrews is about the Levitical priesthood not the Torah itself. Paul wrote Hebrews encourage those who were worried about the possibility that the Temple would fall away and the Levitical priesthood with it.
Paul was telling his audience not to worry about the Levitical priesthood. Yeshua is the ultimate High Priest and we should look to His Priestly ministry for reconciliation with God.
There’s nothing in the Book of Hebrews which negates the Torah rules on morality, sanctification, etc.
All this reminds me of Peter’s warning about those who twist Paul’s words to antinomianism and lawlessness (torahlessness).
2 Peter 3:14-18 say, “Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.”
Well that pretty much is the point, isn't it? Up until the time of Christ and the apostles, the Jews were very careful about the maintenance of records, measuring one's Jewishness through the father, as we see in places like Genesis 5 or Matthew 1. Temple records were kept and it was pretty easy to verify claims. Jesus’ lineage could be traced to Adam, nevermind Abraham.
But since the destruction of the temple in AD70 the possibility of following the old covenant norms for judging lineage have passed away. In its place is the invention of the rabbis.
But you want to answer the question of what "Israel" means when it is used in the Bible with respect to the future by appealing to the modern rabbis. This strikes me as an unsatisfactory position for what seems to me to be rather obvious reasons.
Lineage was only important until Christ appeared. That is because it was only necessary to estanlish His lienage wrt David and Abraham. Jesus is the true Israel, the fulfillment of all the old covenant types. So the matter of lineage today really doesn’t matter. All one needs to do is to be found "in Christ" and the blessing of the promises accrue to him. You just need to establish your spiritual relationship. That is all that matters. Today, the true children of Abraham are those who by faith have come to Christ.
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