The Messianic Jew & Charismatic Dispensationalism

One issue is consistency. You excluded non-biblical sources from consideration if I was making an assertion but turned around and tried to use them when you made an assertion. Choose one rule or the other and be consistent.

Actually, I didn't exclude anything. I pointed out that God did not declare genocide against the Jews in the Bible. You mentioned Josephus. I said that Josephus is not the Bible. It's that simple.

This is one of the possible fulfillments of For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

As long as we are quoting history, there are accounts of false Christs preceding the Roman invasion in AD70.

No, they cannot.

Yes, they can.

Luke wrote that before all these events described in the preceding verses (Luke 21:8-11 at least),there would be a persecution. Matthew (and Mark) have the timeline directly backwards.

This is a distinction without a difference. The point is that all these things happened in the context of believers during the 1st century. The fact that one apostles mentions the events in a different is immaterial. There is no chronological requirement of the events in either account. One said A and B and the other said B and A. Neither said A must precede B, or vice versa.

One problem with that point of view is that Luke has the timeline opposite of Matthew/Mark.

Actually, no, he does not.

Actually, I didn't exclude anything. I pointed out that God did not declare genocide against the Jews in the Bible. You mentioned Josephus. I said that Josephus is not the Bible. It's that simple.

I don't think it is that simple at all. I cannot ignore the history. I see preterism, the words of John Crysostom, and the genocide practices against the Jews as intertwined. It flowed from their interpretations of the Bible.

As long as we are quoting history, there are accounts of false Christs preceding the Roman invasion in AD70.

And where would that be ? No, let me guess Josephus ...
It is possible that what has come down as Josephus' work was altered by its historical guardians to plant evidence to support their interpretation of what occurred. There is simply no scriptural evidence to support preterism.

This is a distinction without a difference. The point is that all these things happened in the context of believers during the 1st century. The fact that one apostles mentions the events in a different is immaterial. There is no chronological requirement of the events in either account. One said A and B and the other said B and A. Neither said A must precede B, or vice versa.

One said A occurs and then B. Another wrote B occurs before A. Luke has the timeline of the events of opposite order to Matthew/Mark.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
In your patience possess ye your souls.

The publishing of the gospel is a prerequisite in Matthew/Mark, but is not mentioned in Luke.
False prophets are mentioned in Matthew, but neither in Mark nor Luke.
Mark and Luke speak about the testimony some shall give, but Matthew is silent.
Mark and Luke speak about them being hated by all nations (Gentiles) for Jesus' name's sake. Now that has happened to the Jews.
Matthew and Mark share the same view, that the one who endures to the end shall be saved, but Luke omits it.
Only Matthew speaks about iniquity abounding and love waxing cold.
Luke alone mentions some being put to death, but not a hair of their head perishing, and possessing their souls through patience.
Only Matthew has and then the end shall come

There is more discontinuity in the accounts now.

How can that be unless you are inventing it on the fly?

As I said, I don't see the discontinuity you claim to see. They are the same pericope recorded by three different individuals. All the "differences" can be accounted for by the different authors and audiences.

One said A occurs and then B. Another wrote B occurs before A.

Sorry. They do not.

One said A occurs and then B. Another wrote B occurs before A. Sorry. They do not.

Let A = Matt 24:4,5; Mark 13:5,6; Luke 21:8
Let B = Matt 24:6; Mark 13:7; Luke 21:9
Let C = Matt 24:7,8; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:10,11
Let D = Matt 24:9a; Mark 13:9,11; Luke 21:12,13,14,15
Let E = Matt 24:9b, 10, Mark 13:12,13; Luke 21:16-17

Matthew lists A, B, and C in order and then has these are the beginnings of sorrows (these come first) followed by then and and then separating A, B, C from D and E.
Mark lists A, B, and C in order and also then has these are the beginnings of sorrows (these come first) followed by but and but separating A, B, C from D and E. This is a different conjunction but also seems congruent with an order and thus does not contradict Matthew so I hold these in harmony, notwithstanding that G is out of place and inserted in the middle of D.
Luke, on the other hand, is not congruent. Luke lists A, B, and C in order and then has But before all these (these now come after what follows in Luke's version) followed by and separating A, B, C from D and E. This is a different order. It is not the same. Matthew/Mark both have A, B, C as the beginnings of sorrows followed by D and E. Luke has D, E, and who knows what else followed by A, B, and C. Luke has the persecution preceding someone coming in Jesus' name, wars and rumors of wars, nations rising against nation, etc. Now it is true that only Luke has the word first inserted in the common phrase found in all the B versions, for these things must first come to pass. Perhaps you might try to explain the discrepancy as a textural error in the Textus Receptus, or you may say that Luke recorded what he heard and someone relayed the account differently than Matthew and Mark.
In either case of B's version, Luke explicity separated D from C with an order of D, C while Matthew/Mark definitely have C preceding D. This is problematic for your preterist view from a consistency point. Of course you may also say it doesn't matter again, as you previously wrote that we should not take Jesus' words literally, which is how you try to reconcile his prophecies not having literal historical fulfillment.
Now back to the matter of genocide. Your interpretation of these words belonging to 70AD (For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. ) has almost all the Jewish people living in the land at that time being killed as a fulfillment of prophecy. So it is this preterist viewpoint that ties God and/or Jesus to the attempted genocide of the Jews in 70AD as divine retribution. In your view, they all would have been killed but for it being shortened. Afterward, your viewpoint strips the children of Israel of any further national relationship, relevance, or future. You essentially commit theological genocide against them, all the time offering praise and thanksgiving.
Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

Sorry, I'm just not seeing it.

           Matthew 24                                Mark 13                               Luke 21



 And Jesus went out, and departed       And as he went out of the temple,      And as some spake of the temple,

 from the temple: and his disciples     one of his disciples saith unto        how it was adorned with goodly

 came to him for to shew him the        him, Master, see what manner of        stones and gifts, he said, (5)

 buildings of the temple. (1)           stones and what buildings are

                                        here! (1)



 And Jesus said unto them, See ye       And Jesus answering said unto him,     As for these things which ye

 not all these things? verily I say     Seest thou these great buildings?      behold, the days will come, in the

 unto you, There shall not be left      there shall not be left one stone      which there shall not be left one

 here one stone upon another, that      upon another, that shall not be        stone upon another, that shall not

 shall not be thrown down. (2)          thrown down. (2)                       be thrown down. (6)



 And as he sat upon the mount of        And as he sat upon the mount of        And they asked him, saying, (7a)

 Olives, the disciples came unto        Olives over against the temple,

 him privately, saying, Tell us,        Peter and James and John and

 when shall these things be? and        Andrew asked him privately, (3)

 what shall be the sign of thy

 coming, and of the end of the          Tell us, when shall these things       Master, but when shall these

 age? (3)                               be? and what shall be the sign         things be? and what sign will

                                        when all these things shall be         there be when these things shall

                                        fulfilled? (4)                         come to pass? (7b)



 And Jesus answered and said unto       And Jesus answering them began to      And he said, Take heed that ye be

 them, Take heed that no man            say, Take heed lest any man            not deceived: (8a)

 deceive you. (4)                       deceive you: (5)



 For many shall come in my name,        For many shall come in my name,        for many shall come in my name,

 saying, I am Christ; and shall         saying, I am Christ; and shall         saying, I am Christ; and the time

 deceive many. (5)                      deceive many. (6)                      draweth near: go ye not therefore

                                                                               after them. (8b)



 And ye shall hear of wars and          And when ye shall hear of wars and     But when ye shall hear of wars and

 rumours of wars: see that ye be        rumours of wars, be ye not             commotions, be not terrified: for

 not troubled: for all these things     troubled: for such things must         these things must first come to

 must come to pass, but the end is      needs be; but the end shall not be     pass; but the end is not by and

 not yet. (6)                           yet. (7)                               by. (9)



 For nation shall rise against          For nation shall rise against          Then said he unto them, Nation

 nation, and kingdom against            nation, and kingdom against            shall rise against nation, and

 kingdom: and there shall be            kingdom: and there shall be            kingdom against kingdom: (10)

 famines, and pestilences, and          earthquakes in divers places, and

 earthquakes, in divers places. (7)     there shall be famines and             And great earthquakes shall be in

                                        troubles: these are the beginnings     divers places, and famines, and

 All these are the beginning of         of sorrows. (8)                        pestilences; and fearful sights

 sorrows. (8)                                                                  and great signs shall there be

                                                                               from heaven. (11)



 Then shall they deliver you up to      But take heed to yourselves: for       But before all these, they shall

 be afflicted, and shall kill you:      they shall deliver you up to           lay their hands on you, and

 and ye shall be hated of all           councils; and in the synagogues ye     persecute you, delivering you up

 nations for my name's sake. (9)        shall be beaten: and ye shall be       to the synagogues, and into

                                        brought before rulers and kings        prisons, being brought before

 And then shall many be offended,       for my sake, for a testimony           kings and rulers for my name's

 and shall betray one another, and      against them. (9)                      sake. (12)

 shall hate one another. (10)

                                        And ye shall be hated of all men       And ye shall be hated of all men

                                        for my name's sake: (13a)              for my name's sake. (17)



                                                                               But there shall not an hair of

                                                                               your head perish. (18)



 And many false prophets shall

 rise, and shall deceive many. (11)



 And because iniquity shall abound,

 the love of many shall wax cold.

 (12)



 But he that shall endure unto the      but he that shall endure unto the      In your patience possess ye your

 end, the same shall be saved. (13)     end, the same shall be saved.          souls. (19)

                                        (13b)



 And this gospel of the kingdom         And the gospel must first be

 shall be preached in all the world     published among all nations. (10)

 for a witness unto all nations;

 and then shall the end come. (14)



                                        But when they shall lead you, and

                                        deliver you up, take no thought

                                        beforehand what ye shall speak,

                                        neither do ye premeditate: but

                                        whatsoever shall be given you in

                                        that hour, that speak ye: for it

                                        is not ye that speak, but the Holy

                                        Ghost. (11)



                                        Now the brother shall betray the

                                        brother to death, and the father

                                        the son; and children shall rise

                                        up against their parents, and

                                        shall cause them to be put to

                                        death. (12)



 When ye therefore shall see the        But when ye shall see the              And when ye shall see Jerusalem

 abomination of desolation, spoken      abomination of desolation, spoken      compassed with armies, then know

 of by Daniel the prophet, stand in     of by Daniel the prophet, standing     that the desolation thereof is

 the holy place, (whoso readeth,        where it ought not, (let him that      nigh. (20)

 let him understand:) (15)              readeth understand,)



 Then let them which be in Judaea       then let them that be in Judaea        Then let them which are in Judaea

 flee into the mountains: (16)          flee to the mountains: (14)            flee to the mountains; (21a)





 Let him which is on the housetop       And let him that is on the             In that day, he which shall be

 not come down to take any thing        housetop not go down into the          upon the housetop, and his stuff

 out of his house: (17)                 house, neither enter therein, to       in the house, let him not come

                                        take any thing out of his house:       down to take it away: and he that

 Neither let him which is in the        (15)                                   is in the field, let him likewise

 field return back to take his                                                 not return back. (Luke 17:31)

 clothes. (18)                          And let him that is in the field

                                        not turn back again for to take up     and let them which are in the

                                        his garment. (16)                      midst of it depart out; and let

                                                                               not them that are in the countries

                                                                               enter thereinto. (21b)



                                                                               For these be the days of

                                                                               vengeance, that all things which

                                                                               are written may be fulfilled. (22)



 And woe unto them that are with        But woe to them that are with          But woe unto them that are with

 child, and to them that give suck      child, and to them that give suck      child, and to them that give suck,

 in those days! (19)                    in those days! (17)                    in those days! for there shall be

                                                                               great distress in the land, and

 But pray ye that your flight be        And pray ye that your flight be        wrath upon this people. (23)

 not in the winter, neither on the      not in the winter. (18)

 sabbath day: (20)



                                                                               And they shall fall by the edge of

                                                                               the sword, and shall be led away

                                                                               captive into all nations: and

                                                                               Jerusalem shall be trodden down of

                                                                               the Gentiles, until the times of

                                                                               the Gentiles be fulfilled. (24)



 For then shall be great                For in those days shall be

 tribulation, such as was not since     affliction, such as was not from

 the beginning of the world to this     the beginning of the creation

 time, no, nor ever shall be. (21)      which God created unto this time,

                                        neither shall be. (19)



 And except those days should be        And except that the Lord had

 shortened, there should no flesh       shortened those days, no flesh

 be saved: but for the elect's sake     should be saved: but for the

 those days shall be shortened.         elect's sake, whom he hath chosen,

 (22)                                   he hath shortened the days. (20)



 Then if any man shall say unto         And then if any man shall say to       And they shall say to you, See

 you, Lo, here is Christ, or there;     you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo,       here; or, see there: go not after

 believe it not. (23)                   he is there; believe him not: (21)     them, nor follow them. (Luke

                                                                               17:23)



 For there shall arise false            For false Christs and false

 Christs, and false prophets, and       prophets shall rise, and shall

 shall shew great signs and             shew signs and wonders, to seduce,

 wonders; insomuch that, if it were     if it were possible, even the

 possible, they shall deceive the       elect. (22)

 very elect. (24)



 Behold, I have told you before.        But take ye heed: behold, I have

 (25)                                   foretold you all things. (23)



 Wherefore if they shall say unto

 you, Behold, he is in the desert;

 go not forth: behold, he is in the

 secret chambers; believe it not.

 (26)



 For as the lightning cometh out of                                            For as the lightning, that

 the east, and shineth even unto                                               lighteneth out of the one part

 the west; so shall also the coming                                            under heaven, shineth unto the

 of the Son of man be. (27)                                                    other part under heaven; so shall

                                                                               also the Son of man be in his day.

                                                                               (Luke 17:24)



 For wheresoever the carcase is,                                               And they answered and said unto

 there will the eagles be gathered                                             him, Where, Lord? And he said unto

 together. (28)                                                                them, Wheresoever the body is,

                                                                               thither will the eagles be

                                                                               gathered together. (Luke 17:37)



 Immediately after the tribulation      But in those days, after that          And there shall be signs in the

 of those days shall the sun be         tribulation, the sun shall be          sun, and in the moon, and in the

 darkened, and the moon shall not       darkened, and the moon shall not       stars; and upon the earth distress

 give her light, and the stars          give her light, (24)                   of nations, with perplexity; the

 shall fall from heaven, and the                                               sea and the waves roaring; (25)

 powers of the heavens shall be         And the stars of heaven shall

 shaken: (29)                           fall, and the powers that are in

                                        heaven shall be shaken. (25)



                                                                               Men's hearts failing them for

                                                                               fear, and for looking after those

                                                                               things which are coming on the

                                                                               earth: for the powers of heaven

                                                                               shall be shaken. (26)



 And then shall appear the sign of      And then shall they see the Son of     And then shall they see the Son of

 the Son of man in heaven: and then     man coming in the clouds with          man coming in a cloud with power

 shall all the tribes of the earth      great power and glory. (26)            and great glory. (27)

 mourn, and they shall see the Son

 of man coming in the clouds of

 heaven with power and great glory.

 (30)



                                                                               And when these things begin to

                                                                               come to pass, then look up, and

                                                                               lift up your heads; for your

                                                                               redemption draweth nigh. (28)



 And he shall send his angels with      And then shall he send his angels,

 a great sound of a trumpet, and        and shall gather together his

 they shall gather together his         elect from the four winds, from

 elect from the four winds, from        the uttermost part of the earth to

 one end of heaven to the other.        the uttermost part of heaven. (27)

 (31)



 Now learn a parable of the fig         Now learn a parable of the fig         And he spake to them a parable;

 tree; When his branch is yet           tree; When her branch is yet           Behold the fig tree, and all the

 tender, and putteth forth leaves,      tender, and putteth forth leaves,      trees; (29)

 ye know that summer is nigh: (32)      ye know that summer is near: (28)

                                                                               When they now shoot forth, ye see

                                                                               and know of your own selves that

                                                                               summer is now nigh at hand. (30)



 So likewise ye, when ye shall see      So ye in like manner, when ye          So likewise ye, when ye see these

 all these things, know that it is      shall see these things come to         things come to pass, know ye that

 near, even at the doors. (33)          pass, know that it is nigh, even       the kingdom of God is nigh at

                                        at the doors. (29)                     hand. (31)



 Verily I say unto you, This            Verily I say unto you, that this       Verily I say unto you, This

 generation shall not pass, till        generation shall not pass, till        generation shall not pass away,

 all these things be fulfilled.         all these things be done. (30)         till all be fulfilled. (32)

 (34)



 Heaven and earth shall pass away,      Heaven and earth shall pass away:      Heaven and earth shall pass away:

 but my words shall not pass away.      but my words shall not pass away.      but my words shall not pass away.

 (35)                                   (31)                                   (33)



 But of that day and hour knoweth       But of that day and that hour

 no man, no, not the angels of          knoweth no man, no, not the angels

 heaven, but my Father only. (36)       which are in heaven, neither the

                                        Son, but the Father. (32)



 But as the days of Noah were, so                                              And as it was in the days of Noah,

 shall also the coming of the Son                                              so shall it be also in the days of

 of man be. (37)                                                               the Son of man. (Luke 17:26)



 For as in the days that were                                                  They did eat, they drank, they

 before the flood they were eating                                             married wives, they were given in

 and drinking, marrying and giving                                             marriage, until the day that Noah

 in marriage, until the day that                                               entered into the ark, and the

 Noah entered into the ark, (38)                                               flood came, and destroyed them

                                                                               all. (Luke 17:27)



 And knew not until the flood came,                                            Even thus shall it be in the day

 and took them all away; so shall                                              when the Son of man is revealed.

 also the coming of the Son of man                                             (Luke 17:30)

 be. (39)



 Then shall two be in the field;                                               Two men shall be in the field; the

 the one shall be taken, and the                                               one shall be taken, and the other

 other left. (40)                                                              left. (Luke 17:36)



                                                                               I tell you, in that night there

                                                                               shall be two men in one bed; the

                                                                               one shall be taken, and the other

                                                                               shall be left. (Luke 17:34)



 Two women shall be grinding at the                                            Two women shall be grinding

 mill; the one shall be taken, and                                             together; the one shall be taken,

 the other left. (41)                                                          and the other left. (Luke 17:35)



 Watch therefore: for ye know not       Take ye heed, watch and pray: for

 what hour your Lord doth come.         ye know not when the time is. (33)

 (42)



 But know this, that if the goodman     For the Son of Man is as a man         And take heed to yourselves, lest

 of the house had known in what         taking a far journey, who left his     at any time your hearts be

 watch the thief would come, he         house, and gave authority to his       overcharged with surfeiting, and

 would have watched, and would not      servants, and to every man his         drunkenness, and cares of this

 have suffered his house to be          work, and commanded the porter to      life, and so that day come upon

 broken up. (43)                        watch. (34)                            you unawares. (34)



 Therefore be ye also ready: for in     Watch ye therefore: for ye know        For as a snare shall it come on

 such an hour as ye think not the       not when the master of the house       all them that dwell on the face of

 Son of man cometh. (44)                cometh, at even, or at midnight,       the whole earth. (35)

                                        or at the cockcrowing, or in the

 Who then is a faithful and wise        morning: (35)                          Watch ye therefore, and pray

 servant, whom his lord hath made                                              always, that ye may be accounted

 ruler over his household, to give      Lest coming suddenly he find you       worthy to escape all these things

 them meat in due season? (45)          sleeping. (36)                         that shall come to pass, and to

                                                                               stand before the Son of man. (36)

 Blessed is that servant, whom his      And what I say unto you I say unto

 lord when he cometh shall find so      all, Watch. (37)

 doing. (46)



 Verily I say unto you, That he

 shall make him ruler over all his

 goods. (47)



 But and if that evil servant shall

 say in his heart, My lord delayeth

 his coming; (48)



 And shall begin to smite his

 fellowservants, and to eat and

 drink with the drunken; (49)



 The lord of that servant shall

 come in a day when he looketh not

 for him, and in an hour that he is

 not aware of, (50)



 And shall cut him asunder, and

 appoint him his portion with the

 hypocrites: there shall be weeping

 and gnashing of teeth. (51)

Why herein is a marvelous thing. You wrote it, But before all these, but you are just not seeing it.

Why herein is a marvelous thing. You wrote it, But before all these, but you are just not seeing it.

What I'm not seeing is any urgency of order that changes the meaning of the text in any significant fashion. These minor points can all be explained by different authors and audiences. Nothing major. This is futurist gnat-straining, that's all.

If this is the best you can do, have fun with it.

What I'm not seeing is any urgency of order that changes the meaning of the text in any significant fashion. These minor points can all be explained by different authors and audiences. Nothing major. This is futurist gnat-straining, that's all. If this is the best you can do, have fun with it.

What I'm not seeing is any intellectual honesty. I'm not surprised. This is what I expected from a theology that despises the nation of Israel. I've read this book before.

What I'm not seeing is any intellectual honesty.

I see the problem. I'm looking at the text and you are looking at me.