A Noachide's response to chr*stianity (Vanity)

Please forgive the vanity, as well as an anti-chr*stian apologetic at this time of year. My purpose is not to hurt or antagonize but to answer this thread. May G-d help me to do so.

Most arguments between Jews and chr*stians don't really satisfy anyone on either side because they focus on details--the eternity of the Torah, the identity of Messiah, the prophecies--and ignore the big picture of which these things are but details. Be`ezrat HaShem I will call upon my own prior beliefs as a Fundamentalist Protestant to lay out this "big picture" so that, whether the reader agrees or disagrees, he will understand.

Fundamentalist Protestants have a strong antinomian streak as a heritage of the Reformation, when Paul's polemics against the Torah were applied by the Reformers to Catholic rituals, laws, observances, and traditions. Thus the Fundamentalist Protestant (hereinafter FP) pitch to Jews invariably begins by pointing out that everyone is a sinner; that no one has ever kept the Torah perfectly. Therefore, since no one is without sin, no one can be "saved." All must be damned, because G-d, being holy, cannot abide imperfection. The only alternative (other than 100% sinlessness) is for G-d to incarnate Himself (chas vechalilah!) and vicariously damn Himself in the place of every sinner. In fact (according to this view) the whole point of the Torah was to illustrate that, since no one can live a 100% sinless life, all human obedience to G-d is futile, since it's all-or-nothing. Therefore the entire Torah becomes an illustration of the need for the vicarious damnation of this divine scapegoat--a "prophecy" or "type" of this "messiah." Thus, all the FP "witness" has to do is to point out to the one being witnessed to that he isn't perfect. Voila! This "proves" the truth of antinomian "faith only" chr*stianity.

Now while apologists argue back and forth about whether J*sus fulfilled the messianic prophecies or whether the cessation of the offerings means that their validity has ceased they are, as I said, missing the big picture, which is that this entire worldview is incorrect from the Torah point of view. Once again, be`ezrat HaShem I will try to explain.

Perhaps the best place to begin is to point out that nowhere in the TaNa"KH (the Hebrew Bible or "old testament") is their a word about "soul salvation" in the chr*stian sense. No one goes door to door passing out tracts. In fact, "salvation" in the chr*stian sense is never mentioned. The only "salvation" in the TaNa"KH is rescue from a dangerous situation of some kind. It is this very literal concept of rescue that chr*stianity has de-literalized, spiritualized, and allegorized into "the salvation of the soul."

In FP thought G-d, being holy and perfect, cannot create anything less holy or perfect than Himself, else He would be implicated in imperfection, which is unthinkable. Sin and imperfection come from an outside force (Satan). G-d, being holy and righteous, cannot bear the existence of sin. His only option in dealing with the slightest sin is eternal damnation--else He would topple from His throne of Holiness. So each individual must either live an entire life of absolute sinlessness or else face this inevitable fate--unless G-d incarnates Himself as a divine scapegoat to take this punishment Himself on behalf of every single individual. This is what Fundamentalist Protestant chr*stianity is all about. This is also why FP's think that merely pointing out that no one is sinless "proves" that their religion is right and all others are insults to the Holiness of G-d.

The problem is that G-d's holiness and omnipotence do not mean that in creation He reproduces Himself. G-d is One and the idea of Him reproducing Himself is a non-sequitur, as is the notion that "everything is holy" (since the very definition of "holy" is "other"). By the very nature of things all things that are not G-d are imperfect. In another post I pointed out that there is a Jewish tradition that the first sin was not committed by man, but by the very ground before man had ever been created, when G-d commanded it to bring forth "trees of fruit bearing fruit" and in instead brought forth only "trees bearing fruit" (another tradition says that the sun and moon were created the same size but the moon was reduced as a punishment for its envy).

Also, it is an error to attribute man's evil inclination to the interference of Satan. The Torah alludes to the fact that G-d Himself created man's evil inclination when it uses two yods in the word vayiytzer ("and he formed") in Genesis 2:7. The two yods allude to man's two yetzarim (inclinations), good and evil--both created and given to him by G-d. In fact, Satan is not in rebellion against G-d or a "fallen angel" at all. Indeed, by tempting us to sin and accusing us before G-d he is only doing his job.

Let none of this lead the reader to misunderstand that the ravages wreaked by the First Sin on either mankind or the universe itself is being downplayed. In fact, it is Judaism--the Torah--that first taught us of the First Sin and preserves its memory down to this day. What is being said, however, is that G-d willed to create a universe that, even before the Sin, was not (and by the very nature of things could not have been) as perfect as He--that to create was to bring imperfection into existence--and by creating creatures with free will to whom a Law was given, G-d Himself made sin possible. And this was His Will.

Ultimately, we do not know why G-d created the universe (since His counsels are His Own). But we have been given partial answers. One of these is that G-d created the universe for the Torah. In Jewish understanding Torah is what chr*stians call the "logos"--the blueprint or DNA of the Creation. In fact, it was created first (974 generations before Creation according to tradition) and the universe only after. Much as the mechanism of a keyhole is useless without the key that fits into it and makes it work, so the Torah serves as the "key" to the universe. Another answer we have been given is that G-d created this world so it could be filled with and transformed by G-dliness. G-d could have stopped with the creation of the higher, spiritual worlds, but He did not. He chose to create the physical world--the lowest of all the worlds--so that it could be elevated by G-dliness and sanctity. This, more than sanctity in the higher spritual worlds, shows forth G-d's greatness. And how was this to be accomplished? Keyhole, meet key--by the observance of the Torah. In this the Jewish nation retains the fulness of the Adamic mission by observing the Torah in its fulness, which channels holiness from the higher worlds into this physical one. Non-Jews then spread this holiness throughout the world by observing the Seven Noachide Laws. G-d's mysterious ultimate purpose is tied to the sanctification of this lowest of worlds, not by sinless angels, but by men--creatures who struggle with their evil inclination all their lives and who fail more often than they succeed.

You will notice that I have said nothing whatsoever about the "salvation of the soul" for the simple reason that that is not what it's about. In fact, it is the opposite. The soul originates in Heaven, among the supernal realms. It descends down to this lowest of worlds and enters the human body in order to do its job. And its job is not to escape to Heaven but to bring Heaven down to earth. (Please do not confuse this, the true concept of tiqqun `olam, with G-dless imitations. This transformation is to be accomplished only by obeying G-d's instructions, not disobeying them or laying them aside, and the ultimate transformation will be supernatural and quite beyond the powers of any secularist philosophy.) In Judaism (and consequently Noachism) it is obedience to G-d's laws in this world that is what it is all about. Of course at death the soul reports to G-d for judgement and some sort of assessment is made, but this assessment will be based on our obedience to G-d's commandments (and our repentence for our sins). This is not an all-or-nothing judgement, for the factors of each individual soul, its trials and tribulations, are something only G-d could possibly judge or recompense. And we will not be cast aside because we were not 100% perfect in a way no created thing (not even the sun and the moon) can be (the First Sin was committed, after all, not by a fallen man but the perfect first-created man). As it is written in Pirqei-'Avot, Lo' `aleykha hamela'khah ligmor, 'aval lo' 'attah ben chorin lehibbatel mimennah ("it is not for you to finish the work, but neither are you free to withdraw from it"). It is also written that G-d will not ask us why we were not Moses, but why we were not ourselves. And that should be our focus: doing our task wherever we are, acknowledging our sins and failures, doing teshuvah (repentance) whenever needed, fearing G-d and obeying Him to the best of our ability, and most certainly not discarding His laws because we find them difficult.

I don't know how good a job I have done in this re-write (re-writes are always inferior to the original), but I hope I have succeeded in getting sincere chr*stians (especially antinomian FP's who do so much proselytizing and "witnessing") to see that in this worldview the notion that messiah has already come is ludicrous, and that such arguments as the current absence of blood sacrifices simply do not address the underlying issues at all. Neither do the often heard accusations "you must really have confidence in your sinlessness if you think you can make it to Heaven without J*sus" or "You're just trying to work your way to Heaven because you don't appreciate your own sinfulness and G-d's holiness" address the Jewish worldview, but only strawmen created to be taken down by those arguments. I don't think I'm "good enough." I'm not trying to "work my way to Heaven." I'm trying to do my job. And believe me, I have a greater appreciation than you ever could of the lousy job I'm doing at it!

The Torah foretells periods of destruction and exile when the sacrifices cannot be offered (these are always punishments for abandoning the Torah, not for "rejecting the messiah"). And when the real Mashiach comes it will not be subject to debate but a fact that no one on earth will be able to deny. So long as we're debating, then he hasn't come.

As I said, I fear this re-writing isn't as good as the one I was working on and then stupidly closed without saving. I certainly hope nothing I have written causes anyone to misunderstand. I have tried to explicate these things as I have come to understand them. I have certainly not intended to mislead anyone. And I certainly hope I haven't embarrassed anyone more learned in these matters than I. I hope Orthodox Jewish FReepers will feel free to correct me where I have made mistakes.

As I have said before (though apparently to no effect), a little humility wouldn't kill you.

Judaism does not need to prove itself. It was already here. It is chr*stianity that is the new religion and all burdens of proof lie on chr*stianity.

You may quote the Na"KH until the cows come home, but the fact is that the Torah is absolute. No Prophet ever has had or ever will have the authority to "fulfill" it as you understand it. When the prophecies have been fulfilled the Na"KH will have fulfilled its purpose and will no longer be read publicly as Scripture--only the Torah will remain. The Torah is eternal. It rules over everything, including the Prophets.

There was no such thing as a "Bible chr*stian" until at the earliest the fifteenth century. For the first fourteen hundred years chr*stians "worked their way in" just like everyone else. The only thing different was the rituals.

The Holy One Blessed Be He, Torah, and Israel are One.

Are you sure you were ever Jewish? Some people misrepresent themselves here.

Posts 35 and 40, contains my final answers for the claims made by “Zionist Conspirator” aka ZC.

You will notice that throughout the responses I prepared, because ZC rejected “Christian” sources like the New Testament and Church History, I answered him ...

1) With the Torah (Pentateuch)
2) With the Old Testament
3) With other Jewish sources like Talmud, and ancient Rabbis

In other words, I answered him on his own turf.

Being of Jewish blood, and having a Jewish background, I have endured a lot of grief from my Jewish family for my faith in Jesus Christ. But ultimately they love me, and forced me through their attacks to dig up Hebraic answers grounded in the Jewish texts themselves. These days, they just act like family, and avoid giving me grief for my faith, knowing that I know how to answer them.

This has both strengthened my faith, and made me realize how defendable the Christian faith is, even if one limits themselves to only Jewish sources.

I hope you feel what ZC and I have written is worthy of bookmarking for later reference, should the matter of Christianity’s legitimacy surface from a Torah/Old Testament/Talmud perspective.

Have a great day gentlemen!

As I have explained before, the Torah does not authorize or provide for any new religion. It even claims to be "forever," many of the commandments having that attached to them (not "until the messiah comes"). No matter how you may project chr*stianity into the Hebrew Bible, that is all you are doing--projecting. This is my final answer to ROTB.

The purpose of this thread was to defend Fundamentalist Protestants from the ignorant charge of "hatred" which so many Jews accuse them of. I do not understand why so many Fundamentalist Protestants, who were being defended, have chosen this thread to argue against Judaism. Another thread should have been created for that. Barreling onto a pro-FP thread and arguing against Judaism sort of undercuts the purpose of the thread, which was to explain FP theology, at least to the extent to show that FP's are not "bigots."

I love you folks, but some of you are awfully thick-headed. You don't even recognize a friend when you have one. And you folks need all the friends you can get!

1) You referenced my thread, from your thread, in your original post.
2) If anyone came “Barreling” into another thread to promote something first, it was you into mine.
3) You *pinged* me in post #2. I was *invited* to your thread, while you came “Barreling” into mine.
4) I hardly think you sought to “defend Fundamentalist Protestants” with statements like A, B, and C ...

A) “Now while apologists argue back and forth about whether J*sus fulfilled the messianic prophecies or whether the cessation of the offerings means that their validity has ceased they are, as I said, missing the big picture, which is that this entire worldview is incorrect from the Torah point of view.”

B) “I hope I have succeeded in getting sincere chr*stians (especially antinomian FP’s who do so much proselytizing and “witnessing”) to see that in this worldview the notion that messiah has already come is ludicrous”

C) “And when the real Mashiach comes it will not be subject to debate but a fact that no one on earth will be able to deny. So long as we’re debating, then he hasn’t come.”

5) “arguing against Judaism” is hardly what I did. I made the case against “Rabbinic Talmudism” and made the case for “Torah Apocalyptic Judaism” which is the Law given at Mount Sinai to Moses and written in it’s entirety according to Torah itself. That nothing that was given at Mt. Sinai which was not written is well covered in post 40.

Admittedly, the depth of your Judaic knowledge is enough to silence some mature Christians, and I wanted to show them how to refute such talk ... using Jewish sources.

Have a great day!

I have re-checked, and apparently I mistook this thread for the one one defending Fundamentalist Protestants from charges of bigotry. I apologize for the error, but this thread is an old one and the other was new and hot.

Chr*stianity is indefensible. The Torah doesn't provide for it, and the Torah is the supreme authority to which all Prophets must submit. No one is reigning over the world from David's throne in Jerusalem, nor has the Temple been rebuilt and the offerings reinstituted. This is what Mashiach will do, and it hasn't been done.

There are only two chr*stian responses to this: either all this was done two thousand years ago allegorically rather than literally, or else they will be fulfilled at the "second coming." In the former view J*sus' messiahship is merely allegorical, and in the latter he's going to be the messiah one day but he isn't yet.

My apologies again for confusing threads.

I accept your apology regarding your confusion.

>Chr*stianity is indefensible.

Your opportunity to claim this with credibility and finality was to take post #40, and to answer the claims I made systematically, one by one, as I did to your post #39. That you engage instead in handwaving (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handwaving) is your choice.

I’m not asking anything I have not done myself. I took your claims in post #39, and answered them one by one, systematically in my post #40.

Again, apology accepted for your confusion.

You will notice that I have said nothing whatsoever about the "salvation of the soul" for the simple reason that that is not what it's about. In fact, it is the opposite. The soul originates in Heaven, among the supernal realms. It descends down to this lowest of worlds and enters the human body in order to do its job. And its job is not to escape to Heaven but to bring Heaven down to earth

This is a very authentically Christian understanding of the nature of justification, except, for some reason, you think it contradicts the notion that some souls are thereby saved, and having done their job, attain heaven. I don't see a contradiction at all, although I do see a refutation of evangelicalism in your essay.

You are most certainly welcome.

Most definitely, the faith of Jesus Christ can be defended easily, given there is much truth to back up The Truth.

These days, I choose to walk in Love more and more, so that Christ may live through me.

Have a great day.

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