Posted on 12/25/2008 9:13:44 PM PST by restornu
In Joseph Smith's day some of the most prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Christendom. Thomas Jefferson said:
I [Jefferson] am a real Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the preachers . . of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said or did.
They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man of which Jesus, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. . . . It is the speculations of crazy theologians which have made a Babel out of religion (Saul K. Padover, Thomas Jefferson on Democracy, 1939, pp. 122-123).
Writing to S. Hales in 1818, Jefferson wrote: "The truth is that Calvinism has introduced into the Christian religion more new absurdities than its leaders had purged it of old ones" (Ibid., p. 219).
On Jefferson's monument in Washington, D.C., is inscribed: "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." If his complete quotation were on the monument it would bring out the fact that Jefferson was speaking against the dergy of his day (Ibid., p. 119).
Benjamin Franklin, replying to a letter from Ezra Styles, president of Yale, said shortly before his death:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left it to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes (Carl Van Doren, Benjamin Franklin, 1941, p. 777).
The first great work expressing the deistic feeling in America was Thomas Paine's Age of Reason, considered to have generated the greatest stir of any book of its day. It made clear that Paine was not an atheist as some claimed, but a deist because of the tyranny and bigotry he found in the existing churches (Thomas Paine, Age of Reason, 1793, p. 287).
Speaking of the period in America between 1670 and 1830, renowned theologian Paul Tillich has said, "First among the educated classes, then increasingly in the mass of industrial workers, religion lost its 'immediacy,' and it ceased to offer an unquestioned sense of direction and relevance to human living" (Roland N. Stromberg, Religious Liberalism, 1954, p. 1).
Carlyle has said of the Colonial Period: "An age fallen languid and destitute of faith and terrified of skepticism" (Ibid., p. ix).
Of this time Carl L. Becker has said, "What we have to realize is that in those years God was on trial" (Ibid., p. 1).
On another occasion, Thomas Jefferson said:
The impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, have established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the earth (Peter H. Odegard, Religion and Politics, 1960, p. 110).
It is also true that in Colonial America only about 5 percent of the population belonged to any church and that those who did come to America for religious reasons did not come here initially to seek freedom of religion except for themselves. This is certainly an indictment against religion in Joseph Smith's day.
Peter Odegard also maintains this position:
Nowhere in the old world at the beginning of American colonization was there anything like religious toleration. . . . It is sad but not surprising to recall that even the religious dissenters who found refuge in America were, with notable exceptions, no more disposed toward toleration than the oppressors of the old world Obid., p. 9).
Historian William Warren Sweet says, "The rise of an intense anticlericalism was another cause of opposition to the churches." Further he relates: "The United States began as a free and independent nation with organized religion at a low ebb" (William Warren Sweet, Religion in the Development of American Culture, 1952, p. 92.).
I usually watch two Devotionals a day, and often print out the talks.
That wasn’t a valid link, but it’s OK. Thanks!
Taken From the Talk: “Beware of Pride,” General Conference, April, 1989
http://living-prophet.info/LDS/063_Ezra_Taft_Benson.html
I like to watch http://www.byutv.org/streaming/ on the internet this way you can repeat some of them in their calendar time.
Click the Move NetWrok
I have BYU on the computer, so I hope I can catch all the stuff that’s pertinent.
But thanks for the links, anyway.
*HUG*
There is a interesting talk today click on Dec 27 12am http://www.byu.tv/
A Different Jesus? The Christ of the Restoration
Robert Millet
and also on Audio
http://www.byub.org/rscsymposium/asx/010800.asx
Well lets keep it simple.
Is there more than one God?
No.
Stick to the topic.
_____________________________________
“In Joseph Smith’s day prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Joseph Smith...”
However I must press on.
Next are Jesus and God completely separate entities?
Yes.
Christ couldn’t pray to himself.
Jesus is the Word made flesh. The Word is God. This is made clear in the Bible.
So is Jesus God, or a God, or is the Bible wrong?
Jesus is the Son of God.
You have already demonstrated previously that you are able to read the mind of Monkey Face...
***
Gee that malevolent spirit is still lurking
I believe Monkey you have just posted explaining your situation to another poster which I have also read.
Is it not true when folks are familar with the scriptures and sees the area the other person is talking about in scriptures (seeing one is having a laps of thought some call it senior moments, an in some cases it is not senior moments it is health issues) a child of God will inquire “oh do you mean this verse,” not play hardball with to the letter of the law!
Thanks, resty.
Some folks are rude by nature and some have to work at it. I try to ignore both categories, but I’m also not backing down from what I believe.
If I feel I’m being baited (which has happened often) I will end the discussion.
“Don’t cast your pearls before swine.” I read that somewhere! ;o]
When one is the Only begotten Son, Jesus in the flesh from God the Father that would mean they are born into the family of God.
In the Old Testament Jehovah aka Jesus Also said he is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob
Ex. 3: 6,
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Then Bible is wrong. Well that is a disappointment, I loved it so.
Now explain if there is only one God this whole becoming gods of your own worlds bit I keep hearing about...
I’m afraid you’re asking the wrong person to explain about “becoming Gods.” I’m not familiar enough with the doctrine, partly because I don’t comprehend things as easily as I once did, but also because I’m not knowledgeable enough to present it in such a way that it is understandable and logical.
I wouldn’t want to lead you astray. There are many others who can do a better job than I, in that area. It’s important that when it is presented, it is presented in the correct manner, by someone who can answer all your questions.
(Though I would love for it to be me!)
Interesting, but it seems an evangelical preacher named Patrick Henry, the "Firebrand of the Revolution," would beg to differ. Here is what Henry had to say,
"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."
The following year, 1776, he wrote this:
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here."
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 176: "Whosoever... does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist...," Brigham Young,
Journal of Discourses, Volume 7, page 289: "Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, ... that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith,.. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation-the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim-"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true"
So there you have it again...JS is/has compared himself equal to God.
Wow! (Did Jesus and the apostle Paul get your "Period" bulletin correcting them?)
Jesus: Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many." (Matthew 24:4-5)
Apostle Paul: For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted... (2 Cor. 11:4)
I have no clue where you got your ideas on “Mormonism,” but wherever it was, it is totally skewed. There is only one God.
Hmm...
Why didn't the LDS "apostle" McConkie...
...who had the outright audacity to title his LDS "prophet"-approved book, "Mormon Doctrine"...
...not the first version...but subsequent versions...
...get your bulletin about this before he wrote his book or revisions thereof????
How many (true) gods are worshiped according to their LDS apostle's "Mormon Doctrine" 1966 book? (Three according to the Mormon definition of Heavenly Father and Jesus and the Holy Ghost being three separate gods): "Three separate personages--the Father, Son and Holy Ghost--comprise the Godhead...To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship." (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 567-577, 1966 edition)
Oh, wait a minute. (I should have kept reading). McConkie, on p. 848, only emphasizes worshiping two gods: "The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship....No one can worship the Father without also worshiping the Son....It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 848).
You comments and questions are snide and sarcastic.
If you want the answers, I suggest you hunt for them.
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