In Joseph Smith's day prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Christendom. (excerpt)

[restornu]

In Joseph Smith's day some of the most prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Christendom. Thomas Jefferson said:

I [Jefferson] am a real Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the preachers . . of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said or did.

They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man of which Jesus, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. . . . It is the speculations of crazy theologians which have made a Babel out of religion (Saul K. Padover, Thomas Jefferson on Democracy, 1939, pp. 122-123).

Writing to S. Hales in 1818, Jefferson wrote: "The truth is that Calvinism has introduced into the Christian religion more new absurdities than its leaders had purged it of old ones" (Ibid., p. 219).

On Jefferson's monument in Washington, D.C., is inscribed: "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." If his complete quotation were on the monument it would bring out the fact that Jefferson was speaking against the dergy of his day (Ibid., p. 119).

Benjamin Franklin, replying to a letter from Ezra Styles, president of Yale, said shortly before his death:

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left it to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes (Carl Van Doren, Benjamin Franklin, 1941, p. 777).

The first great work expressing the deistic feeling in America was Thomas Paine's Age of Reason, considered to have generated the greatest stir of any book of its day. It made clear that Paine was not an atheist as some claimed, but a deist because of the tyranny and bigotry he found in the existing churches (Thomas Paine, Age of Reason, 1793, p. 287).

Speaking of the period in America between 1670 and 1830, renowned theologian Paul Tillich has said, "First among the educated classes, then increasingly in the mass of industrial workers, religion lost its 'immediacy,' and it ceased to offer an unquestioned sense of direction and relevance to human living" (Roland N. Stromberg, Religious Liberalism, 1954, p. 1).

Carlyle has said of the Colonial Period: "An age fallen languid and destitute of faith and terrified of skepticism" (Ibid., p. ix).

Of this time Carl L. Becker has said, "What we have to realize is that in those years God was on trial" (Ibid., p. 1).

On another occasion, Thomas Jefferson said:

The impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, have established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the earth (Peter H. Odegard, Religion and Politics, 1960, p. 110).

It is also true that in Colonial America only about 5 percent of the population belonged to any church and that those who did come to America for religious reasons did not come here initially to seek freedom of religion except for themselves. This is certainly an indictment against religion in Joseph Smith's day.

Peter Odegard also maintains this position:

Nowhere in the old world at the beginning of American colonization was there anything like religious toleration. . . . It is sad but not surprising to recall that even the religious dissenters who found refuge in America were, with notable exceptions, no more disposed toward toleration than the oppressors of the old world Obid., p. 9).

Historian William Warren Sweet says, "The rise of an intense anticlericalism was another cause of opposition to the churches." Further he relates: "The United States began as a free and independent nation with organized religion at a low ebb" (William Warren Sweet, Religion in the Development of American Culture, 1952, p. 92.).

[Zakeet]

Joseph Smith did not have a creed!

Creeds, No.

Screwball, blasphemous and heretical beliefs, Yes. In abundance!

Here's a list of some Joseph Smith's warped teachings:

1. That Jesus and Satan are brothers

2. That God had incestuous sexual relations with His daughter, Mary, impregnating her with Jesus

3. That Christian pastors are "dimwitted hirelings of Satan"

4. Of sacred scriptures based on pagan works such as prayers to Egyptian gods for dead spirits – which were supposedly translated using occult devices such as peep stones

5. That God is a polygamous celestial stud married to our Heavenly Mother, whose name is so sacred we are not to say it out loud

6. Of Kolob and of other worlds named Planet Oblish and Planet Enish-go-on-dosh ruled by a governing power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam

7. Of prominent display of Satanic symbols such as pentagrams, baphomets, earth stones, and saturn stones on his churches' religious buildings and literature

8. Of portraying Satan as the god of this world and having him teach church doctrine in the Mormon temple ceremony

9. Of the wearing a fig leaf apron in temple ceremonies to symbolize Satan’s power and priesthoods

10. Of offering prayers to the devil in the temple ceremony – Oh God, hear the words of my mouth – and of praising him in the sacred rites by chanting Hebrew words whose translation is Marvelous Lucifer

11. That husbands can resurrect their wives from the grave

12. Of having special grips and clasps in order to tell ghosts from angels and the devil

13. Of practicing baptism for the dead

14. Of wearing magic underwear to protect from physical harm – with symbols so sacred that they must be cut out and buried and the garment burned when it wears out

15. That the Ten Lost Tribes and the apostle John will be discovered living in cement houses in a tropical land adjacent to the North Pole separated by a high mountain range

16. That men about six feet tall, dressed like Quakers, will be discovered dwelling on the moon where they live for about 1,000 years

17. That science will prove the earth has knobs on each end

18. That he was commanded by God to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors – eventually devising an Inspired Revision completed in 1833 – which was rejected by his church who still uses the King James Version

19. That his followers are not saved by grace, but instead are burdened by a complex series of rules and regulations which determine their progression as gods of their own planets and the ultimate size and quality of their harem of goddess wives

20. That he was greater than Jesus

[restornu]

Isn’t it time you really should let the puff out of your feathers...:)

Merry Christmas!

[Monkey Face]

We choose our reactions. I choose to keep my mind on what the article was/is really about, and not get sidetracked into arguing with people about their beliefs as opposed to mine.

I learn a lot that way.

You want folks here to PROVE something to you (”...Feel free to show me...”) and none of us are required to do that. When you pay my bills, you can ask me to prove my point. Until then, you might find a debate team more to your liking.

[restornu]

The topic of the thread is prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of the stuff shirts in Christendom!:)

In other words the lack of religious tolerance

The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others

[PfluegerFishin]

All other religion was excluded including Catholic who were just as much Christians as they were.

this comment in itself reveals your motive -

The Nicene is present both in Protestantism and Catholicism

Creeds may say many wonderful things in them they also showed intolerance towards others who lived among them that honor the Lord according to the dictates of their own conscience.

I asked you where in the Nicene does that occur?

Please respond or cease this absurdity

[Zakeet]

The Church of Jesus Christ needs no creed but their is an Article of Faith which some think are creeds but it is very different from a creed. ... Articles of Faith is what one adheres too.

Ordinarily, I would disagree with Resty's statement that the LDS Articles of Faith are not a creed. But in the case of Mormonism, the Articles of Faith are something to be learned and ignored; certainly not adhered to. This takes them outside the definition.

To illustrate the point, below is a more truthful version of the Articles of Faith as practiced today by Latter Day Saints.

---

SLIGHTLY MORE ACCURATE ARTICLES OF FAITH
(With enhancements highlighted in red)

1. We believe in Joseph Smith. We also believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. We believe that these gods were once men, and that you too can become your own god, even though our Prophet, Seer and Revelator denied it on national TV.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, such as murdering or drinking tea, and not for Adam's transgression, unless you were a Negro and died before 1978, in which case you were punished and cursed for the sins of Cain, or for what you did in the pre-existence.

3. We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel, especially tithing and the word of wisdom. However, we do not believe that Christ's sacrifice should be discussed on Easter, as this is a more appropriate time to contemplate the martyr of Joseph Smith, our Prophet, Seer & Savior.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in Joseph Smith; second, Faith in the current version of the Book of Mormon; third, Payment of tithing for the remission of sins; fourth, Repentance for not paying tithing (but only if you catch up); fifth, Blind obedience to the current prophet and to your husband, if you are a woman; sixth, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; seventh, Baptism by complete, total, absolute immersion, in the waters, which, by the way, have been cursed, for the remission of sins; eighth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Spirit.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority to collect tithing, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof. We also believe that if any man behaves as if he was not called by God, then it is appropriate to state that the Church is perfect, it is just the people who are flawed.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, moneychangers in the temple, Young Men/Women leaders, Relief Society Presidents, Stake Mission Presidents, Young Single Adults Group Leaders, Elders Quorum Presidents, First Counselor to the President and so forth. We also believe that the primitive name for the church was "Corporation of the President."

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, faith-healing, interpretation of tongues, tearing out of tongues when you divulge endowment secrets, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly (we reserve the right to decide which verses are translated correctly and which are not); we also believe the most recent version of the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. We are currently undecided as to the divine origin of the Book of Abraham, however.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God (which may differ greatly from what He has previously revealed) by means of a comprehensive market survey of members' likes and dislikes.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent or the Middle East; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory. We also believe that our blood may be miraculously changed to that of the Tribe of Ephraim.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience as dictated by the President of the Church, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship however incorrectly, wherever wrongly, or whatever idolatrous beings they may, since Christian clergy are dimwitted hirelings of Satan.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law, unless the law of the land violates the law of God as dictated by the President of the Church, such as in prohibiting the marrying of more than one woman.

13. We believe in being honest except when lying for the Lord, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul--We believe all things that the Church President tells us, we hope all things, we have endured many things such as changes in Church teachings and conflicting revelations, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is any woman virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek to make her obedient, servile, and pregnant.

JOSEPH SMITH (et al.)

[restornu]

The Nicene is present both in Protestantism and Catholicism

Creeds may say many wonderful things in them they also showed intolerance towards others who lived among them that honor the Lord according to the dictates of their own conscience.

I asked you where in the Nicene does that occur?

Please respond or cease this absurdity

****

That was not always the case in the early days...

“Catholics Need Not Apply”

That was the sign that applicants often found on employers’ doors during the Irish, Italian, and eastern European immigration booms of the 1800s. Unfortunately, it is the sign that some modernist theologians would like to hang on the doors of the Catholic Church today.

http://thursdaynightgumbo.blogspot.com/2007/06/woodward-catholics-need-not-apply.html

[PfluegerFishin]

Christians, however, tend to be intolerant of "a different Gospel" as the apostles strongly warned against. Personally, I pray that followers of Josepth Smith believe in Christ and His atonement and worship Him so truly that their other beliefs against the Word of God are not held against them.

excellent points

I'd add that the Atonement on the Cross is crucial as Mormons believe it happened in the garden when he sweat blood, as well as the Trinitarian nature of God

Its funny in a sense - the Mormon position decries the creeds as being man made - but so freely accept the words of a self professed prophet, whom on numerous occasions has so profoundly demonstrated them to be false - In fact - they are likely to accept the words of Smith and the BOM, as true, while considering the Bible only accurate "as translated".

Through the looking glass darkly I guess....It will be revealed to them, and every knee shall bow

[restornu]

continue you are proving my case of your intolerance of others faith!

[PfluegerFishin]

wiki -

so what

creeds are creeds - even wiki cant screw them up too badly. Try to be charitable

Youve yet to explain your motives

[Godzilla]

1. Wheres the link Resty?
2. Joseph Smith did not live during the period as Jefferson and Franklin.

[Zakeet]

The LDS have creeds but they use different terms for it which amount to the same thing. Ezra Taft Benson’s “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet” is an example of this.

Benson's Fourteen Fundamentals kind of went out the window with the Mark Hoffman affair!

You may recall that with respect to the so-called First Vision, people have documented with annotations direct from Mormon historical documents the nine different versions of the vision. You can review them at your convenience HERE, where you will see rather profound differences. You will also note the first account did not appear until 1830-31 – and the official account did not appear until 1838 – a full eighteen years after it purportedly happened and at the exact moment when Joseph Smith greatly needed a magnificent event to shore up his authority and silence critics.

Mark Hofmann was a documents forger who foisted several dozen fake documents onto Mormon Church Leadership. Hofmann's amazing discoveries were purchased by devout Mormons and the donated to the Church. Writings favorable to Mormonism were placed on prominent display – writings deemed damaging to the cause were secreted away.

Hofmann's most famous fabrication was the Salamander Letter. In this writing, supposedly by Book of Mormon Witness Martin Harris, a tenth version of the First Vision surfaced. Fortunately for the Mormon Church, the first account of the visitation was extended back in time a full five years to the mid-1820's. Unfortunately for the Church, in this telling Joseph was visited by an elf who took the form of a salamander.

Mormon leadership verified the authenticity of the letter, apparently relying in large part on the opinion of forensic documents examiners.

The effects of the Salamander Letter haunt the Mormon Church to this day.

As can be seen in the photograph above, two Mormon Prophets, Spencer Kimball and Gordon Hinckley, were among the duped.

President Hinckley would later candidly admit:

I accepted [Hofmann] to come into my office on a basis of trust … I frankly admit that Hofmann tricked us. He also tricked experts from New York to Utah, however … I am not ashamed to admit that we were victimized. It is not the first time the Church has found itself in such a position. Joseph Smith was victimized again and again. The Savior was victimized. I am sorry to say that sometimes it happens. – Dew, S. (1996). Go Forward with Faith: The Biography of Gordon B. Hinckley. Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, p. 432.

But according to LDS doctrine at the time, this was impossible.

In his February 26, 1980 speech at BYU titled Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet, LDS President Ezra Taft Benson maintained the Mormon Church President spoke with inerrant authority on "any matter, temporal or spiritual ," was "not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time," and "would never lead the Church astray".

Following the Hofmann debacle, less than a decade after President Benson's pronouncement, an embarrassed Mormon Church was forced to proclaim:

Prophets are mortal men who have been ordained and chosen by God to be a mouthpiece for revelation and guidance, but that revelation only comes when God wills it, making it somewhat sporadic in both ancient and modern times. There is no expectation that every act, every decision, and every purchase by a prophet will be divinely and infallibly guided. As Joseph Smith said, "a prophet is only a prophet when acting as such." – Jeff Lindsay, The Salamander Letter and Mark Hofmann

The incident also led to the founding and naming of the Salamander Society, an organization founded by disgruntled Mormons for the purpose of Lampooning the LDS faith.

Thanks to Mark Hofmann, Mormon prophets are no longer regarded to be quite as infallible as they once were.

[Zakeet]

continue you are proving my case of your intolerance of others faith!

Is it really intolerant to point out truthful facts?

... or is that the only argument you can make in response to these facts?

[PfluegerFishin]

Me: The Nicene is present both in Protestantism and Catholicism

You: That was not always the case in the early days...

Ummm - the nicene has been around since the third or fourth century

modernist theologians do not speak for the body "catholic".

Im not sure where youre getting your information

[restornu]

Its funny in a sense - the Mormon position decries the creeds as being man made - but so freely accept the words of a self professed prophet, whom on numerous occasions has so profoundly demonstrated them to be false - In fact - they are likely to accept the words of Smith and the BOM, as true, while considering the Bible only accurate "as translated".

All that you said here is what you assume that of the LDS and you are so quick to dismiss the many of milloins who have received a witness by the Holy Ghost of the validity of the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,

When I received the witness by the power of the Holy Ghost before I ever knew or hear of Joseph Smith.

I knew nothing about the Book of Mormon the copy I receive I had for about a year I was going to toss it out but I felt a small prompting to pray about it, which I did and I received a over whemling present of Joy which I know came by the Power of the Holy Ghost.

Just me in the room with the Book of Mormon and my prayer to Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ I have always used the Bible as a benchmark and I knew that feeling I receive is the same one I have felt when I read certain passages from the Bible and the Lord Spirit bear witness to me.

So you assumption is all wet when you imply...

"In fact - they are likely to accept the words of Smith and the BOM, as true, while considering the Bible only accurate "as translated".

That is putting your spin or creed on this and not how the LDS really believe about the Bible.

To us the Bible in many places was a locked book but through the Book of Mormon many passages were unlocked. What a delight to receive more understanding of the Lord word.

Back to the topic of the thread which is about religious tolerance The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others

[restornu]

No it just shows you have a misconption of a prophet!

and are changing the subject because of your in ability towards religious tolerance

The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others

The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Resty,
I certainly don’t include DEISTS with CHRISTIANS.

Google those words. They are not the same.

It wouldn’t be right to assume dolphins are dogs either.

ampu

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Zakeet,
Excellent post!
ampu

[TradicalRC]

You can meekly submit to a bad government if you like, but I’ll be damned if this Catholic does. I’m fairly certain Jesus would be right there with me and the rest of us.

Christ submitted to the authority of both the high priests and Pilate. Nowhere does he ever advocate revolution. But Man loves recreating God in his own image...

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“I knew nothing about the Book of Mormon the copy I receive I had for about a year I was going to toss it out but I felt a small prompting to pray about it, which I did and I received a over whemling present of Joy which I know came by the Power of the Holy Ghost.”

“Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions.”

I Timothy 4:1