Posted on 12/30/2008 8:43:49 PM PST by GonzoII
Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase: The Mother of God. No one can say anything greater of her.(Martin Luther)
CHESAPEAKE, Va. (Catholic Online) - From antiquity, Mary has been called “Theotokos”, or “God-Bearer” (Mother of God). It is a relatively recent phenomenon among some Christians that this term has even become controversial. Yet since the Protestant reformation – it has. So, sadly, it is this title which prevents some Christians from experiencing Mary as the gift that she is meant to be for the whole church and for the world. The word in Greek is “Theotokos”.
The term was used as part of the popular piety of the early first millennium church. It is used throughout the Eastern Church's Liturgy, both Orthodox and Catholic. It lies at the heart of the Latin Rite's deep Marian piety and devotion. This title was a response to the early threats to 'orthodoxy' or the preservation of authentic Christian teaching. A pronouncement of an early Church Council, The Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D., insisted “… If anyone does not confess that God is truly Emmanuel, and that on this account the holy virgin is the “Theotokos” (for according to the flesh she gave birth to the word of God become flesh by birth) let him be anathema.” The Council of Ephesus, 431 AD,
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.org ...
There is also the sense of Church of apostolic origin that is local to an area, for example, the Coptic Church or the Armenian Church, as as we are known, the Latin Church.
I also agree that Jesus is present in some way everywhere and certainly with any community of believers, as Matthew 18:20 demonstrates.
However, the way Church uis used in the scripture is either the geographically local sense (the Church of Laodicea) or in the Catholic sense ("You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church", Matthew 16:18). Here the reference is to the Catholic Church as a whole. Likewise, on Matthew 18:17 the reference to the local Church ("tell the Church") cannot be to a schismatic, separated church because were it so, it could not be the court of last instance.
The scripture makes it plain that Christ and His Apostles established one holy Catholic Church ruled by bishops who are in communion between themselves and lead by St. Peter:
Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)Is Christ divided?(1 Cor. 1:13)
31... Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you [note plural], that he may sift you [plural] as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee [singular, i.e. Peter alone], that thy faith fail not: and thou [singular], being once converted, confirm thy brethren (Luke 22)
Now, this does not exclude the possibility of divisions that are to be overcome ("That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me", John 17:21) by the apostolic college, and the division between the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches is such division. The schism with the communities of faith that resulted from the so-called Reformation is not capable of being bridged. From RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH:
FIFTH QUESTION
Why do the texts of the Council and those of the Magisterium since the Council not use the title of “Church” with regard to those Christian Communities born out of the Reformation of the sixteenth century?
RESPONSE
According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery [19] cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense [20]. [...]
[19] Cf. Second Vatican Council, Decree Unitatis redintegratio, 22.3.
[20] Cf. Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration Dominus Iesus, 17.2: AAS 92 [2000-II] 758.
Ok...My curiosity is piqued. Do you have any links?
It was my understanding that Calvin and Luther rejected praying to saints and Mary to ask for intercession with God. Am I correct that they preached we should pray directly to God in Jesus name, and they rejected praying the rosary?
But...Hey! My mind is open to reading what these men had to say about these topics.
By the way,....Yes, Protestants do not pray directly to Mary, but we **DO** hold her in very high esteem and have great respect and reverence for her and her contributions to Jesus’ and His Father's plan for our redemption. We acknowledge that she was a very special and unique person to have been chosen to be the mother of Jesus.
And thank you for your patience too - and your courtesy.
Enjoy your rest...
nasa’
naw-saw’
or nacah (Psalm ‘’eb’ (4) : ‘’abad’ (6) (7)) {naw-saw’}; a primitive root; to lift, in a great variety of applications, literal and figurative, absol. and rel. (as follows):—accept, advance, arise, (able to, (armor), suffer to) bear(-er, up), bring (forth), burn, carry (away), cast, contain, desire, ease, exact, exalt (self), extol, fetch, forgive, furnish, further, give, go on, help, high, hold up, honorable (+ man), lade, lay, lift (self) up, lofty, marry, magnify, X needs, obtain, pardon, raise (up), receive, regard, respect, set (up), spare, stir up, + swear, take (away, up), X utterly, wear, yield.”
Hence other translations use the terms “accepted, showed consideration, granted” for “nasa’” as at Gen. 32:20 without the sense of the English word, “prayers”.
Lot had “spoken” or Hebrew “dabar”
” a primitive root; perhaps properly, to arrange; but used figuratively (of words), to speak; rarely (in a destructive sense) to subdue:—answer, appoint, bid, command, commune, declare, destroy, give, name, promise, pronounce, rehearse, say, speak, be spokesman, subdue, talk, teach, tell, think, use (entreaties), utter, X well, X work.”
It has much more force than simply “said” or “say” as this same word, “dabar” is used at Gen. 18:33 of God communing with or speaking with Abraham.
Certainly God wasn't praying nor was Lot when he spoke, entreated God (the angels being His spokesmen) to spare a city for Lot's escape.
But the Hebrew< “palal”, or “pray”, is used at Gen. 20:7 and is different entirely from what Lot did in making a request, speaking.
If there is an instance of “nasa’” or “dabar” being used in the same sense as the English “pray” I must have missed it, though it's possible blind as I am.
Is any of this helpful or have I simply buried the subject?
Over the years, I have posted almost 8k comments. Of these, many have been posts venting my displeasure with the tenets of the Catholic church and it’s false (in my opinion) teachings. With few exceptions, every post has been cause for Admin. reprimands of one sort or another.
As and equal opportunity basher, nothing said about any other religious group has garnered anything near the verbal reprimands received when criticizing the Catholic church.
As far as your “load of feces” comment … great debating comeback.
;-)
Catholics seem to miss the point that non-Catholics don’t place all of the beliefs of their leaders (dead or alive) above the Word of God. Luther and Calvin and others were great leaders and showed great truths that exist in the Bible, but not everything they said or believed in is Biblical.
All Christians should study the Bible and know what it says, and revere that. If others revere the facts proclaimed in the Bible, then they can be honored for that, but not placed above the written Word of God.
In context Lot sure made a request of the angel, I can't see it any other way.
The quote in your post said “prayers” and it was highlighted.
Was that to show Lot prayed to the angels? I’m trying to understand what the point of your prior post was.
I had asked, “Where in the Scriptures does anyone pray to the saints in heaven? For any reason?”
And your answer,
“In Gen. Ch. 19, Lot ask the Angels not to destroy a city and they listen to his prayers “
Did Lot pray to the angels or make a request, or are you saying there’s no difference?
I know..I’m slow on the uptake, but I also don’t want to misunderstand what you’re saying so bear with me, if possoble.
In context these things are not to be made and worshiped.
Exodus 25 "1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying:...18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. 20 Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory
Numbers 21: 8 And the LORD said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.
1 Kgs 6: 2 And the house, which king Solomon built to the Lord, was threescore cubits in length,...23 And he made in the oracle two cherubims of olive tree, of ten cubits in height. 24 One wing of the cherub was five cubits, and the other wing of the cherub was five cubits: that is, in all ten cubits, from the extremity of one wing to the extremity of the other wing. 26 The second cherub also was ten cubits: and the measure, and the work was the same in both the cherubims: 26 That is to say, one cherub was ten cubits high, and in like manner the other cherub.
1 Kgs 7: 25 And it stood upon twelve oxen, of which three looked towards the north, and three towards the west, and three towards the south, and three towards the east,... 29 And between the little crowns and the ledges were lions, and oxen, and cherubims...
Statues and pictures are visual aids to prayer and nothing more, I can pray to God in front of a statue but not to a statue.
He made a request. Yes I'm saying there is no difference, but I admit that word "to" causes problems.
What Catholics do when they pray "to" a Saint or Angel is present a request "to" the angel or saint who then gives it "to" Jesus, much as a Prayer Thread here a FR is presented "to" me, BUT, I give the request from the Prayer Thread to JESUS the ONE mediator between God and man. Jesus just allows me to ask him for something but ultimately he takes the request to the Father and obtains what I ask.
Maybe a better word Catholics could use instead of "to" is "through" because the prayer does not stop at me, an Angel or a Saint it goes on to Jesus then to the Father.
BTW I wish you a Blessed and Happy New Year! I'm nine hours into it already.
Thank you for allowing me a measure of your time, not a small thing today, we’ll have to do this again soon. Cheers!
The graven image prohibition was given to Jews. We are not Old Covenant Jews. Jesus does not repeat it and given the fact of His incarnation, the graven image prohibition makes no sense. Jesus is the image of God.
Regarding some perhaps worshipping Mary in the true sense of worship, well that is wrong. There is indeed a movement to incorporate Mary into the Holy Trinity. Those people are wrong, and the Catholic Church did nothing to encourage that. They are like the Protestants, a movement that wants the traditions of men to supercede the historical Deposit of Faith. They are wrong just like Luther was wrong.
Happy New Year. If there are any points in your post I should have adressed and I did not, please point that out. I have two bottles of champaigne inside of me, and so should you.
I've studied some of the thread you gave me about Icons.
When you have the time let me know what the definition of the word "canon" means as regards iconography
Take care.
If I might add a few things that might help clarify some stuff, off the top of my head...
-Prayers to Mary are considered ‘private devotions’
-Private devotions are -not- taught, nor are they proclaimed, by the Church to be doctrine or dogma. This means ya don’t have to do it, at all. It is not required by faith or practice.
Etymology of worship and ‘pray to’:
-Modern english speaking Catholics don’t use the word ‘worship’ unless it’s in relation to God. So, for us in 2009 (Happy new year and all that, btw) there is no “worship” of Mary, period.
-However (sorry), there are traditional theologians who would still use the word ‘worship’ to describe ‘pray to’ like we’re talking about here, but, they mean ‘pray to’ in our 2009 here and now language. It’s one of the “3 degrees of worship”, one was for God, one for saints, and one for Mary.
So if you hear someone say ‘we don’t pray to Mary’ you can tell them that that’s bad terminology.
Yeah, we can see how people might get the mistaken impression we’re worshiping Mary idols, putting Mary before God or on par with Him with the phrase Mother of God, and all that. But you’re wrong. Do try to understand there’s a couple thousand years behind everything the Church does...
Please excuse me, I’m too tired and still a little inebriated, so I’m not getting into the whole what does the phrase “Mother of God” mean right at the moment. I think it was explained already anyways.
btw that was cool about the nasa thing count-your-change, I didn’t know that’s what that word meant
Can you point to a single publication of the Roman Catholic Church that says this?
What you'll find is that they ask her to do the same thing that you would ask of any loved one, to pray FOR you TO God.
The holiday cheer can bite us, can’t it. Anyway your explanation of how you view prayer was most appreciated.
With thanks.
Sorry. I am persuaded by many Biblical scholars and by many Bible commentaries, written by greek scholars, that the CATHOLIC interpertation of Matthew 16:18 is mis-guided and wrong. Have a Happy New Year.
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