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Who Needs a Creed? (part 1 of 12)
NCR ^ | February 8, 2009 | Mark Shea

Posted on 02/05/2009 1:19:16 PM PST by NYer

I became a Christian with the help of a small group of believers on my college dorm floor. As is common in such circles, we believed that “the Bible alone” was sufficient to know Christ’s revelation and live as he wanted us to. We didn’t recite the words “No Creed but the Bible” (itself a sort of creed), but we would have sympathized with it.

We had a great fear of the word “religion.”

Christianity (I was taught) was a relationship, not a religion. “Religion” had about it the savor of something stiff, dried out, mummified. It was (we thought) the husk left over when the juice of a living relationship with God had evaporated. It was the cardboard container the food came in — a thing to be thrown away, avoided and despised. And creeds seemed to be a dose of “religion” in chemical purity: an attempt to put the living God back in the box.

The problem came as we tried to live out the Gospel in the real world. It’s all well and good to be “Spirit-led,” footloose and fancy-free, a leaf on the wind, when you are in college and you are singing chipper tunes about God loving you to the thrum of a guitar.

But as time goes on and your prayer group graduates and tries to become a local church and starts to attract a few strangers from the neighborhood who aren’t part of your cozy circle of friends, things get complicated.

Fairly quickly, somebody asks “What do you believe?” and you can no longer rely on a sort of network of unspoken knowledge that you and your friends are decent folk who wouldn’t believe or do anything at odds with the Gospel. You have to try to articulate what, precisely, you believe in a way that is intelligible to somebody who doesn’t know you.

And so we found ourselves, a group of perhaps 30 young adults, huddled in a room with a blackboard, trying to summarize what we, as Bible-believing charismatic Christians, believed, in a “Statement of Faith.”

It was, in its own way, a hilarious afternoon (at least in retrospect). The chalkboard was soon filled with different clauses and points of doctrine, connected in a baffling web of arrows that looked like a football diagram in a Goofy cartoon.

After several hours, we gave it up as a bad job and went home.

A week or so later, the pastor just pounded out something on his own typewriter about how we believed in the Bible, God the Father, Jesus his son, the Holy Spirit, and being a community of Spirit-filled servants.

I thought to myself dimly that it reminded me of something I’d heard somewhere, but my lack of familiarity with historical Christianity had prevented me from having much familiarity with the Twelve Apostles or Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. When I did discover them a few years later, it began to dawn on me that we could have saved a lot of time just copying them instead of reinventing the wheel with corners on it.

Pagans didn’t have creeds.

You don’t need a creed for a collection of tales about gods in Asgaard, Olympus or the Land East of the Sun and West of the Moon. The myths of Greece or Rome or the folk tales of Germany and the Great Plains required only poets and bards, not creeds.

It was only when heaven began to upset the apple cart by involving itself in the mundane day-to-day events of a very real group of humans called “Israel,” whom the Lord God had brought from Egypt, that something like a creedal formula began to emerge. Suddenly, something had happened, not Once Upon a Time but to a specific group of people in history.

Moreover, this people was constantly being pressured by its neighbors and by its own sinful tendencies to forget what had happened. And so their history became one long and careful act of remembering, not imagining — designed to make sure that their past was not lost.

When the Church began, that need to remember and summarize what had happened continued. And since what had happened was so strange — and so fraught with the possibility of being misunderstood in a thousand ways — the Church also was immediately committed to creating summaries of the faith that, while initially brief (“Jesus is Lord”), expanded in length over time to make sure that the broad contours of the basic story and its meaning were not lost.

That’s because the central command around which the entire Church was built was: “Do this in memory of me.” No creed, no memory. No memory, no Eucharist.

Over the next dozen installments of this column, therefore, we are going to take an extended look at the creed and see how this long act of remembering still speaks to us today in the heart of our Eucharistic Church.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: creeds

1 posted on 02/05/2009 1:19:16 PM PST by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Hope I can remember to post the next 11.


2 posted on 02/05/2009 1:20:44 PM PST by NYer ("Run from places of sin as from a plague." - St. John Climacus)
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To: NYer
WOW!

What a bunch of convoluted people.

It's too bad they don't know their Bible otherwise they wouldn't be so confused. The Bible, God's Word is sufficient as He claims it is:

2Tim.3:16

[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

3 posted on 02/05/2009 1:22:32 PM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh
The word "sufficient" isn't there. "Profitable" and "sufficient" aren't the same thing. If you go on, you'll find out that Scripture is required to perfect the man of God. "Required" and "sufficient" still aren't the same thing.

The doctrine you're trying to teach isn't in the Bible.

4 posted on 02/05/2009 1:33:47 PM PST by Campion
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To: NYer
As is common in such circles, we believed that “the Bible alone” was sufficient to know Christ’s revelation and live as he wanted us to.

Perhaps I am misreading your comment but the Scripture states: (paraphrasing) The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life). You can know the Bible word for word but if you do not have the Spirit of Christ, you only have an intellectual knowledge or concept of God's Word.

The Scripture also says: You cannot call Jesus the Christ the except by the Holy Spirit. (again paraphrasing)

I am not trying to be disagreeable, just making a point. I hope and pray you either have or will receive the Spirit of the Lord. God bless.

5 posted on 02/05/2009 2:03:43 PM PST by Know et al (Everything I know I read in the newspaper and that's the reason for my ignorance: Will Rogers)
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To: NYer
Christianity (I was taught) was a relationship, not a religion.

A bit of evangelicalese that I don't really know how to parse. I'm not sure what they mean when someone says that. Everybody has a "relationship" with God, in a sense. Either wrath or grace.

The problem came as we tried to live out the Gospel in the real world.

Another "wha??" moment, if you think the Christian gospel is news, with specific content.

and you can no longer rely on a sort of network of unspoken knowledge

Any bets on the chances of a christological heresy in at least some members of the group?

And so we found ourselves, a group of perhaps 30 young adults, huddled in a room with a blackboard, trying to summarize what we, as Bible-believing charismatic Christians, believed, in a “Statement of Faith.”

"Of the making of statements of faith there is no end, and much reading of them is a weariness of the flesh.", as the Preacher in Jerusalem said, sort of.

6 posted on 02/05/2009 2:26:30 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("I'm so thankful for the active obedience of Christ. No hope without it." -- J. Gresham Machen)
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To: nmh

‘The pillar and foundation of truth’ is ???
1 Tim 3:15

The Church!
not an invisible church!
not a symbolic church of all believers
but the guiding church.


7 posted on 02/05/2009 2:47:04 PM PST by Beeline
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To: restornu

This article might help understand why poeple call the Articales of Faith a creed.


8 posted on 02/05/2009 3:08:04 PM PST by fproy2222
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To: fproy2222
This article might help understand why poeple call the Articales of Faith a creed.
 
 
Uh.... because it IS!

 
 
 

INTRODUCTORY NOTE
 
The Pearl of Great Price is a selection of choice materials touching many significant aspects of the faith and doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These items were produced by the Prophet Joseph Smith and were published in the Church periodicals of his day.
 
The first collection of materials carrying the title Pearl of Great Price was made in 1851 by Elder Franklin D. Richards, then a member of the Council of the Twelve and president of the British Mission. Its purpose was to make more readily accessible some important articles that had had limited circulation in the time of Joseph Smith. As Church membership increased throughout Europe and America there was a need to make these items available. The Pearl of Great Price received wide use and subsequently became a standard work of the Church by action of the First Presidency and the general conference in Salt Lake City on October 10, 1880.
 
Several revisions have been made in the contents as the needs of the Church have required. In 1878 portions of the Book of Moses not contained in the first edition were added. In 1902 certain parts of the Pearl of Great Price that duplicated material also published in the Doctrine and Covenants were omitted. Arrangement into chapters and verses, with footnotes, was done in 1902. The first publication in double-column pages, with index, was in 1921. No other changes were made until April 1976, when two items of revelation were added. In 1979 these two items were removed from the Pearl of Great Price and placed in the Doctrine and Covenants, where they now appear as Sections 137 and 138. In the present edition some changes have been made to bring the text into conformity with earlier documents.
 
Following is a brief introduction to the present contents:
Selections from the Book of Moses. An extract from the book of Genesis of Joseph Smith’s Translation of the Bible, which he began in June 1830. See History of the Church, vol. 1, pp. 98-101, 131-139.
 
The Book of Abraham. A translation from some Egyptian papyri that came into the hands of Joseph Smith in 1835, containing writings of the patriarch Abraham. The translation was published serially in the Times and Seasons beginning March 1, 1842, at Nauvoo, Illinois. See History of the Church, vol. 4, pp. 519-534.
 
Joseph Smith—Matthew. An extract from the testimony of Matthew in Joseph Smith’s Translation of the Bible. See Doctrine and Covenants 45: 60-61 for the divine injunction to begin the translation of the New Testament.
 
Joseph Smith—History. Excerpts from Joseph Smith’s official testimony and history, which he prepared in 1838, and which was published serially in the Times and Seasons in Nauvoo, Illinois, beginning on March 15, 1842. See History of the Church, vol. 1, pp. 1-44, for the complete account.
 
The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. A statement by Joseph Smith published in the Times and Seasons March 1, 1842, in company with a short history of the Church that was popularly known as the Wentworth Letter. See History of the Church, vol. 4, pp. 535-541.
 
 
 



 
Here is the creed of the LDS Organization; based in Salt Lake City:
 


 

Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 

 

 
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541
 
 

  1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
  2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
  3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
  4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
  6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
  7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
  8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
  9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
  10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
  11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
  12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
  13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

 
 
 
Definitions of creed:

9 posted on 02/06/2009 4:12:09 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Thanks for trying to help.

And thanks for spreading our teachings, even if you are trying to prove them wrong.

I think that this thread, a thread about why someone thinks he might need a creed, is not the place for you to do that.

I was directing someone here who might learn what you have been trying to teach, but because of your stile, you have not been able to help her understand.

I think we might want to get out of this thread and let others have it back. I hope the damage has not already been done.


10 posted on 02/06/2009 8:17:10 AM PST by fproy2222
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To: NYer

Hope I can remember to post the next 11.

++

Please do, I have found this one helpful.

thanks.


11 posted on 02/06/2009 8:19:00 AM PST by fproy2222
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To: nmh
The Bible, God's Word is sufficient as He claims it is

Let’s look at a little more of the passage you site:

“But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”2Tim 3:14-17

First, the faith in Christ Timothy learned did not come from a book. He was taught this faith by the early church that did not have a Bible. Second, the Scripture referred to by Paul is the Old Testament. Timothy could not have studied the new testament in his infancy, since it wasn’t written yet.

Paul shows how Christ is hidden in the OT, and revealed in the NT.

A few questions:

1. Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?

2. Other than the specific command to John to write the Revelation, where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?

3. Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?

4. Where did the table of contents of the Bible come from?

12 posted on 02/06/2009 9:44:04 AM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is an EVIL like no other, and must be ERADICATED)
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To: fproy2222
I think that this thread, a thread about why someone thinks he might need a creed, is not the place for you to do that.

 
 
 
 
 2 Corinthians 11:12-15
 12.  And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
 13.  For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
 
 
Thanks; but I'll take my chances...

13 posted on 02/06/2009 9:47:55 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Thats a hideous quote to be throwing about!
Think about it, ecumenism is about fair debate,
not throwing someone under a bus with a quote!
Especially with a quote that can be played ping pong
with.


14 posted on 02/06/2009 10:38:34 AM PST by Beeline
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To: Beeline

Did you mean to say that 2 Corinthians 11:12-15 was a hideous quote? It seemed that way - and I hope you didn’t mean that.


15 posted on 02/06/2009 10:44:37 AM PST by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: colorcountry

Quit playing immature games!


16 posted on 02/06/2009 11:14:35 AM PST by Beeline
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To: Beeline

What?


17 posted on 02/06/2009 11:21:19 AM PST by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: All

WOW!

What a bunch of convoluted people.

I am further amazed at those that call God the liar and believe fallible man!

Truly amazing!

It’s too bad they don’t know their Bible otherwise they wouldn’t be so confused. The Bible, God’s Word is sufficient as He claims it is:

2Tim.3:16

[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

God doesn’t lie.
Man does.
I see people buy into man’s lies.

It is even sadder is people don’t even understand who the church is. It’s the body of believers!

Acts chapter 2, for those of you who bother to read God’s Word ... the formation of one of the first groups of followers of Jesus Christ...a church. :)

Acts 2:42

They were continually devoting themselves to:

apostles’ teaching

fellowship,

breaking of bread

prayer.

I sure wouldn’t want to be one of those that looks to man for “truth”. You will not find as is evidenced here in this thread.

I understand the “times” we live in. All this Bible bashing and God bashing gives more urgent meaning to this verse in that dreaded Bible that many shun on this thread to validate false teachings:

2Tim.4:3

[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Indeed! The evidence is on this thread.

Tit.1:9

[9] Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Yes, Matthew your words couldn’t be more clear:

Matt.7:14

[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Few read their Bible and fewer and fewer elevate God and His Words above fallible man.

I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes ... as they stand before Him explaining or trying to explain why His Word, in the Bible didn’t superceded man’s contradictory words. What a sad day it will be for those poor souls.


18 posted on 02/06/2009 1:12:38 PM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh

They were continually devoting themselves to:

apostles’ teaching

fellowship,

breaking of bread

prayer.

 

 



NIV Acts 6:3-5
 3.  Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them
 4.  and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word."
 5.  This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism.
 

NIV Acts 11:19-26
 19.  Now those who had been scattered by the persecution in connection with Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, telling the message only to Jews.
 20.  Some of them, however, men from Cyprus and Cyrene, went to Antioch and began to speak to Greeks also, telling them the good news about the Lord Jesus.
 21.  The Lord's hand was with them, and a great number of people believed and turned to the Lord.
 22.  News of this reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch.
 23.  When he arrived and saw the evidence of the grace of God, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts.
 24.  He was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith, and a great number of people were brought to the Lord.
 25.  Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul,
 26.  and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
 

NIV Acts 13:12
   When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.
 

NIV Acts 17:16-19
 16.  While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols.
 17.  So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.
 18.  A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.
 19.  Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting?"
 

NIV Acts 18:11
   So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
 

NIV Romans 6:17
   But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
 

NIV Romans 12:6-7
 6.  We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his  faith.
 7.  If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach;
 
 

 

Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
 
 
Romans 6:17
   But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
 

 Romans 15:4
   For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
 

 Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
 
 
1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
 

1 Corinthians 11:1-2
 1.  Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.
 
 

2 Corinthians 11:12
  And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 
 
 
Ephesians 4:14
   Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 3:6
   In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.
 

 1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
 

 1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.
 

 1 Timothy 4:11-13
 11.  Command and teach these things.
 12.  Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.
 13.  Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.
 
 
 2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
 
 
2 Timothy 2:2
  And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.
 

2 Timothy 3:10-11
 10.  You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance,
 11.  persecutions, sufferings--what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them.
 
 
Hebrews 13:8-9
 8.  Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
 9.  Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them.
 
 
2 John 1:10
   If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.
 
 
Jude 1:3
  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
 


Titus 2:1
  You must  teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.


19 posted on 02/07/2009 4:35:47 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Beeline
 
BeeLine; huh?
 
 
 
 


 
Where else but UTAH??
 



 
 
 
Stop for some Java!
 
 
 

20 posted on 02/07/2009 5:04:11 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Utah Binger; colorcountry; greyfoxx39

Home sweet home? (Above)


21 posted on 02/07/2009 5:05:05 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
This is the Place
22 posted on 02/07/2009 5:44:30 AM PST by Utah Binger (Quadruple bypass surgery is for ornery old bastards)
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To: Elsie
Home sweet home?

But only as long as you stay sweet.

23 posted on 02/07/2009 5:51:53 AM PST by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: nmh
It is even sadder is people don’t even understand who the church is. It’s the body of believers!

This cannot be true, if you believe the Bible! The Church of the Bible is one, and teaches the Truth, guided by the Holy Spirit.

“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13

“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15

Here Christ says, and Paul reaffirms, that the Church will always teach the TRUTH. So which “body of believers” teaches the truth?

How would you make sense of the following?

"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Mat 81:15-18

Where do you take your concerns? Makes no sense whatsoever without the visible Church Christ established with teaching authority, and the power to loose and bind. Christians can’t even agree on what the meaning of the word “is” is.

The Church of the apostles was definitely one: "There is one body and one spirit," Paul wrote, "just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all" (Eph. 4:4-5). Paul linked this unity to the Church's common Eucharistic bread: "Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of one bread" (1 Cor. 10:17). Jesus had promised at the outset that "there would be one flock, one shepherd" (John 10:16).

Think about it. Would Christ establish his Church – to teach the way, the truth – and allow thousands of interpretation as to what is the truth? If the Church doesn’t teach the Truth, Christ is a liar. If He would allow multiple versions of Truth, he’d be an idiot. I don’t believe He is either.

24 posted on 02/07/2009 8:12:44 AM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is an EVIL like no other, and must be ERADICATED)
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To: nmh
2Tim.4:3

[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Indeed! The evidence is on this thread.
Indeed!!! The evidence is right there in your post.
25 posted on 02/07/2009 8:16:16 AM PST by Petronski (For the next few years, Gethsemane will not be marginal. We will know that garden. -- Cdl. Stafford)
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To: nmh
It’s too bad they don’t know their Bible otherwise they wouldn’t be so confused. The Bible, God’s Word is sufficient as He claims it is:

2Tim.3:16

[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

God doesn’t lie.
Man does.
What, you mean like claiming a verse says sufficient when plainly it does not?

I guess you have a point.

26 posted on 02/07/2009 8:18:16 AM PST by Petronski (For the next few years, Gethsemane will not be marginal. We will know that garden. -- Cdl. Stafford)
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To: Tennessee Nana

The mormon articles of faith are a creed...


27 posted on 02/07/2009 7:03:17 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: FatherofFive; verga; nmh
I find it interesting how some people can't answer simple questions about their eternal salvation.
28 posted on 02/08/2009 7:47:56 PM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is an EVIL like no other, and must be ERADICATED)
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To: Beeline
"Quit playing immature games!"

Mark.

29 posted on 09/29/2009 5:34:26 AM PDT by Earthdweller (Harvard won the election again...so what's the problem.......?)
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